Ask Angellous about his beliefs (Christianity)

[angellous_evangellous]

I've noticed. :areyoucra

More succinctly, what are your interpretations of the two most hotly contested arguments facing Christianity from that book? ie. Adam and Eve, Noah and the Floating Wood Menagerie.

A & E - story about how the world came to be so crappy

Noah - story about God taking his ball and going home. I liked Evan Almighty - very cool interpretation of a very scary story.

 

[thorman]

Hebrews 11:1 ESV "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hebrews 11:1 ESV "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

I take the meaning of upostasis in the Greek to mean "substance" as in "definition" or "nature." My understanding of the text is that it has nothing to do with assurance - being confident of anything in a scientific or philosophical sense - but with the defining of faith (the substance of things hoped for, conviction of things not seen). That is, the lack of assurance is the substance of faith, because it is what is hoped for - the conviction that something exists when it cannot.

 

[thorman]

I take the meaning of upostasis in the Greek to mean "substance" as in "definition" or "nature." My understanding of the text is that it has nothing to do with assurance - being confident of anything in a scientific or philosophical sense - but with the defining of faith (the substance of things hoped for, conviction of things not seen). That is, the lack of assurance is the substance of faith, because it is what is hoped for - the conviction that something exists when it cannot.

I appreciate the reply and the word study. I'm just confused as to the last part- "the conviction that something exists when it cannot." Did you mean cannot exist?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I appreciate the reply and the word study. I'm just confused as to the last part- "the conviction that something exists when it cannot." Did you mean cannot exist?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Aristotle taught that a thing cannot exist and exist at the same time (be and not be) - this is referred to the law of non-contradiction. Note: Law of noncontradiction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far we can know anything ... God cannot exist, and yet Christians confess that God does. With the best tests that we have, God cannot be found, God must reveal Godself, and the revelation cannot be tested by science, philosophy, or anything else because we cannot constrain God to a test.

 

[thorman]

Your Aristotle quote got me thinking of a work by Thomas Aquinas.
"If there were no substance knowable beyond sensible substance, then there would be no science beyond natural science." - Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles Book I, chapter 12.

Isn't it possible to know something without physically sensing it?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Your Aristotle quote got me thinking of a work by Thomas Aquinas.
"If there were no substance knowable beyond sensible substance, then there would be no science beyond natural science." - Aquinas Summa Contra Gentiles Book I, chapter 12.

Isn't it possible to know something without physically sensing it?

But would that really be "knowing?" In order to define this other sense of knowing, if it is more than "physically" knowing something, we would have to say that there is more to humanity that we can know. That is, we make up a god and then pretend that we have the divine ability to "sense" it in a way that we cannot know "physically."

 

[thorman]

I'm not claiming any supernatural powers on our part, but if God shows Himself to us, communes with us, dwells in us, is it not possible that He grants us the ability to know Him? If we cannot know that a thing exists what can we know about it?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I'm not claiming any supernatural powers on our part, but if God shows Himself to us, communes with us, dwells in us, is it not possible that He grants us the ability to know Him? If we cannot know that a thing exists what can we know about it?

Behold the circle:

we make up a god and then pretend that we have the divine ability to "sense" it in a way that we cannot know "physically."

The answer, for me, is faith. We "know" because we "believe."

 

[thorman]

The answer, for me, is faith. We "know" because we "believe."

I think that's what I've been trying to say. Thanks for taking the time.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I think that's what I've been trying to say. Thanks for taking the time.

:disco:

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Behold the circle:
The answer, for me, is faith. We "know" because we "believe."

I believe that there's blind faith. People who simply will not do the homework and believe on a whim. Acts 17:11 says,"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Here's an analogy: I have never been to Africa. But I believe it's there because of the evidence.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I believe that there's blind faith. People who simply will not do the homework and believe on a whim. Acts 17:11 says,"Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

Here's an analogy: I have never been to Africa. But I believe it's there because of the evidence.

Is the evidence for God the same as the evidence for Africa?

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Is the evidence for God the same as the evidence for Africa?

Yes, there is much evidence of Jesus, who he was, who liked and disliked him, biblical and non-biblical. He's isn't make-believe. Josephus was a historian and refuted all of the mesiahs before, during and after Jesus, except Jesus. He was convinced that Jesus was in fact a miracle worker and the mesiah. The bible has some 400+ prophecies about the mesiah and Jesus fulfilled all of them. The odds of anyone doing that is astronomical. I could go on and on.

But, yes, there will be issues that are hard to explain and faith requires trust. There was a tightrope artist who said he could ride a bicycle backwards without a net below him. The crowd said WE BELIEVE YOU CAN DO IT!!! So he did. He then told the crowd he could do it with someone on his shoulders and the crowd said WE BELIEVE YOU CAN DO IT!!!! He then asked for a volunteer and as you can imagine, the crowds enthusiasm had changed.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Yes, there is much evidence of Jesus, who he was, who liked and disliked him, biblical and non-biblical. He's isn't make-believe. Josephus was a historian and refuted all of the mesiahs before, during and after Jesus, except Jesus. He was convinced that Jesus was in fact a miracle worker and the mesiah. The bible has some 400+ prophecies about the mesiah and Jesus fulfilled all of them. The odds of anyone doing that is astronomical. I could go on and on.

Molehill, meet mountain.

I'm not sure how much significance we can place on Josephus' comment concerning Jesus, but we can say with certainty that the "prophesies" referring to Jesus in the Hebrew scriptures have not been convincing to anyone who isn't already Christian.

note: Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Jeremy Mason]

Molehill, meet mountain.

I'm not sure how much significance we can place on Josephus' comment concerning Jesus, but we can say with certainty that the "prophesies" referring to Jesus in the Hebrew scriptures have not been convincing to anyone who isn't already Christian.

note: Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is some suggested reading, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Vol. 1,2 and 3.,by Michael L. Brown. This has been a faith builder for me and my friends. I hope it will be for you as well.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Here is some suggested reading, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Vol. 1,2 and 3.,by Michael L. Brown. This has been a faith builder for me and my friends. I hope it will be for you as well.

Thanks.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Here is some suggested reading, Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus Vol. 1,2 and 3.,by Michael L. Brown. This has been a faith builder for me and my friends. I hope it will be for you as well.

I'll exchange a little pearl of wisdom for that...

A senior scholar - a New Testament professor of 35 years - told us that he doesn't teach Jews about God, he lets them teach him about God. The prophesies about Christ that Christians abuse and wear proudly on their sleeves have meaning only for Christians and no one else. Knowing that is more than half the battle.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I'll exchange a little pearl of wisdom for that...

A senior scholar - a New Testament professor of 35 years - told us that he doesn't teach Jews about God, he lets them teach him about God. The prophesies about Christ that Christians abuse and wear proudly on their sleeves have meaning only for Christians and no one else. Knowing that is more than half the battle.

Michael L. Brown was Jewish, and after examining the Scriptures, became Christian. His books are primarily for Jewish people, but of course, he invites all people of all faiths to read them.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Michael L. Brown was Jewish, and after examining the Scriptures, became Christian. His books are primarily for Jewish people, but of course, he invites all people of all faiths to read them.

There were black slaves who fought for southern independence in the war between the states.:thud:

note: Black Confederates