As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

[Augustus]

sorry i don't trust Wikipedia .

Do you dispute the fact that these quotes are from highly regarded books on the Sirah written by Muslims?

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar): Biography of the Prophet: Sheikh Safi-ur-Rahman al-Mubarkpuri: 9781591440710: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: The Life of Muhammad (9780892591374): Muhammad Husayn Haykal, Isma'il Ragi Al-Faruqi: Books

 

[leibowde84]

Slavery in the past was the result of war , like the captive .

the slavery is disppear in Islam world because , Islam enoucage to free slaves , make it as tax for bad deed , or praying God .

actuatly the slavery is still exist by "new names" , as strippers ,like hareem in othman empire.

I mean society could content multi-understanding or practice (i obey my religion law , someone else don't care about practice his religion )


you source about" Muhammad's biographies " is fake .about had childern as slave .

as i know Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was married to Christain slave called Marriah Kibtiyah ,she born to him Ibrahim

How can you possibly think that strippers are "slaves?" That seems to be very far from reality, as they are most often the ones taking advantage. And, they are by no means forced into this occupation, and, as it is a legal one, they are free to leave it at any time.

 

[Godobeyer]

Do you dispute the fact that these quotes are from highly regarded books on the Sirah written by Muslims?

Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum (The Sealed Nectar): Biography of the Prophet: Sheikh Safi-ur-Rahman al-Mubarkpuri: 9781591440710: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: The Life of Muhammad (9780892591374): Muhammad Husayn Haykal, Isma'il Ragi Al-Faruqi: Books

Can you please post a thread about these links to verify their credibility in Islam Dir .


I think there is much lies in these sources ,so who translate them put lies between the lines.

you seems jump the whole story to end ?
I heard a story of a Jewish tribe betrayed Muslims (broke the deal with Muslims ) Muslims ,that cost huge lose number of martyns in Muslim side , so the Muslims revenged, killed the traitors , so the women becomes slaves to Muslims .

 

[Godobeyer]

How can you possibly think that strippers are "slaves?" That seems to be very far from reality, as they are most often the ones taking advantage. And, they are by no means forced into this occupation, and, as it is a legal one, they are free to leave it at any time.

it's just another method/kind of slavery

strippers are slaves to money payers in period of time,so Hareem , this dirty job , I considere it as humilating the degnity of that woman by money to pleasure men desire .

 

[leibowde84]

it's just another method/kind of slavery

strippers are slaves to money payers in period of time,so Hareem , this dirty job , I considere it as humilating the degnity of that woman by money to pleasure men desire .

Why? A lot of them love their job. They enjoy selling themselves sincerely, and they make a ridiculous amount of money as well. Just out of curiosity, why specifically do you consider it humiliating?

 

[leibowde84]

it's just another method/kind of slavery

strippers are slaves to money payers in period of time,so Hareem , this dirty job , I considere it as humilating the degnity of that woman by money to pleasure men desire .

Here is the definition of "slave." How can you consider a paid employee, not being forced to do anything against their will or give away any rights/freedoms, be included in this definition? Or, are you just using your own, subjective definition of a clearly defined term?

slave
slāv/
noun
historical

1. 1.
   a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
   synonyms: historicalserf, vassal, thrall; More
   

 

[Godobeyer]

Why? A lot of them love their job. They enjoy selling themselves sincerely, and they make a ridiculous amount of money as well. Just out of curiosity, why specifically do you consider it humiliating?

EDITED
humiliating is not about they gain much money .

you just say it " selling themselves" so they are slaves for money, for a period of time to someone or group of men.

so it's about trade (sell and buy) privet parts of body to sexual activities ?

so it's about human humiliate(bought) someone else by money, it's ridiculous ,because they sell their degnity and honor (body) by money .

so money actually used to humilating in this case .

 

[Godobeyer]

Here is the definition of "slave." How can you consider a paid employee, not being forced to do anything against their will or give away any rights/freedoms, be included in this definition? Or, are you just using your own, subjective definition of a clearly defined term?

slave
slāv/
noun
historical

1. 1.
   a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.
   synonyms: historicalserf, vassal, thrall; More

you seems don't get my point yet :

the employee don't sell their privet bodies to got money .

 

[leibowde84]

humiliating is not about money .

you just say it " selling themselves" so they are slaves for money, for a period of time to someone or group of men.

so it's about trade (sell and buy) ?

so it's about human humiliate(bought) someone else by money, it's ridiculous ,because they sell their degnity and honor (body) by money .

so money actually used to humilating in this case .

I guess I don't consider them as "selling their dignity and honor." If they do actually enjoy it, why is it giving up their dignity and honor? You cannot be a "slave for money." That is a logical impossibility. If someone gets paid, they are not a slave, according to the clear definition of the term. I am open to the diginity and honor argument, as long as you can explain/substantiate it (without religious dogma/beliefs of course, as it is innapropriate to force religious beliefs about sex on anyone), but the slavery claim is logically impossible, as I have explained.

 

[leibowde84]

you seems don't get my point yet :

the employee don't sell their privet bodies to got money .

Sure they do. Does a construction worker not "sell" the use of their body? What about a participant in a scientific study or a hockey player? They all sell their body, but, for some reason, you think that selling one's body in a sexual way is crossing the line. I am interested in why you think this ... beyond relgious teachings of course.

 

[serp777]

Since the time of the Bible did not surf because I understand the spirit of the Gospel
Which it rejects slavery
And down when you want to browse the Gospel
I found the following words
1. Jesus did not exercise this social system which is ideal for Christians
2. Jesus said love is the first commandment
That's the spirit of the Gospel does not believe in slavery
3. In a letter to the Colossians Paul the following words (2 and 3)
Sh not there remains a Jew or non-Jew nor circumcised or not circumcised or not Aagami Burberry nor slave or free
But Christ is all about)
I hope you are reading this message
4. Paul the Apostle asked Emancipation
Read the (3 and 4) of the same message
(Paul the Apostle says (Dear Sirs Abedkm treated fairly and equally, knowing that while you are Lord in Heaven)
These texts of the Bible supports rejecting the Christian attitude to slavery
Because the first commandment is to love Christ
It is known love hated slavery
This is a brief pink you
But Islam is very different
He believed in slavery approach to those who believe in him

Some of this stuff makes no sense. And your formatting is bizarre. Its like you're trying to write your argument in poetry format, but it looks really bad.

I'm asking how you know the mind of God. You say from the bible. i say Leviticus and exodus support slavery on multiple occasions. You say but look at the new testament. And I say in response that you pick and choose your morals, which shows that you are just making a subjective interpretation; you don't actually know the mind of God or have special knowledge. I also ask how yo uknow you're right but you don't give me any explanations besides some contradictory bible quotes. I already agreed the bible has numerous contradictions.

"That's the spirit of the Gospel does not believe in slavery"
According to you. Leviticus and Exodus does. Who are you to say the old testament is the wrong part of the bible? How do you know God's true morality? Jesus is not an acceptable answer. Its a cop out.

 

[Godobeyer]

I guess I don't consider them as "selling their dignity and honor." If they do actually enjoy it, why is it giving up their dignity and honor? You cannot be a "slave for money." That is a logical impossibility. If someone gets paid, they are not a slave, according to the clear definition of the term. I am open to the diginity and honor argument, as long as you can explain/substantiate it (without religious dogma/beliefs of course, as it is innapropriate to force religious beliefs about sex on anyone), but the slavery claim is logically impossible, as I have explained.

I think this is very sensitive subject .

IF they enjoying selling them selfs , that does not mean they destroy their dignity and honor ? it's an excuse ?

there is also other subject about selling
I see that some people enjoying selling their wifes "cuckold" , so it's not about dignity and honor ?

the working by honor don't equal to dirty works .

the workers in construction don't sell their "privet" parts .

they are no different than slaves , the slaves sell their bodies by force , strippers sell their bodies by money "temporary" .

btw
could not be the slaves enjoying their slavery ?

 

[Augustus]

Can you please post a thread about these links to verify their credibility in Islam Dir .

I know they are credible. Haykal was recommended to me by an Imam, and the Sealed nectar won an award from an international Islamic organisation, although some Muslims don't really like it. I think it is more popular among conservative than liberal Muslims (but I might be wrong)

I think there is much lies in these sources ,so who translate them put lies between the lines.

What information do you consider to be incorrect?

you seems jump the whole story to end ?
I heard a story of a Jewish tribe betrayed Muslims (broke the deal with Muslims ) Muslims ,that cost huge lose number of martyns in Muslim side , so the Muslims revenged, killed the traitors , so the women becomes slaves to Muslims .

That's pretty much what the sources say. The whole story is over many pages though, so I'm not going to post the whole thing. If you look at the post I replied to, it is relevant information in the context of what you said.

Like all religions, Islam evolves, but because most religions now are anti-slavery, that doesn't mean they were in the past. If early Muslims were anti-slavery, they didn't try very hard to show a good example to others.

It is also quite revealing that it is possible to confuse direct quotes from highly regarded biographies of Muhammed, with anti-Muslim propaganda.

 

[Augustus]

could not be the slaves enjoying their slavery ?

Yes, in the ancient world, many slaves were very well treated and often occupied positions of great power in government. If you captured an educated man, you didn't waste him on a farm, you got him to educate your children, become an advisor or a scribe, etc. If you were good at your job you could get 'promoted'. High status slaves lived a better life than most average free men.

Some females might have enjoyed being part of a harem and been treated very well also.

Some low status slaves might even have preferred it as at least they got fed and were safe from attackers.

Some 'house negroes' might have enjoyed slavery in America too.

The problem with being a slave is, if you don't like it, you can't get out of it. You are property, not a free human being. A free person has choice, a slave doesn't. And if they have choice then they are not a slave. Calling someone a 'wage slave', is a metaphor rather than an actual reflection of reality. To treat a 'wage slave' as being similar to a real slave fails to appreciate this essential difference.

 

[leibowde84]

I think this is very sensitive subject .

IF they enjoying selling them selfs , that does not mean they destroy their dignity and honor ? it's an excuse ?

there is also other subject about selling
I see that some people enjoying selling their wifes "cuckold" , so it's not about dignity and honor ?

the working by honor don't equal to dirty works .

the workers in construction don't sell their "privet" parts .

they are no different than slaves , the slaves sell their bodies by force , strippers sell their bodies by money "temporary" .

btw
could not be the slaves enjoying their slavery ?

1. No, I do not think it is possible for a slave to "enjoy their slavery." I think that would cancel out the requirement that they are "forced to do" something. If they enjoy it, they are merely volunteers, assuming that they would continue doing it according to their own will. You seem to have a different definition of the word "slave" than is usually used. Can you provide this definition for me?

2. You seem to have a bias against sexual acts, as if they are different than other kinds of work. This actually is a very common sentiment, but one that I do not necessarily agree with. Can you explain why you feel that sexual acts are "dirty works," as you describe them?

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

Some of this stuff makes no sense. And your formatting is bizarre. Its like you're trying to write your argument in poetry format, but it looks really bad.

I'm asking how you know the mind of God. You say from the bible. i say Leviticus and exodus support slavery on multiple occasions. You say but look at the new testament. And I say in response that you pick and choose your morals, which shows that you are just making a subjective interpretation; you don't actually know the mind of God or have special knowledge. I also ask how yo uknow you're right but you don't give me any explanations besides some contradictory bible quotes. I already agreed the bible has numerous contradictions.

"That's the spirit of the Gospel does not believe in slavery"
According to you. Leviticus and Exodus does. Who are you to say the old testament is the wrong part of the bible? How do you know God's true morality? Jesus is not an acceptable answer. Its a cop out.

Christian believe in the Gospel
And also believe in the Torah
The Torah is not wrong
I hope that my words be clear
2. I write such a way that others understand my words
3. I said that, especially in the Jewish people the Torah
4-Torah gives us the movement of the Israeli people from the Diaspora to the Promised Land
5-Christianity abolished the ancient biblical laws
6. Christian announced that it is a new law
7. Christian law stems from the law of love
8. According to this interpretation
Van slavery is unacceptable in Christian thought
9. You made two versions of the Gospels
10. Christian does not have any text considered slavery legal system of God
This is the Christian faith

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

I know they are credible. Haykal was recommended to me by an Imam, and the Sealed nectar won an award from an international Islamic organisation, although some Muslims don't really like it. I think it is more popular among conservative than liberal Muslims (but I might be wrong)




What information do you consider to be incorrect?



That's pretty much what the sources say. The whole story is over many pages though, so I'm not going to post the whole thing. If you look at the post I replied to, it is relevant information in the context of what you said.

Like all religions, Islam evolves, but because most religions now are anti-slavery, that doesn't mean they were in the past. If early Muslims were anti-slavery, they didn't try very hard to show a good example to others.

It is also quite revealing that it is possible to confuse direct quotes from highly regarded biographies of Muhammed, with anti-Muslim propaganda.

Islam can not evolve
Because Islam says that the Word of God , who came to Muhammad
Muslims believe that all the words of the Koran and judgments and laws are valid in every time and every place
That is why I hope to take this important aspect in Islam

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

How can you possibly think that strippers are "slaves?" That seems to be very far from reality, as they are most often the ones taking advantage. And, they are by no means forced into this occupation, and, as it is a legal one, they are free to leave it at any time.

There is a line between slavery and work
Slavery is the loss of personal freedom
This is slavery
And the work and types this is not slavery
Man has the freedom to choose the type of work
Women who work in physical erosion possess in their will that work
Here there is a balance between personal freedom and personal choice
In Islam there to marry four wives system
In this freedom to marry the wife be zero
Here I think that women in the galleries stripping the body better than four wives in Islam
That the line between personal freedom
And between real slavery

 

[mahasn ebn sawresho]

you seems don't get my point yet :

the employee don't sell their privet bodies to got money .

They are engaged in pursuant
They possess the personal freedom to work or refuse to work
There is no compulsion on them
Here personal freedom
Without any restrictions on
The exposure of her body does not infringe on the rights of others
They are adult women it is possible they studied science
But slavery is correct possession of four women at one time
This is the right of slavery it in the loss of personal freedom

 

[serp777]

Christian believe in the Gospel
And also believe in the Torah
The Torah is not wrong
I hope that my words be clear
2. I write such a way that others understand my words
3. I said that, especially in the Jewish people the Torah
4-Torah gives us the movement of the Israeli people from the Diaspora to the Promised Land
5-Christianity abolished the ancient biblical laws
6. Christian announced that it is a new law
7. Christian law stems from the law of love
8. According to this interpretation
Van slavery is unacceptable in Christian thought
9. You made two versions of the Gospels
10. Christian does not have any text considered slavery legal system of God
This is the Christian faith

Your words are not clear at all. You even admit that you only are interpreting something. Who are you to judge one interpretation over another? On what authority do you say the people in the old testament had it wrong with slavery? You fail to answer my question regarding authority. On what authority do you make these claims?