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As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

Muffled

Jesus in me
I disagree. I should be able to read it and understand it on my own. If not, then we're all placing a whole lot of trust on middlemen of unknown expertise and allegiance.

I believe much of what God says in the Qu'ran presumes that you have read the Bible and know something of Christian history. I red it with help from the Holy Spirit to bring me understanding since I did not presume to be able to discern the authenticity of the text on my own. I read the Vedas the same way. I do agree that the middlemen get it wrong as often with the Qu'ran as they do with the Bible. However I believe a person reading by himself is more likely to get things wrong than if there is a group reading and exchanging and debating ideas.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Muffled,

The people I've talked to, who hold the Quran dear, consistently tell me that it is the final, perfect, timeless, unalterable word of god.

They don't say to me that I should read it metaphorically.

Now they often say that I should consider the historical context, but when pressed as to the claim of timelessness, I've never received a straight answer. A thing is either timeless or it is not.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
icehorse

Peace be on you.
1= Holy Quran brought new teaching on issues.
2= It reminded forgotten universal truths.
3= It brought prophecies.
4= It mentions previous stories in right form, as the prophecy for future. For example, at the end of Chapter 12 (Yusuf) it says:
[12:112] Assuredly, in their narrative is a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a thing that has been forged, but a fulfilment of that which is before it and a detailed exposition of all things, and a guidance and a mercy to a people who believe.
5= wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/egazette/updates/reply-to-allegation-that-holy-quran-is-composed-of-verses-cancelling-each-other/
6= Holy Quran contains metaphors too

More@ wwwDOTalislamDOTorg/quran/
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Well "im told" that the bible includes both Leviticus and exodus which advocate for significant slavery. On what authority do you claim these aren't part of the bible? On what authority do you determine that the new testament is more prevalent and superior than the old testament. I dont think you're the next prophet.
You are trying to give explanations I have not announced here
I said that the Gospel which is called the New Testament texts which is not supported slavery
The evidence presented to you
And either the Old Testament or Torah Yes where some of the texts that speak of slavery
But the interpretation of the Bible has a different way
Even the Bible, they do not support slavery
2. I ask you only texts of the Gospels
I am a Christian
I am my faith in the Bible is only in the spiritual part,
The Torah was a covenant between God and the Jewish people
But Christianity is a covenant between God and man
Christianity was declared the most important attribute of a loving God
Love is the opposite direction to slavery
When God declares his love for us
This means that Christianity does not believe in slavery
So yes I understand the Bible
But in Islam, you do not know the meaning of love
That's in the Koran texts notes believes in slavery
There is a big difference between Christianity and Islam
Especially in slavery
Islam is the approach depends on the texts of the Koran
While Christianity is not the explicit texts
And the spirit of Christianity does not believe in slavery
I hope that you will be pink and clear
 

mahasn ebn sawresho

Well-Known Member
Peace to all.
1-Before Quran, people were marrying a lot of women at a time. For example:
"Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines."

2-Quran set the limit, for wisdom of times e.g, after wars when many men die.

3-Quran does not say, Muslims must marry more than one women, it is permission only.

4- You quoted from (ch4:v4), the chapter 3 ended about patient and duty on borders. i.e. time of danger. And orphans are mentioned in beginning of Chapter 4, clearly war scenario is mentioned. More possible (not obligatory) marriages are mentioned in (4:4).

5- Kindly get language Specialist's help to read this page and next page about وما ملكت ايمانكم
I do not need to a specialist in Arabic language
Because I speak Arabic well
I know the meanings of words
I made you a great deal of evidence, but your mind does not accept any faith in the fact
This is your problem you
2. Jews do not believe in polygamy
3. The actions of the Jewish kings, which greatly exaggerated
4. Jewish prophets declared that some of their actions were wrong
5. them Daoud announce the following words and ask forgiveness from God
(Aletbi says Daoud (you united Akhtaet and evil before you made) to the end of the wonderful Psalm
6. Prophet of Islam committed mistakes outrageous
But he does not announce it mis
Muhammad wants you to be followed in those mistakes too
7. I am a Christian and a Christian does not believe in polygamy and divorce also the difficult religiously
8. Christ announced the following words ( What God has not he divides human )
Here are a sign of the marital bond and its importance in Christianity
9. Islam is the legalization of the sex and adultery with subcontractors
And you know the state of the fun of women
(And enjoyed the doing of the women they brought their wages virtue )
10. sex with slaves not marriage
Is the practice of sex without marriage Association
This is the second part of the Quranic verse
11. Open your mind , my friend, you will not be obscured by the sun with a sieve
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
As I read the Quran, which parts should I ignore?

No part of Quran is to be ignored. All is useful, but one has to read it neutrally, intently and as per the purpose and the context of the verses.
To make it easy for one to understand it correctly, I would suggest one to see all the reference points/verses mentioned in the OP to click the relative verse from the following Quran translation.
http://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/index.php
One would find first the lexicon of the words has been discussed for deeper meaning then the comments cover the context of the verse and the purpose, under every verse in "Detailed English Commentary".
Regards
 
I'd like to gain a basic understanding of Islam. I'm not thinking of signing up anytime soon, but it's worth understanding. I've been at it for a couple of years now and I've found it to be hard to pin down. I'm often told that I'm "misinterpreting" parts, or that I lack historical perspective or this or that...

So here are some ideas I found in the Quran, and my guess is that I'll be told I should ignore them, that they are not part of the "true Islam", even though we see many Muslims in the world pursuing these ideas:

- 1:7 - Allah is forever angry with Christians and Jews

I apologize for the length of this, but you've asked an important question, so I wanted to give as complete an answer as I could given the, er, context.

Don't ignore anything, rather try to be aware of the context in which the verses exist and simply try to understand them in that context. For example, where does the verse you're looking at fit in with other teachings? In the ministries of Moses and Christ (both of whom are revered by Muhammad and Muslims as legitimate Messengers of God and part of His covenant with man), the Prophet Himself set a hierarchy of sorts. To love God and love one's neighbor as one's self are cited as the two greatest commandments by both Moses and Christ. The great Jewish rabbi, Hillel says these two commandments "are the entire Law. All the rest is commentary" and Christ says upon these two commandments all the others depend. So that sets a context in which we must understand all other commandments.

One of the first such verses that Muhammad revealed chronologically is in Surih 107, which reads:

“In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Hast thou observed him who belieth religion?
That is he who repelleth the orphan,
And urgeth not the feeding of the needy.
Ah, woe unto worshippers
Who are heedless of their prayer;
Who would be seen (at worship)
Yet refuse small kindnesses!”

As you can see, this sets a priority on acts of kindness over the outward trappings of worship (compare it to Christ's sermon against the Pharisees or His commentary about the widow's mite), or some of the Old Testament prophets (such as Ezekiel) establishing kindness to the stranger and the needy as being at the heart of what God wants from us (along with dire warnings about what will happen if believers fail in this regard). Ezekiel emphasizes the importance of the believers' treatment of others when he says directly: "Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy." (16:29)

As you can see, there is also context set by the teachings of prior revelations. The teachings about kindness and love toward others has been at the center of every revelation since the dawn of time, and the same is true of Islam.

There is also context set by repetition. When Christ repeatedly calls on believers to love one another, He gives that commandment emphasis. Likewise, when Muhammad repeatedly makes the point that men and women receive equal reward for their worship, or that it is best to free slaves, or that the Jews, Christians and Sabeans are believers in God, or the importance of forgiveness, that repetition hints at the relative importance of these teachings.

Context is also set by when and under what circumstances a teaching is given. Christ repeats His commandment to "love one another" (three times) just before He goes to the cross. This is the last message He will give His disciples before He's crucified. Of all the things that He might've said, He chose to say this (paraphrasing): If you want to stay connected to Me, abide in My love. If you want to abide in My love, obey My commandment. My commandment is: love one another. And if you don't do this, you'll be cut off like a withered branch that's fit for the fire. (Ouch!)

Another facet of this same idea is that while a commandment such as Christ's to love is an eternal and over-arching principle and a prescription for living, there are commandments that are specific to particular situations. Surih 2 of the Qur'an has a number of these verses that deal specifically with a situation between the Jews of Yathrib (Medina) and the Muslim community. The Jews of Yathrib had entered into a covenant with Muhammad, then broke it violently, driving out Jews who had converted to Islam and killing others. They joined forces with the pagan tribes to try to wipe the Muslims out and assassinate the Prophet. And that is the context of the verses having to do with fighting the infidel (which literally means unfaithful). Even then, Muhammad tells the believers that if the enemy ceases fighting and stops oppressing them, they are to forgive because "Allah is ever-forgiving." (Which throws into question the idea that God is forever angry with Jews and Christians.)

And this also raises historical context as a factor in understanding the verses of the Qur'an (or any other Holy Book). The Pickthall translation of the Qur'an is my favorite in many ways, but in great part because the translator gives the reader an idea of what was happening in the community at the time. Sometimes the context is hinted at in the text—such as when Muhammad suggested that women cloak themselves to go out in public so that they would not be molested. The intent was that they wouldn't draw undue attention to themselves. The situation was that, at the time, pagan and Jewish women were often veiled in public. Indeed, there's been a return to the veil in modern Israel among some women because of the beliefs of some Jewish sects.

Also, in reading the way you described the various verses above, I'd make a heartfelt plea that you make sure you understand what's being said. You say that 1:7 says "God is forever angry with Jews and Christians." Surih 1:6-7 reads: “Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.” There's nothing here about eternal anger for anyone, let alone Jews or Christians.

To give context, again, here is a general teaching about how to view the People of the Book, from Surih 2: 62 "Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.” Please note: This comes after Muhammad's instructions about warfare with the infidels or disbelievers. In the same way that we draw a distinction between Muslims in general and Islamist terrorists, Muhammad draws a distinction between truly devout Jews and Christians and the disbelievers among them who are terrorizing the Muslim community.

In general, if you look at the scriptures of any revealed religion, you'll find that there are two types of teachings. There are eternal spiritual precepts—such as the commandment to love our fellow creatures, to practice kindness, to be detached from material desires, to love God, pray and strive to fulfill our covenant with Him, etc. And there are social or material teachings which have to do with the specific times. The eternal teachings don't change. They come down to us in similar form from age to age. The second type can change radically depending on the circumstances of the people they were brought to.

Christ makes this point, er, pointedly when the Pharisees ask Him why He has changed Moses' law of divorcement. He responds:
“Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so." (Matt 19:8)

So, when Muhammad says in Surih 4 that a man may have up to four wives IF he can treat them with complete justice, and then later in the same chapter comments that this is impossible, He has done several things: He's severely limited the number of wives a man can have, enjoined justice as part of the marriage covenant, and has left it to the capacity of the believing men to realize that He's really saying they should only have one wife. (Remember the context: women were chattel, a man had no limit to the wives he could have, and he essentially owned them; in some tribes he could as easily kill as divorce them and they had no more rights than a piece of livestock. A great many of the social laws that Muhammad made dealt with women's rights.

A passage from the Bahá'í writings puts this idea about God's revelation to humanity pretty succinctly: “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements." – Bahá'u'lláh

This is akin to understanding historical context. But goes a bit deeper than that to understanding that we humans are a work in progress—we are evolving and our capacity to understand God's word in its myriad forms evolves as well.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hi Maya,

I appreciate your thoughtful post. That said, I think your post only confirms my concerns. For the sake of discussion, we could say that your analysis is "correct". The problem is that many other interpretations are commonly held, and from my perspective, your explanation is far from the most obvious.

Remember, Muslims hold that the Quran is perfect, immutable and timeless. Now notice how much of your interpretation relies on historical context. Imagine how warped our understanding of the ME in the 7th century will be in 10,000 years? (And even now, our understanding of those times is limited.) So in my opinion, your analysis is in conflict with the so-called "timeless" nature of the book.

I also appreciate your positive thoughts about our evolutionary nature, and I agree! But again, scripture stands opposed to evolution. By definition, scripture does not evolve.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi Maya,
I appreciate your thoughtful post. That said, I think your post only confirms my concerns. For the sake of discussion, we could say that your analysis is "correct". The problem is that many other interpretations are commonly held, and from my perspective, your explanation is far from the most obvious.
Remember, Muslims hold that the Quran is perfect, immutable and timeless. Now notice how much of your interpretation relies on historical context. Imagine how warped our understanding of the ME in the 7th century will be in 10,000 years? (And even now, our understanding of those times is limited.) So in my opinion, your analysis is in conflict with the so-called "timeless" nature of the book.
I also appreciate your positive thoughts about our evolutionary nature, and I agree! But again, scripture stands opposed to evolution. By definition, scripture does not evolve.

There you are right. Quran's basic purpose is to guide human being to the path that leads to G-d. This issue is timeless and equally valid in all times, so in this sense it is perfect, and immutable. Other things are subordinate and secondary to this issue. No other religion or no-religion can compete Quran in this connection. This is the only Recitation that can lead one to G-d, if one wants to.

Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I believe much of what God says in the Qu'ran presumes that you have read the Bible and know something of Christian history. I red it with help from the Holy Spirit to bring me understanding since I did not presume to be able to discern the authenticity of the text on my own. I read the Vedas the same way. I do agree that the middlemen get it wrong as often with the Qu'ran as they do with the Bible. However I believe a person reading by himself is more likely to get things wrong than if there is a group reading and exchanging and debating ideas.

My guess is that you would be unhappy with the messages I took away from the Bible and the Quran. I mostly got very negative, fear-based messages. Of course there are certain positive moments, but they are outweighed by the negative.

If you come into the reading looking for positive messages, I agree that you can find them. But if you come in with a neutral, open mind, I think you will find these books to be discouraging rather than encouraging.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
My guess is that you would be unhappy with the messages I took away from the Bible and the Quran. I mostly got very negative, fear-based messages. Of course there are certain positive moments, but they are outweighed by the negative.
If you come into the reading looking for positive messages, I agree that you can find them. But if you come in with a neutral, open mind, I think you will find these books to be discouraging rather than encouraging.
Atheism is based on negatives, so they get everything negatives, that could be one reason.
Who decides that one is neutral and an open mind? Atheism are not a judge. Are they?
Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Atheism is based on negatives, so they get everything negatives, that could be one reason.
Who decides that one is neutral and an open mind? Atheism are not a judge. Are they?
Regards

Hi paarsurrey - I'm an editor by profession. It's my job to read books from a neutral perspective.

Also, atheists are not - in general - negative people. In fact in my experience atheists are quite positive people. :)
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hi paarsurrey - I'm an editor by profession. It's my job to read books from a neutral perspective.
Also, atheists are not - in general - negative people. In fact in my experience atheists are quite positive people. :)
Well, that is just an opinion one has about oneself. It is not a fact.
Editor by profession won't be neutral all the time. One could have several moods and modes for different things. Maybe one has developed some aversion generally to Religion for nothing as is suggested by the description "anti-theist". Right? Please
Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Hey paarsurrey,

Indeed, cognitive scientists tell us that we all have biases. All we can do is be aware of our biases and try to reduce them.

But I can ask you this: Over 500 times in the Quran, non-believers are mentioned, and almost always non-believers are criticized. Isn't it common sense for ANY non-Muslim to get a negative feeling from all of this endless criticism?
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Hey paarsurrey,
..Isn't it common sense for ANY non-Muslim to get a negative feeling from all of this endless criticism?

Why just non-muslim? Isn't it negative for all human beings, apart from those people who enjoy conflict and bullying, that is..
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Hey paarsurrey,
Indeed, cognitive scientists tell us that we all have biases. All we can do is be aware of our biases and try to reduce them.
But I can ask you this: Over 500 times in the Quran, non-believers are mentioned, and almost always non-believers are criticized. Isn't it common sense for ANY non-Muslim to get a negative feeling from all of this endless criticism?
It is criticism so that they reform, so it is positive criticism.
Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
But paarsurrey,

According to the Quran, Allah made non-believers like me with a dark heart. According to the Quran we cannot reform!
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
But paarsurrey,
According to the Quran, Allah made non-believers like me with a dark heart. According to the Quran we cannot reform!

One is simply wrong.
Did one read Quran oneself from cover to cover?
If yes, then please quote such verse with the verses in the context that support your viewpoint. Will one?Please
Regards
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well I for one did read the book from cover to cover. This particular idea comes up very early in the book surah 2:6 and 2:7:

2:6 Verily, those who disbelieve, it is the same to them whether you (O Muhammad) warn them or do not warn them, they will not believe.
2:7 Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, (i.e. they are closed from accepting Allah's Guidance), and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be a great torment.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Well I for one did read the book from cover to cover. This particular idea comes up very early in the book surah 2:6 and 2:7:

Oh dear! You don't want to be one of those people, do you?

What if you decided to believe in God? You would no longer fit into that category would you.
You might feel that those verses imply that you can't become a believer, but I don't think it means that.

Some disciples of Muhammad(peace be with him) were very staunch disbelievers at first, but later became staunch believers :)
 
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