Ask me about Evolution

[ImmortalFlame]

If you know exactly how it did evolved and what had happened millions of years ago,then till us the story with your evidence and scientific analysis.

What are you talking about?

What i meant to say that we don't know exactly how life originated and then evolved,what we got is just sum of theories and a guess-works,prove me wrong if you could.

You already are proven wrong. Every single piece of evidence leads to evolution - it's not guesswork, and more you say it is the more ignorant you make yourself out to be.

Calm down,it is only discussion.

No, it's not. It's reality versus fantasy. If you're going to be so arrogant as to call hundreds of years of scientific study "guesswork" then you lack sufficient maturity to discuss this topic meaningfully.

Did i say that we should ?

No, nor did I say that you said we should. The point is that we shouldn't believe something until we have a good reason to do so. We have thousands of good reasons for believing evolution, but we have no good reasons to believe in divinely inspired revelation (that we are aware of). So, unless you can provide said reasons, asking us why we don't accept them is a meaningless gesture.

Depending on the story,in the case of the Doctor,his daughter is the evidence and his colleagues in the hospital had witnessed it but not knowing what had happened.

None of which is anything other than circumstantial. Can you demonstrate the veracity of any of the claims made?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Without death the earth will be overpopulated.

Then Earth is flawed and since humans were created on earth then it stands that earth could have been made to be able to maintain humans. The idea is you have to die to live forever...why not just make us live forever?

How they did live while there were some failures in the first place.

That's evolution. They are failures because if they were perfectly designed they wouldn't have gone instinct. They would be suited...for earth...not just parts of it. Regardless what changes earth went through they'd be okay.

What a much better design you can propose for the tubes ?

Dolphins. They don't have the issue of possibly choking to death while eating.

Everyone is responsible for his own way of life,so i don't judge anyone.

Didn't ask if you judged, I asked if you agreed with their beliefs on God as well. That they are serving the same God as you.

 

[FearGod]

What are you talking about?

Review my posts to understand what i was talking about

You already are proven wrong. Every single piece of evidence leads to evolution - it's not guesswork, and more you say it is the more ignorant you make yourself out to be.

No one prove me wrong yet,but you are saying it as if it has really happened,exactly the same way that you are trying to fool others about such nonsense and it is you who show hypocrisy and ignorant altogether.

No, it's not. It's reality versus fantasy. If you're going to be so arrogant as to call hundreds of years of scientific study "guesswork" then you lack sufficient maturity to discuss this topic meaningfully.

For me it is a guesswork,and i do insist on my opinion the same way as you are free on your own opinion except if you are an atheistic fundamentalism.

Prove to us that God doesn't exist then i'll agree with you that abiogenesis and evolution doesn't need God,very simple,so go ahead.

No, nor did I say that you said we should. The point is that we shouldn't believe something until we have a good reason to do so. We have thousands of good reasons for believing evolution, but we have no good reasons to believe in divinely inspired revelation (that we are aware of). So, unless you can provide said reasons, asking us why we don't accept them is a meaningless gesture.

It is up to you to believe on something,but you can regard me along with some others as ignorants and you are the one as in full awareness

None of which is anything other than circumstantial. Can you demonstrate the veracity of any of the claims made?

For the example of Dr laurence brown,i think it'll be an arrogant to describe the doctor as a liar or that he was imagining things as if he was an idiot.

He is very well educated and yes i believe him 100%,and you can go mad on me for believing him.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Review my posts to understand what i was talking about

I have, and still do not. Your sentence makes no sense.

No one prove me wrong yet,

Then you need to learn more about science. To anyone with even a basic grasp of the subject, the notion that the theory of evolution is "guesswork" is laughable.

but you are saying it as if it has really happened,exactly the same way that you are trying to fool others about such nonsense and it is you who show hypocrisy and ignorant altogether.

The difference is that we have the facts and science that demonstrate we are correct. You have nothing, and all you can do is flatly dismiss any fact that doesn't fit your view. You are wrong, you just refuse to admit it.

For me it is a guesswork,

Then, to me, you have no idea what you're talking about and have little to no respect for science - and therefore any claims or opinions you may hold regarding scientific subjects can be freely dismissed as coming from a position of pure ignorance.

and i do insist on my opinion the same way as you are free on your own opinion except if you are an atheistic fundamentalism.

There's no such thing as "atheistic fundamentalism". Also, you have no idea of my religious beliefs, and my position on evolution has nothing to do with any beliefs (or lack thereof) I have regarding the existence of God. As far as evolution goes, I side with science and I side with facts. That is why I find your arguments so repugnant.

Prove to us that God doesn't exist then i'll agree with you that abiogenesis and evolution doesn't need God,very simple,so go ahead.

I've never claimed that God doesn't exist - not in this thread, nor any other. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

It is up to you to believe on something,but you can regard me along with some others as ignorants and you are the one as in full awareness

I'm not in "full awareness". I just accept reality, and the evidence indicates that you do not. Instead, you willingly (and likely knowingly) distort facts to fit with your preconceived religious beliefs.

For the example of Dr laurence brown,i think it'll be an arrogant to describe the doctor as a liar or that he was imagining things as if he was an idiot.

And I think it's arrogant to assume he is absolutely definitely honest when you most likely dismiss the many thousands of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens every year. It's the same reason I doubt the truth of anyone's claims until there's evidence for them. Until his claims are demonstrated to be true, I can happily dismiss them. He could be a liar, he could be an idiot, or he could just be simply mistaken. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that I have no reasonable way to conclude that what he is saying is true, therefore I can currently dismiss his claims.

He is very well educated and yes i believe him 100%,and you can go mad on me for believing him.

There are very educated people out there who believe lots of silly, unrealistic and outright baseless things. I'm guessing the criteria by which you decide to believe them or not rests solely on whether or not their conclusion matches your already held beliefs, which is another indication of your willing self-delusion and the fact that you bend the facts to fit your religious beliefs. You would not be willing to make such a leap of judgement for a Doctor who had a vision of the virgin Mary, or claimed to have followed Buddha's path to enlightenment, or practices black magic. Yet you choose to believe this one instance of someone's completely baseless claims because they fit what you already believe.

If that's the standard of evidence you have to bring to the table, it's not even worth discussing this with you. Your mind is incapable of moving out of its box.

 

[Warren Clark]

Evolution can't disprove the existance of God,if you think otherwise,then pls explain.

Every scientific finding has pushed supernatural explanations further and further from the picture. Every scientific test that has been done has shown that everything happens by natural means.

To expect that something supernatural had anything to do with anything is to ignore the fact that everything that we have observed has been completely natural without any supernatural event occurring.

 

[Warren Clark]

Because as i showed you that God asked us to search for the truth by travelling on earth for the evidences of how life have been orginated,which is by science.

You would have to believe in God in order to believe this.
So only those who are religiously inclined are truly searching for the truth?

 

[Debater Slayer]

They did (people) but in a manner to refute God's existance which i don't agree with.

I've seen some people (both theists and atheists) argue that the theory of evolution implies that there is no god(s) and/or that it necessarily discounts the possibility that a god(s) exists. However, I don't think it has much (if anything) to do with the question of whether any deity or deities exist. It's a scientific theory that is accepted by most biologists, theists and atheists alike. There's no scientific theory I'm aware of that says "There's no god," for instance, nor one that states a specific deity or deities exist. Those are personal beliefs and not ones that scientific theories are concerned with.

So, if someone argues that any given theological position follows from accepting the theory of evolution, they're stating a subjective personal belief and not a testable or scientific one--even if they happen to be scientists themselves. Scientific theories aren't really concerned with such questions; they merely attempt to explain natural phenomena based on available testable evidence.

 

[FearGod]

Then Earth is flawed and since humans were created on earth then it stands that earth could have been made to be able to maintain humans. The idea is you have to die to live forever...why not just make us live forever?

The earth isn't suitable for eternal living,imagine our world with 40 billions living on it for eternity.

i think the size of God's home planet for the afterlife will be as stated in this thread

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/130197-size-gods-home-planet.html

That's evolution. They are failures because if they were perfectly designed they wouldn't have gone instinct. They would be suited...for earth...not just parts of it. Regardless what changes earth went through they'd be okay.

So you believe on randomness,the failed one has extincted.

Dolphins. They don't have the issue of possibly choking to death while eating.

All chances worked perfectly such as the heart,the lung,the gastrointestinal system....etc,good work by randomness except for the trachea.

Trachea Function

Didn't ask if you judged, I asked if you agreed with their beliefs on God as well. That they are serving the same God as you.

i believe religion is about morals and not about who is God,mine or yours.

for [in the life to come,] all shall have their degrees in accordance with whatever [good or evil] they did: and so, He will repay them in full for their doings, and none shall be wronged. (46:19)

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

As i said before that i believe the earth is for testing the souls to see who deserve the afterlife,bad people do exist and don't deserve living for eternity.

Your opinion. Not a fact.

Because that isn't the purpose of our existance on earth.

Also your opinion.

i didn't say extinction is necessary for preventing overpopulation.

Then the point still stands that there are failures.

So for how long the failed species lived before extinction,10 years,100 years or thousands of years and do you think that the common ancestor (man & Apes) have failed and extincted.

They weren't failed while living. Their extinction is what defines them as a failed species.

The ancestors of man didn't fail, because they evolved into us. And we're still here.

All of this irrational superstitious thought may cause us to fail though.

No i think it is caused by parents negligence and as you can see the report is about children.

What does bad parenting have to do with food going down the wrong tube? Parents have no direct control over that. It's not like better behaved kids all of a sudden, develop a better esophagus.

Not exactly,like father like son.
Do you think if ones father is criminal then he (the son) will be the same.

It's not that black and white as the son is subjected to a lot more influence from different sources apart from the father.

I think a criminal father adds another possible factor in shaping a criminal son.

 

[Agnostic75]

Prove me wrong by science. Can you disprove that God do exist by science.

The National Academy of Sciences Is neutral about the existence of God. The majority of leading physicists do not believe in God.

Call it whatever you wish, but the answer is that you can't make a perfect job without a prior plan and design, that is science too.

If something has existed eternally, with certain attributes, it might be a conscious, self-aware being who is able to have audible conversations with humans in their own languages, such as the God of Islam, or it might be energy that has the same "creative" attributes, but lacks consciousness, and self-awareness like humans have, and like God supposedly has. Why do you only accept the first possibility?

Currently, science cannot settle the existence of the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt. The search for truth does not have a time limit. A hundred years from now, or a thousand years from now, perhaps the issue of the existence of God will be settled. So, people must use other kinds of evidence to try to settle the issue for themselves.

 

[FearGod]

I have, and still do not. Your sentence makes no sense.

Why it makes no sense ?

Then you need to learn more about science. To anyone with even a basic grasp of the subject, the notion that the theory of evolution is "guesswork" is laughable.

Guesswork as to state it happened through random mutations and not by supernatural power and you are proving nothing.

Can you prove that mutations just happened arbitrary without the Intervention of a supernatural power.

Your answers are as follow

What are you talkng about ?
That is ignorance....etc

The difference is that we have the facts and science that demonstrate we are correct. You have nothing, and all you can do is flatly dismiss any fact that doesn't fit your view. You are wrong, you just refuse to admit it.

No,i aint wrong.

i said evolution is controlled by a supernatural power and not just arbitrary without plan and design.

i believe in science and i believe that the universe needs intelligence to work and not the nonsense that you believe in.

You believe in things to work without prior plan and design,what kind of science is it ?

Then, to me, you have no idea what you're talking about and have little to no respect for science - and therefore any claims or opinions you may hold regarding scientific subjects can be freely dismissed as coming from a position of pure ignorance.

i respect science more than you do.

Thats why i think that there is mind and science behind this universe and not just randomness,chances,luck and then natural selection.

Do you call that science.

There's no such thing as "atheistic fundamentalism". Also, you have no idea of my religious beliefs, and my position on evolution has nothing to do with any beliefs (or lack thereof) I have regarding the existence of God. As far as evolution goes, I side with science and I side with facts. That is why I find your arguments so repugnant.

You ae insisting that there is no intelligence or supernatural power behind it.
Can you prove it by science,otherwise it is just a fundamentalism,it works for both sides.

I've never claimed that God doesn't exist - not in this thread, nor any other. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

So whats your arguement is about.

I'm not in "full awareness". I just accept reality, and the evidence indicates that you do not. Instead, you willingly (and likely knowingly) distort facts to fit with your preconceived religious beliefs.

No,thats not true.
We don't have any evidence which prove that evolution doesn't need intelligence and supernatural power.

And I think it's arrogant to assume he is absolutely definitely honest when you most likely dismiss the many thousands of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens every year. It's the same reason I doubt the truth of anyone's claims until there's evidence for them. Until his claims are demonstrated to be true, I can happily dismiss them. He could be a liar, he could be an idiot, or he could just be simply mistaken. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that I have no reasonable way to conclude that what he is saying is true, therefore I can currently dismiss his claims.

OK dismiss it,whats the problem.

There are very educated people out there who believe lots of silly, unrealistic and outright baseless things. I'm guessing the criteria by which you decide to believe them or not rests solely on whether or not their conclusion matches your already held beliefs, which is another indication of your willing self-delusion and the fact that you bend the facts to fit your religious beliefs. You would not be willing to make such a leap of judgement for a Doctor who had a vision of the virgin Mary, or claimed to have followed Buddha's path to enlightenment, or practices black magic. Yet you choose to believe this one instance of someone's completely baseless claims because they fit what you already believe.

Yes you are right that many educated people believe lots of silly things and i guess Darwin is one among others. :yes:

No,i don't believe the story of the Doctor just because he followed Islam,but its up to you if you think so.

If that's the standard of evidence you have to bring to the table, it's not even worth discussing this with you. Your mind is incapable of moving out of its box.

i didn't say evidence but a message.
As if your mind is capable of moving out of its box.

 

[FearGod]

Every scientific finding has pushed supernatural explanations further and further from the picture. Every scientific test that has been done has shown that everything happens by natural means.

To expect that something supernatural had anything to do with anything is to ignore the fact that everything that we have observed has been completely natural without any supernatural event occurring.

Which scientific findings that prove everything happens by natural means.
How can you know that what you called Natural is itself not the supernatural power.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

The earth isn't suitable for eternal living,imagine our world with 40 billions living on it for eternity.

i think the size of God's home planet for the afterlife will be as stated in this thread

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/130197-size-gods-home-planet.html

Then why even say "be fruitful and multiply?" Obviously there's a limit to the multiplying that they weren't aware of. God could have just made earth for the afterlife that large. But it won't matter because it's supposed to be that of a spirit right?

So you believe on randomness,the failed one has extincted.

It's not random, because random would mean that even the none "fail" ones would also have been extinct to. Natural selection is selected by the environment, those who cannot adapt quickly enough to the environment are selected against. A shift in the environment can be sudden or happen over a period of time.

All chances worked perfectly such as the heart,the lung,the gastrointestinal system....etc,good work by randomness except for the trachea.



Trachea Function

Not really...there's plenty of birth defects that happen around the heart. Our lungs are "inferior" compared to say birds. We barely use all the oxygen we have and for some reason from going from babies to adults we end up not breathing as well as we can...Our gastrointestinal system is also a mess...hence why we have things like hernias and prolapses. Walking bipedal makes giving birth difficult for us compared to other animals, though they have hard labors too at some points (look up a hyena giving birth...read about it...don't watch it unless you want to be scarred for life).

i believe religion is about morals and not about who is God,mine or yours.

for [in the life to come,] all shall have their degrees in accordance with whatever [good or evil] they did: and so, He will repay them in full for their doings, and none shall be wronged. (46:19)

That's good, so some who believe in evolution still believe in God, so they wouldn't be wrong. Some dont, but it's their deeds that will judge them, perhaps their judgement will be harder, but it's righteousness and unrightesous.

 

[Falvlun]

Sorry, FearGod. The fact of the matter is that science says nothing about the existence of God, neither for nor against. You can claim that you believe that a God must be necessary, but you cannot claim that this is a scientific belief, since no science has ever found a God to exist, or to be necessary. This is a religious belief, and you are welcome to it. But it is not scientific.

 

[Warren Clark]

I've seen some people (both theists and atheists) argue that the theory of evolution implies that there is no god(s) and/or that it necessarily discounts the possibility that a god(s) exists. However, I don't think it has much (if anything) to do with the question of whether any deity or deities exist. It's a scientific theory that is accepted by most biologists, theists and atheists alike. There's no scientific theory I'm aware of that says "There's no god," for instance, nor one that states a specific deity or deities exist. Those are personal beliefs and not ones that scientific theories are concerned with.

So, if someone argues that any given theological position follows from accepting the theory of evolution, they're stating a subjective personal belief and not a testable or scientific one--even if they happen to be scientists themselves. Scientific theories aren't really concerned with such questions; they merely attempt to explain natural phenomena based on available testable evidence.

Exactly as said, science cannot determine whether there is a God or some supernatural force at work.
The number one reason why MOST scientists are agnostic/atheist is simple.
(Yes, there are more agnostic and atheist doctors than there are seriously religiously observant scientists. Only 40% consider themselves religious or believe in a God.)
To be fair, Isaac Newton believed in a God that made gravity and motion happen.
However, he didn't really have nearly as much science discoveries as we do today.
All scientific findings have pushed the need of a supernatural hand out of the picture. Every discovery by science is of a natural occurrence.

If there is a "God" it would be of the natural world.
It won't be a being of any type that has the personification of a human as described by religious texts.

Like Neil Tyson explains, when people explain God he explains the universe in the same manner.
Using adjectives like "magnificent", "extraordinary", etc.

 

[Warren Clark]

Which scientific findings that prove everything happens by natural means.
How can you know that what you called Natural is itself not the supernatural power.

Because it happens and is observable in our natural world.
What you are implying is the redefining of the word natural.

A ball naturally falls to the floor on earth.
It would be unnatural or possibly supernatural if it were to fall upward without any possible explanation.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Why it makes no sense ?

Look at it again:

"If you know exactly how it did evolved and what had happened millions of years ago,then till us the story with your evidence and scientific analysis."

Who has claimed any of these things and why are you asking me?

Guesswork as to state it happened through random mutations and not by supernatural power and you are proving nothing.

We know mutations occur, and all the evidence suggests that they are the cause of speciation. That is not "guesswork", that's following the evidence where it leads.

Can you prove that mutations just happened arbitrary without the Intervention of a supernatural power.

Can you prove that reality isn't a dream state created by artificial intelligence in the future? Nobody here has said anything about supernatural causation. Science is silence on the subject of the supernatural.

Your answers are as follow

What are you talkng about ?
That is ignorance....etc

No, that's confusion, because your arguments make no sense.

No,i aint wrong.

Yes, you are.

i said evolution is controlled by a supernatural power and not just arbitrary without plan and design.

Can you demonstrate that?

i believe in science and i believe that the universe needs intelligence to work and not the nonsense that you believe in.

Can you demonstrate that?

Also, what do I believe in? I haven't discussed my beliefs with you at all.

You believe in things to work without prior plan and design,what kind of science is it ?

Actual science. If you believe that there has to be a "plan", you're welcome to prove it.

i respect science more than you do.

Thats why i think that there is mind and science behind this universe and not just randomness,chances,luck and then natural selection.

You clearly don't understand science if you think those are the only two options. If it really bothers you that the Universe may have an element of randomness in it, then you neither understand science nor do you understand reality in general.

Do you call that science.

Do you call "mutations are caused by magic" science?

You ae insisting that there is no intelligence or supernatural power behind it.

No I'm not. I've never once said that in this thread or any other.

Can you prove it by science,otherwise it is just a fundamentalism,it works for both sides.

I never made the claim, so I don't have to prove anything.

So whats your arguement is about.

What I just said. You are deliberately misrepresenting science and dismissing facts that do not fit your worldview. You are making claims without any evidence and asserting that they are scientific.

No,thats not true.
We don't have any evidence which prove that evolution doesn't need intelligence and supernatural power.

Nobody here has claimed it doesn't. You have to provide evidence if you want to claim that it does.

OK dismiss it,whats the problem.

I'm trying to educate you.

Yes you are right that many educated people believe lots of silly things and i guess Darwin is one among others. :yes:

He may have been. Except, the things that he discovered, tested and documented have been repeatedly and consistently confirmed by objective verification.

No,i don't believe the story of the Doctor just because he followed Islam,but its up to you if you think so.

Then do you believe claims of the sighting of the virgin Mary, or the accounts of the founder of the Mormon religion, or people who have experienced flashbacks to past lives? If all the outlandish things you're willing to believe happen to coincide with your particular belief structure, the only reasonable conclusion is cognitive dissonance on your part.

i didn't say evidence but a message.

Or it could be neither.

As if your mind is capable of moving out of its box.

I'm willing to believe anything provided I have sufficient rational justification for doing so. I don't believe things just because they fit the religious perspective I already have, and I certainly don't distort reality to fit my preconceptions like you do. Hence, I accept evolution theory and dismiss all ridiculous claims made by people that have no factual evidence or objective verification. If you can provide decent evidence for any supernatural claim, please do so. You'd be doing you and me a great favour.

 

[FearGod]

Look at it again:

"If you know exactly how it did evolved and what had happened millions of years ago,then till us the story with your evidence and scientific analysis."

Who has claimed any of these things and why are you asking me?


We know mutations occur, and all the evidence suggests that they are the cause of speciation. That is not "guesswork", that's following the evidence where it leads.


Can you prove that reality isn't a dream state created by artificial intelligence in the future? Nobody here has said anything about supernatural causation. Science is silence on the subject of the supernatural.


No, that's confusion, because your arguments make no sense.


Yes, you are.


Can you demonstrate that?


Can you demonstrate that?

Also, what do I believe in? I haven't discussed my beliefs with you at all.


Actual science. If you believe that there has to be a "plan", you're welcome to prove it.


You clearly don't understand science if you think those are the only two options. If it really bothers you that the Universe may have an element of randomness in it, then you neither understand science nor do you understand reality in general.


Do you call "mutations are caused by magic" science?


No I'm not. I've never once said that in this thread or any other.


I never made the claim, so I don't have to prove anything.


What I just said. You are deliberately misrepresenting science and dismissing facts that do not fit your worldview. You are making claims without any evidence and asserting that they are scientific.


Nobody here has claimed it doesn't. You have to provide evidence if you want to claim that it does.


I'm trying to educate you.


He may have been. Except, the things that he discovered, tested and documented have been repeatedly and consistently confirmed by objective verification.


Then do you believe claims of the sighting of the virgin Mary, or the accounts of the founder of the Mormon religion, or people who have experienced flashbacks to past lives? If all the outlandish things you're willing to believe happen to coincide with your particular belief structure, the only reasonable conclusion is cognitive dissonance on your part.


Or it could be neither.


I'm willing to believe anything provided I have sufficient rational justification for doing so. I don't believe things just because they fit the religious perspective I already have, and I certainly don't distort reality to fit my preconceptions like you do. Hence, I accept evolution theory and dismiss all ridiculous claims made by people that have no factual evidence or objective verification. If you can provide decent evidence for any supernatural claim, please do so. You'd be doing you and me a great favour.

i do insist that there is no scientific evidence to exclude a supenatural deity of controlling the process of evolution.

 

[AndromedaRXJ]

By definition, you can't have evidence for the supernatural, otherwise it wouldn't be supernatural.

It might as well be as synonym for non-existent.

 

[Agnostic75]

I do insist that there is no scientific evidence to exclude a supernatural deity of controlling the process of evolution.

You are correct, the National Academy of Sciences Is neutral about the existence of God.

I insist that there is no scientific evidence to exclude eternally existing energy that has the same "creative" attributes as the God of Islam does, but lacks consciousness, and self-awareness like humans have, and like God supposedly has.

Currently, science cannot settle the existence of the existence of God beyond a reasonable doubt. The search for truth does not have a time limit. A hundred years from now, or a thousand years from now, perhaps the issue of the existence of God will be settled. So, people must use other kinds of evidence to try to settle the issue for themselves.

Even if science conclusively proved that a naturalistic universe is just as probable as a theistic universe is, you would make a case for Islam for non-scientific reasons. As you know, many Christians make a case for Christianity without mentioning science.

The majority of non-Muslims already believe in various gods.