oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Heh! They could issue all their Air Force pilots with pagers and tell 'em to go get jobs in commerce. 'When we need you we'll page you..... no more training flights needed, you know it all by now'...!!!!
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Arming teachers is a great idea
- Thread starter Jollybear
- Start date
Them's fight'n words.
He's one of me favorite comedians of all time.
Actually, my experience with ex-military types is quite broad.....customer, client, tenant, employee, & friend. What I notice is that one cannot assume appropriate weapons training, except that Marines know how to handle rifles.So because you hired some military types for property-services work or whatever, you now think they won't be suitable for guarding duties?
I wouldn't say "beyond"....just "different".
I propose something better yet cheaper than what you want.
You don't know what rent-a-cops are like here.
They'd have their use here & there though.
Dang, I was just about to accuse you of not caring about kids
because your approach isn't as good or achievable as mine.
But I decided not to take the low road.
I'm magnanimous that way.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
An excerpt which I also had argued earlier:
Recent school shootings have prompted renewed debate regarding the idea of arming teachers or other school personnel to fend off attacks by armed intruders or even students. Similar arguments were put forward by the gun lobby following the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The arguments against arming teachers are multiple. The gun, by definition, would potentially be available to every student, teacher, and school visitor. Moreover, those contemplating armed attacks on schools will know that a gun is available and will act accordingly, and as the Columbine shooting starkly demonstrated, the attackers will have the element of surprise on their side.
Armed guards confronted the Columbine killers, but could not stop them from carrying out their plan to massacre fellow students and then commit suicide. An armed school resource officer engaged Eric Harris in a gun fight, but was unable to stop Harris from entering the school. A county deputy also fired shots at Harris to no avail. In fact, highly trained police officers, whose only job is law enforcement, all too often fail to use firearms successfully:
- One study found that 21 percent of officers killed with a handgun were shot with their own service weapon.
- Trained law enforcement officials have only an average 20 percent hit ratio in armed confrontations meaning that only 20 percent of shots fired hit the intended target.
Experience also teaches that when police officers fire their weapons, they sometimes make grave mistakes in deciding when deadly force is justified. Teachers will not likely perform any better. Moreover, the close quarters of a classroom may make it more difficult, not less, for teachers to effectively use deadly force against an assailant:
-From 1990 to 1999, nearly 75 percent of police officers feloniously killed by suspects died within a 10-foot radius of the offender. This area is known as “the killing zone” because of the acute danger it represents to police officers.
It will also be a huge burden for school districts, individual schools, and teachers to ensure that firearms are not lost or stolen:
300 guns used in the federally administered program to arm commercial airline pilots were lost in one 60-day period in 2004 according to pilot organizations.
Even federal law enforcement agencies have problems keeping track of firearms:
The Department of Homeland Security reported 289 firearms as lost during fiscal years 2006 through 2008. Most losses occurred because officers did not properly secure firearms.
Another serious threat is unintentional discharge. Many handguns, including popular models used by police departments, can fire when dropped or bumped. One errant bullet could kill a teacher, student, or other innocent bystander. The focus should remain on preventing guns from getting into schools, rather than relying on teachers or other education professionals to prevail in a shoot-out.
See:http://www.ncdsv.org/images/VPC_Arm-teachers-the-facts-argue-against-it.pdf
Recent school shootings have prompted renewed debate regarding the idea of arming teachers or other school personnel to fend off attacks by armed intruders or even students. Similar arguments were put forward by the gun lobby following the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Littleton, Colorado. The arguments against arming teachers are multiple. The gun, by definition, would potentially be available to every student, teacher, and school visitor. Moreover, those contemplating armed attacks on schools will know that a gun is available and will act accordingly, and as the Columbine shooting starkly demonstrated, the attackers will have the element of surprise on their side.
Armed guards confronted the Columbine killers, but could not stop them from carrying out their plan to massacre fellow students and then commit suicide. An armed school resource officer engaged Eric Harris in a gun fight, but was unable to stop Harris from entering the school. A county deputy also fired shots at Harris to no avail. In fact, highly trained police officers, whose only job is law enforcement, all too often fail to use firearms successfully:
- One study found that 21 percent of officers killed with a handgun were shot with their own service weapon.
- Trained law enforcement officials have only an average 20 percent hit ratio in armed confrontations meaning that only 20 percent of shots fired hit the intended target.
Experience also teaches that when police officers fire their weapons, they sometimes make grave mistakes in deciding when deadly force is justified. Teachers will not likely perform any better. Moreover, the close quarters of a classroom may make it more difficult, not less, for teachers to effectively use deadly force against an assailant:
-From 1990 to 1999, nearly 75 percent of police officers feloniously killed by suspects died within a 10-foot radius of the offender. This area is known as “the killing zone” because of the acute danger it represents to police officers.
It will also be a huge burden for school districts, individual schools, and teachers to ensure that firearms are not lost or stolen:
300 guns used in the federally administered program to arm commercial airline pilots were lost in one 60-day period in 2004 according to pilot organizations.
Even federal law enforcement agencies have problems keeping track of firearms:
The Department of Homeland Security reported 289 firearms as lost during fiscal years 2006 through 2008. Most losses occurred because officers did not properly secure firearms.
Another serious threat is unintentional discharge. Many handguns, including popular models used by police departments, can fire when dropped or bumped. One errant bullet could kill a teacher, student, or other innocent bystander. The focus should remain on preventing guns from getting into schools, rather than relying on teachers or other education professionals to prevail in a shoot-out.
See:http://www.ncdsv.org/images/VPC_Arm-teachers-the-facts-argue-against-it.pdf
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
OMG...................
Military types know themselves better in tough situations.
They're not any kind of cops. They're (mostly) civilians with citizen's powers but with good training they can know more about those powers and how to use them.
If private security officers are given good training, support and conditions, and feel valued and respected, then the difference in their efficiency just rises and rises. Treat 'em as rubbish and you'll get.........
Unfair! I feel downcast 'n heartbroken.......... but I won't call you a snivelling grobster, 'cos it's against the rules. I didn't say that you didn't care about kids, I said that you need to 'show' that you put your kids before gun-rights n stuff.
Not to mention an off guard teacher having their weapon seized and used on themselves and others!
Talk about ready access.... Only Americans can understand this obsession with weapons. You are in more danger from your own armed citizens than you are from any perceived enemy!!! How can you not see this?
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
In our next lecture class this is how teachers will show up........
Jollybear
Hey
Yeah, but face a killer who you know doesn't care about their own life anymore and you just might discover yourself to be weeing involuntarily as you freeze solid to the spot, wishing a properly trained security guard had been controlling access.
And I'm not being rude, shock n fear causes dreadful results in untrained, unready folks.
But your bike-ride....... no probs with that.
The bike was only a point that after training one dont lose the skill.
And not all people will freeze in the face of a shooter not caring for his life. Some will use there training they got, and use there gun.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
This is all just a bit different to riding a bike.
High conflict confrontation is an adrenaline-crunching, bone shaking, freezing condition for most, and you need masses of training to cope with it. Training and re-training can help the body-mind to react when the person's emotions are in lock-down.
What training?
I notice that you missed out replying to my question (to another) about responses.
Please do show us how easy this would be.
Imagine that you are teaching Geography to 20 15yr old students in a classroom situated on the school's rear elevation wall, with three large double-glazed windows looking out on playing fields to the rear, with one side opening window (for fire egress regulations).
The classroom door opens onto an internal long corridor which connects other classrooms, fire escape routes and access to the central part of the building.
You hear gunshot noises from somewhere deep within the property. Your students react by beginning to talk amongst themselves and becoming restless. Another three gun-noises occur.
OK....... now...... in exact order, what exactly are you going to do? Come on, it's only a bike ride.
I was going to rate this as funny but its really not....some people are serious about this madness.
Epic Beard Man
Bearded Philosopher
I was going to rate this as funny but its really not....some people are serious about this madness.
I am serious as well. Arming teachers is the stupidest idea.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
Please Miss....... I did it. I ticked that funny ticky thing.I was going to rate this as funny but its really not....some people are serious about this madness.
I just thought that kind of post to be a way of showing how ridiculous this cleapskate, dangerous, irresponsible, unprincipled idea of asking teachers to carry guns and become the school gun-slingers really is.
And I wonder what folks will say about teachers who don't want to carry guns................... ??
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Kangaroo Feathers
Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
Response? Shoot 'em both and you're sure one of them is the bad guy...right?
The other one is just 'collateral damage'.....'friendly fire'....or a mistake.
oldbadger
Skanky Old Mongrel!
It is relevant, sure.
This poor lady was trained, I assume, and this lady forgot her training, possibly because her attention was redirected into other issues and matters.
I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. Of course it is obvious to arm teachers and to have machine-gun posts in every classroom - that's what happens elsewhere isn't it? Oh, they appear to be more civilised.
PS Sorry about a view from outside being a bit negative.
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I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. Of course it is obvious to arm teachers and to have machine-gun posts in every classroom - that's what happens elsewhere isn't it? Oh, they appear to be more civilised.
PS Sorry about a view from outside being a bit negative.
I know I should just keep my big fat gob shut on this subject, but it is hard!
As a teacher, I think Teachers should have the option of bearing arms in the classroom. I have personally taught at schools and in classrooms where there was credible and targeted threats of shootings. As a Marine Corps veteran I am quite familiar both with guns and facing gun carrying hostile enemies.
Frankly I am fed up with some of the inane comments and straw man blather I have seen by some here. It is also quite obvious that some people commenting are ignorant about guns or what goes on in classrooms or both. Instead they want to deny teachers the right to defend themselves (and more importantly their students!) in the best way possible, simply to satisfy their own social justice warrior mind trips.
Anyone that wants to deny teachers the option to bear arms can step up and teach in these front line classrooms unarmed. Until then, they can take a hike.
Frankly I am fed up with some of the inane comments and straw man blather I have seen by some here. It is also quite obvious that some people commenting are ignorant about guns or what goes on in classrooms or both. Instead they want to deny teachers the right to defend themselves (and more importantly their students!) in the best way possible, simply to satisfy their own social justice warrior mind trips.
Anyone that wants to deny teachers the option to bear arms can step up and teach in these front line classrooms unarmed. Until then, they can take a hike.
Yes, because allowing teachers to bear arms to protect themselves and their students will inevitably result in machine gun posts in the classrooms.
I can't believe this thread has gone on for so long. Of course it is obvious to arm teachers and to have machine-gun posts in every classroom - that's what happens elsewhere isn't it? Oh, they appear to be more civilised.
PS Sorry about a view from outside being a bit negative.