Ask me about ancient Egypt

[Heyo]

Shall I keep going?

Yes, please. The alien angle was stupid from the beginning, but what about poured sandstone, impossibly precise cuts and even boreholes, erosion marks that point to a much older age (especially on the Sphinx)?
There's more of the same floating around on YouTube, and it isn't answered.

 

[Tamino]

what about poured sandstone,

Nonsense. The sandstone blocks can be traced, by their sediment layers, back to the exact layer in the quarry that they came from. Any actual geologist can confirm that it's natural stone.
Who even comes up with those ideas??? If you want to "pour" stone you'd also need huge amounts of ingredients(and how do they supposedly make it all stick together? Cement? Epoxy-resin? Where would they have sourced that? And those ingredients also need to be carried up to the construction site... I don't even see the logic how that would have made it so much easier.

impossibly precise cuts and even boreholes,

They 're not impossible, they're just high quality. Seriously, have you seen what a modern stonemason can do with just a chisel and mallet? I've had this discussion many times... All the supposedly "laser made" cuts and holes are perfectly achievable with simple tools - they just require lots of precision, skill and time.

erosion marks that point to a much older age (especially on the Sphinx)?

The Sphinx is much older, nobody is questioning that: it's a natural piece of rock after all! Humans just recarved some sections, and added some masonry for the paws.
Egyptologists even agree that the monument was reworked several times in antiquity, and that there might have been a pre-Dynastic variant... Like, it has been suggested that it used to be larger and in the form of a jackal, and then they recarved it as a human face. No scientist would deny the possibility. We just won't take it as fact until there's some actual evidence.

There's more of the same floating around on YouTube, and it isn't answered.

Bring it on.

 

[Heyo]

Nonsense. The sandstone blocks can be traced, by their sediment layers, back to the exact layer in the quarry that they came from. Any actual geologist can confirm that it's natural stone.
Who even comes up with those ideas??? If you want to "pour" stone you'd also need huge amounts of ingredients(and how do they supposedly make it all stick together? Cement? Epoxy-resin? Where would they have sourced that? And those ingredients also need to be carried up to the construction site... I don't even see the logic how that would have made it so much easier.

The sand is already there. Just add some unknown glue/cement and water.

They 're not impossible, they're just high quality. Seriously, have you seen what a modern stonemason can do with just a chisel and mallet? I've had this discussion many times... All the supposedly "laser made" cuts and holes are perfectly achievable with simple tools - they just require lots of precision, skill and time.

Any proof of that? Like, a modern stonemason with a copper chisel making such a cut or hole on video?

Just relaying the arguments here. Not that I believe in that stuff. It's just that it's hard to find good answers (as you said yourself). And without diving really deep into the subject, I stand there as with a knife to a gun fight. The weirdos are dominating the narrative, and I have nothing but my incredulity.

 

[Tamino]

The sand is already there. Just add some unknown glue/cement and water.

But you still need to showvel the sand into baskets, potentialy sieve it to get the donkey droppings out, carry it up, also the water needs to be carried up onto the half-finished pyramid - you still need to move those materials into the right place.

Any proof of that? Like, a modern stonemason with a copper chisel making such a cut or hole on video?

Just relaying the arguments here. Not that I believe in that stuff. It's just that it's hard to find good answers (as you said yourself). And without diving really deep into the subject, I stand there as with a knife to a gun fight. The weirdos are dominating the narrative, and I have nothing but my incredulity.

Try "Scientists agains Myths" on Youtube
sawing granite:

drilling holes:

 

[Heyo]

But you still need to showvel the sand into baskets, potentialy sieve it to get the donkey droppings out, carry it up, also the water needs to be carried up onto the half-finished pyramid - you still need to move those materials into the right place.

Try "Scientists agains Myths" on Youtube
sawing granite:

drilling holes:

Experimental archaeology FTW.

 

[Tamino]

Experimental archaeology FTW.

so true.

Field archaeologist: "found weird bronze buckle thingie. no idea what it's used for. Maybe ornamental?"
Reenactor: "dammit my equipment keeps slipping off my shoulder when I walk any distance. I need something to keep this strap in place... ooooohhhhh, weird bronze buckle thingie! that's it, lemme take measurements and commission it from my smith"

 

[VoidCat]

Found on Facebook felt relevant

 

[Heyo]

so true.

Field archaeologist: "found weird bronze buckle thingie. no idea what it's used for. Maybe ornamental?"

The usual category for everything archaeologist have no idea for what it was used is "cultic".

 

[River Sea]

drilling holes:

@Bthoth @Bharat Jhunjhunwala Take a look at this video that @Tamino shared. They are showing and seeing if they can do it.

Making Egyptian Drill Holes: Lost Ancient High Technology

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

The Egyptian Papyrus of Ani mentions the central themes of creation in the following order:

The creation of humankind;

The sun rising;

The land of Manu;

Travel in a boat;

The land of Punt.

Here, (1) “The creation of humankind” tells that these events took place at the time of creation. (2) “The sun rising” places these events in the east and matches with India. (3) “The land of Manu” is momentous. “Manu” was the name of Adam in the Hindu texts, as we have shown in the first section of this chapter. “The land of Manu” could, therefore, be located in the Indus Valley. (4) “Travel in a boat” matches with the Egyptians travelling in a boat to the Indus Valley. (5) “The land of Punt” connects the abovementioned four events with Punt, by which name the Indus Valley was probably known to the Egyptians as shown above.

(“Hail… creator of mankind… The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising… The… god… cometh unto the land of Manu… May I see Horus in charge of the rudder… may I grasp the bows of the seket boat…” The land of Punt is mentioned in one of the four alternative translations: “The land of Punt is established for the perfumes which thou smellest with thy nostrils” (Budge, E A Wallis, The Book of the Dead, The Papyrus of Ani, Book of Dead Plate 1, Retrieved September 14, 2015). Elsewhere, Budge translates this as “land of Manu (i.e., the land where the sun sets)” (Budge, E A Wallis, Egyptian Religion: Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life, Arkana, London, 1899, Page 29-30). The phrase “the land where the sun sets,” is apparently added by Budge. This phrase does not make sense in view of the statement that Ra is seen in his rising which clearly points to sunrise and not sunset.).

 

[Heyo]

(5) “The land of Punt” connects the abovementioned four events with Punt, by which name the Indus Valley was probably known to the Egyptians as shown above.

Land of Punt - Wikipedia

 

[Tamino]

The Egyptian Papyrus of Ani mentions the central themes of creation in the following order:

The Papyrus of Ani is a collection of spells to purify and revive a dead person. It's not a Genesis story. Mythological narrative shows up only in the form of allusions and short anecdotes.
I guess you know that, but I thought I'd clarify for the other people reading this.

The creation of humankind;

The sun rising;

Why would the creation of humankind take place BEFORE the sun rise of zep tepy?

The land of Manu;

Travel in a boat;

The land of Punt.

While these topics may show up here and there... How are they "central themes of creation"?

Here, (1) “The creation of humankind” tells that these events took place at the time of creation. (2) “The sun rising” places these events in the east and matches with India.

Do you have the exact citation? Which spell? or will I have to reread the entire Papyrus to find them?

(3) “The land of Manu” is momentous. “Manu” was the name of Adam in the Hindu texts, as we have shown in the first section of this chapter. “The land of Manu” could, therefore, be located in the Indus Valley.

Let me get back to you once I found that bit in the original. P. of Ani is available online, I should be able to locate it

(4) “Travel in a boat” matches with the Egyptians travelling in a boat to the Indus Valley. (5) “The land of Punt” connects the abovementioned four events with Punt, by which name the Indus Valley was probably known to the Egyptians as shown above.

Traveling in a boat can happen to a thousand possible destinations, real and mythical

(“Hail… creator of mankind… The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising… The… god… cometh unto the land of Manu… May I see Horus in charge of the rudder… may I grasp the bows of the seket boat…”

So someone is describing a sun rise and the sun god travelling across the sky. Not convinced. Lemme hint that up in the original, as I said.

The land of Punt is mentioned in one of the four alternative translations: “The land of Punt is established for the perfumes which thou smellest with thy nostrils”

So, Punt is not number 5 but an alternative for 3?
I'm sure you are aware that Punt is usually supposed to be located somewhere around the horn of Africa? I even read a recent study that uses the subtype of the baboon to solidify the location. India is waaaaay out. Do you have any evidence beside a word that may or may not read "Manu"?

(Budge, E A Wallis, The Book of the Dead, The Papyrus of Ani, Book of Dead Plate 1, Retrieved September 14, 2015). Elsewhere, Budge translates this as “land of Manu (i.e., the land where the sun sets)” (Budge, E A Wallis, Egyptian Religion: Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life, Arkana, London, 1899, Page 29-30).

Budge is 100 years out of date. I'll look it up in the Totenbuch-Projekt.

The phrase “the land where the sun sets,” is apparently added by Budge. This phrase does not make sense in view of the statement that Ra is seen in his rising which clearly points to sunrise and not sunset.).

The sun kinda rises AND sets, you know? But no worries. I'll look it up tonight and hopefully post the original hieroglyphs of this passage. Just need to go to work first...

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Land of Punt - Wikipedia

That is an easy way not to apply ones mind.

 

[Tamino]

Okay I think I found the relevant parts.

Start of the Papyrus of Ani, Spell 15, a hymn to the sun god.

"Manu" is mentioned twice.
Once in the beginning.
context (Budge translation):
Homage to thee, O thou who hast come as Khepera, Khepera, the creator of the gods. Thou risest, thou shinest, making bright thy mother [Nut], crowned king of the gods. [Thy] mother Nut doeth homage unto thee with both her hands. The land of Manu receiveth thee with content, and the goddess Maat embraceth thee at the two seasons

phrase Ssp-tw mAnw m Htp "receives you Manu in peace "(Htp has a range of meaning: setting, sunset, settling, peace, being satisfied )


In this phrase, Manu clearly refers to the Western hills, the mythical place of sunset, since it "receives" Ra and he is "Htp" there: settled and satisfied.

 

[Tamino]

Second mention.
Budge translates:
The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light.The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday. O mayest thou be at peace with me;

Let me take that apart for you

wDA
Budge: "setteth forth"
TLA: "proceed, go in procession, move"

Hm nTr pn
Budge: the majesty of the god
Me: the majesty of this god

Spsi
Budge: "who must be feared"
TLA: "splendid, noble"

Xnm-n-f
Budge: "and cometh onto"
TLA: "join with"

tA n mAnw
Land of Manu

I would like to point out that the Xnm-n-f is grammatically distinct from the wDA. The -n- gives the verb a past meaning.
I would translate:
The noble majesty of this god proceeds, and has joined with the land of Manu.

We're going full circle here: the sun rises, fills everything with light, proceeds across the sky, and sets by "joining with the Western hills".

TLA has 45 mentions of Manu. The vast majority refer to the mystical place of sunset. One mention from Roman times seems to take it as a real place, and connects it to the Lybians and Phoenicians... who live to the Northwest of Egypt.
See here: mꜣnw (Lemma ID 67160)

Conclusion: Manu is neither Punt nor the Indus valley, it's a mostly mystical place of sunset, in the West.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

 

[River Sea]

@Tamino @Bthoth @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

I listen to this song often
Goddess Invocation by Chris and Sheree Geo

What are your thoughts about the names in this song?
Ísis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Deméter, Kali, Inanna

I see @Bharat Jhunjhunwala and @Tamino with the word Manu. I'm sure I'll be learning more about this word, Manu. Due to Manu is also used at KMT and before being used at Indus Valley. The Meena Community thinks they're descendants of Vaivaswat Manu, located in Jalore, India and still believes this. Yes there's still Meena community in India using word Manu.

Land of Manu: @Bharat Jhunjhunwala claims Indus Valley, while @Tamino claims west hills (where)?

I found this online: "man, Manu" and a "woman, Shatrupa." Maybe there's different meanings to Manu. Either land? Or two past people (Swayambhu Manu, Vaivaswat Manu), or a man? How did this word Manu come about, and what are all its meanings?

The land of Manu” could, therefore, be located in the Indus Valley

In this phrase, Manu clearly refers to the Western hills

This story is strange, because From Brahma’s mouth was born his daughter Saraswati. However keep reading and you'll see this word Manu. Well maybe not strange, maybe mouth meant spoken of birth., what does that mean Brahma's mouth was born his daughter?

Read below about Man Manu and Woman Shatrupa. in article and also found in Common Prophets by @Bharat Jhunjhunwala please also see past article what I found in book Common prophet.

First article:
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Tamino what's this? man, Manu and woman, Shatrupa.

Article: Brahma decided to try again. Doing it right this time.

So he first created a brilliant body for himself and then divided it into two, the primordial man, Manu and woman, Shatrupa.

They were married and had two sons Priyavarta and Uttanpad and three daughters: Aakooti, Devhooti and Prasuti.

Brahma Creates the Universe - All About Hinduism

Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh( Shiva) are the Hindu Trinity. Brahma creates the Universe, Vishnu sustains it and Shiva destroys it, so …Continue reading »

www.allabouthinduism.info

Now From book Common Prophets

(Brahma was once thinking that) it is indeed surprising that
creation is not taking place despite my continuous effort. (Then)
His body suddenly divided in two parts. A pair of male-female
emerged from these parts. The male was Manu and the female was
his queen Shatarupa.

Same person in article and in book common prophets: Shatarupa however a Queen. So Male was Manu and Female was Shatarupa

@Tamino is there a male Manu too in KMT

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Okay I think I found the relevant parts.

Start of the Papyrus of Ani, Spell 15, a hymn to the sun god.

"Manu" is mentioned twice.
Once in the beginning.
context (Budge translation):
Homage to thee, O thou who hast come as Khepera, Khepera, the creator of the gods. Thou risest, thou shinest, making bright thy mother [Nut], crowned king of the gods. [Thy] mother Nut doeth homage unto thee with both her hands. The land of Manu receiveth thee with content, and the goddess Maat embraceth thee at the two seasons

phrase Ssp-tw mAnw m Htp "receives you Manu in peace "(Htp has a range of meaning: setting, sunset, settling, peace, being satisfied )
View attachment 87913

In this phrase, Manu clearly refers to the Western hills, the mythical place of sunset, since it "receives" Ra and he is "Htp" there: settled and satisfied.

Please give reference to htp having a range of meanings. Also please accept my ignorance. What is TLA. How is it better than Budge? We cannot cherry pick to suit ourselves. Further, even if we accept a range of meanings, why may we not read it as east? Receiving of ra is in the east as it rises. Setteth is also in the east as sun sets on the course. And that does not explain Manu. That is name of adam of india.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

Second mention.
Budge translates:
The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light.The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday. O mayest thou be at peace with me;

Let me take that apart for you

wDA
Budge: "setteth forth"
TLA: "proceed, go in procession, move"

Hm nTr pn
Budge: the majesty of the god
Me: the majesty of this god

Spsi
Budge: "who must be feared"
TLA: "splendid, noble"

Xnm-n-f
Budge: "and cometh onto"
TLA: "join with"

tA n mAnw
Land of Manu

I would like to point out that the Xnm-n-f is grammatically distinct from the wDA. The -n- gives the verb a past meaning.
I would translate:
The noble majesty of this god proceeds, and has joined with the land of Manu.

We're going full circle here: the sun rises, fills everything with light, proceeds across the sky, and sets by "joining with the Western hills".
View attachment 87915

TLA has 45 mentions of Manu. The vast majority refer to the mystical place of sunset. One mention from Roman times seems to take it as a real place, and connects it to the Lybians and Phoenicians... who live to the Northwest of Egypt.
See here: mꜣnw (Lemma ID 67160)

Conclusion: Manu is neither Punt nor the Indus valley, it's a mostly mystical place of sunset, in the West.
Sorry to burst your bubble.

I am not convinced AT ALL. I quote again.
The gods are glad [when] they see Ra in his rising; his beams flood the world with light.The majesty of the god, who is to be feared, setteth forth and cometh unto the land of Manu; he maketh bright the earth at his birth each day; he cometh unto the place where he was yesterday.

Ra rising is east.
settled is setteth in his rising in the east. As one says get set go.
Comes into land of manu would be in the east.
I am not willing to take your word for manu being a mystic place of sunset. Pl give link.

 

[Bharat Jhunjhunwala]

@Tamino @Bthoth @Bharat Jhunjhunwala

I listen to this song often
Goddess Invocation by Chris and Sheree Geo

What are your thoughts about the names in this song?
Ísis, Astarte, Diana, Hecate, Deméter, Kali, Inanna

I see @Bharat Jhunjhunwala and @Tamino with the word Manu. I'm sure I'll be learning more about this word, Manu. Due to Manu is also used at KMT and before being used at Indus Valley. The Meena Community thinks they're descendants of Vaivaswat Manu, located in Jalore, India and still believes this. Yes there's still Meena community in India using word Manu.

Land of Manu: @Bharat Jhunjhunwala claims Indus Valley, while @Tamino claims west hills (where)?

I found this online: "man, Manu" and a "woman, Shatrupa." Maybe there's different meanings to Manu. Either land? Or two past people (Swayambhu Manu, Vaivaswat Manu), or a man? How did this word Manu come about, and what are all its meanings?





This story is strange, because From Brahma’s mouth was born his daughter Saraswati. However keep reading and you'll see this word Manu. Well maybe not strange, maybe mouth meant spoken of birth., what does that mean Brahma's mouth was born his daughter?

Read below about Man Manu and Woman Shatrupa. in article and also found in Common Prophets by @Bharat Jhunjhunwala please also see past article what I found in book Common prophet.

First article:
@Bharat Jhunjhunwala @Tamino what's this? man, Manu and woman, Shatrupa.

Article: Brahma decided to try again. Doing it right this time.

So he first created a brilliant body for himself and then divided it into two, the primordial man, Manu and woman, Shatrupa.

They were married and had two sons Priyavarta and Uttanpad and three daughters: Aakooti, Devhooti and Prasuti.

Brahma Creates the Universe - All About Hinduism

Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh( Shiva) are the Hindu Trinity. Brahma creates the Universe, Vishnu sustains it and Shiva destroys it, so …Continue reading »

www.allabouthinduism.info

Now From book Common Prophets

(Brahma was once thinking that) it is indeed surprising that
creation is not taking place despite my continuous effort. (Then)
His body suddenly divided in two parts. A pair of male-female
emerged from these parts. The male was Manu and the female was
his queen Shatarupa.

Same person in article and in book common prophets: Shatarupa however a Queen. So Male was Manu and Female was Shatarupa

@Tamino is there a male Manu too in KMT

These may be names of the primeval energy.

 

[Tamino]

Please give reference to htp having a range of meanings. Further, even if we accept a range of meanings, why may we not read it as east?

And

I see @Bharat Jhunjhunwala and @Tamino with the word Manu. I'm sure I'll be learning more about this word, Manu. Due to Manu is also used at KMT and before being used at Indus Valley.

Alright, I think we need to clarify something.
How do we know the meaning of any Egyptian word, as it is a dead language?
- some words can be inferred from Coptic.
- many words must be reconstructed from their occurrences.
So, you basically search the entire corpus of known Egyptian texts for occurrences of this word, and try to find the meaning that fits all of those different uses.
The TLA, Thesaurus Linguae Aegyptiae, is the largest database that is currently accessible to the public. It only contains a selection of Egyptian texts, not all of them, but it's pretty useful.

So. For Htp: to determine range of meaning, you scan all the occurrences of that word and look at the context . Then you find that it's being used in context of Gods being "Htp" on account of the offerings you receive, so we assume it might mean happy, or satisfied, or sated. Then we see Htp used in the context of the sunset. The sun god goes to rest, has completed the day, reaches the west, things like that... So we add a tentative meaning of sunset or rest.
But Htp is also used in other contexts, where we're talking about fighting countries or people stopping to fight and coming to an agreement.
And so on.
So, after checking all the possibilities, Egyptologists came to the conclusion that Htp carries the meaning of settling down, being content and resting, and translate with "content" "setting", "peace" or similar, according to context.
Here are the 1236 occurrences of that word in the database, you can check it yourself if you would like to form your own opinion:

ḥtp (Lemma ID 111230)

thesaurus-linguae-aegyptiae.de

For Manu, I have already provided the same list of occurrences above. Here again so you don't need to scroll: mꜣnw (Lemma ID 67160)

Why couldn't it mean "East"? Well, test it yourself! Take the 45 example sentences, translate as "East" and see if the sentences still make sense.

About the similarity of the Egyptian word Manu to the Indian Manu... I am afraid that there is no conclusive evidence that they are even homophones. We know the meaning of most Egyptian words, we don't know the pronunciation.

The hieroglyphs we transliterate a mAnw, might have sounded like ma'anwy, m'anwe, minoo, ma'anwy, ima'anoo etc. It's a consonant script. It does not record all the vowels. We know there's an m, an Alif(which could just be a glottal stop), an n and a waw, which is a mix of an W and an oo sound and there may or may not be more vowels sprinkled in between.

Please don't use a similarity of the Latin alphabet transliteration to conclude an etymological connection between two words that both come from languages with entirely different alphabets