Atheism people have a belief "God does not exist "

[Thermos aquaticus]

yes and then the scientists opens her/his mind and they realize they were observing it right but thinking it wrong based on bias from previous experience. in some philosophical circles it's called the conditional mind.

In other words, there are no inner realities since reality can't be wrong. What you have are inner beliefs that can be shown wrong when confronted with reality.

thank you for noticing. some realities are bigger than others. when people stop questioning, they stop realizing. they start fantasizing. the path finders don't follow the rigid rules; especially when the science has come to an impass. they find another way

There is only one reality.

 

[Fool]

No, two theists won't be exactly alike. So what? Atheism still isn't a belief. It's a non-belief in what theists claim. Atheists aren't driven by that. I'm driven by other things entirely. If you want to discuss what I do believe, we can do that instead.

systems are defined by their absences of things as much as they are by their occupation. it's called the process of elimination.

i think they use that to identify new things. in medicine they use it to discover diseases/illnesses.

 

[Fool]

A photon is a wave or a particle, depending on the situation. I would suggest that you read up on modern physics.



On my end of the spectrum I have objective evidence and experimental support. It's not woo.

its wooo. i have consciousnes and yet your science can't determine how it arises, what is its cause.


unfortunately some things are not within our control, and without control, your science doesn't work.

all you got left then.....................is belief.

 

[Jesster]

systems are defined by their absences of things as much as they are by their occupation. it's called the process of elimination.

i think they use that to identify new things. in medicine they use it to discover diseases/illnesses.

Atheism isn't a system either. There's nothing there. All it means is that I am not a theist. I live my life by other means.

Like others have said before, not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

its wooo. i have consciousnes and yet your science can't determine how it arises, what is its cause.

That's an argument from ignorance, a regular feature of woo.

unfortunately some things are not within our control, and without control, your science doesn't work.

The Milky Way galaxy is not under our control, yet our science perfectly describes it.

 

[Willamena]

It's the lack of proofs/evidence that leads to atheism.

The lack of a "god" is evidence.

 

[Willamena]

Atheism people hold a "Negative Faith", I believe, so they tend to be curious. Right, please?

Regards

Some undoubtedly hold themselves to be the antithesis of the person of faith, and want to know why the other holds the beliefs they do.

But not all.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

The lack of a "god" is evidence.

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Actually the proper saying would be " . . . is not necessarily evidence of absence". If the existence of something or an event would definitely leave evidence then the absence of that evidence is evidence of absence. I quite often use the claim of a neighbor of a herd of buffaloes stampeding through ones kitchen. If you rushed over and saw a pristine kitchen that would be very good "evidence of absence" of the herd of buffalo. The question is should a god leave evidence of its existence? Some specific gods should leave such evidence and the lack of such evidence would be evidence against that version of god, but not necessarily of all gods.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

Actually the proper saying would be " . . . is not necessarily evidence of absence". If the existence of something or an event would definitely leave evidence then the absence of that evidence is evidence of absence. I quite often use the claim of a neighbor of a herd of buffaloes stampeding through ones kitchen. If you rushed over and saw a pristine kitchen that would be very good "evidence of absence" of the herd of buffalo. The question is should a god leave evidence of its existence? Some specific gods should leave such evidence and the lack of such evidence would be evidence against that version of god, but not necessarily of all gods.

For me, it is realizing that we have limited knowledge of the universe around us so we shouldn't base our arguments on universal negatives.

 

[Subduction Zone]

For me, it is realizing that we have limited knowledge of the universe around us so we shouldn't base our arguments on universal negatives.

And I agree. One has to be rather careful when using absence of evidence. My post was just a small tweak to your prior one.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That is what God will do, continue to use His Method.
You cannot know what God wants, not without reading what the Messenger revealed.

You assume wrong. God wants you to accept the evidence He provides and He is not willing to barter on that. That does not mean that God does not want your belief, although it does mean God does not need your belief.

God did create you with a logical rational thinking brain and God expects you and everyone else to use it. Baha’u’llah said that right in this passage:

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people”means that God could have revealed Himself in some way such that everyone would know He exists.In that passage, “ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean” means using your reason (innate powers) to determine if God exists. God wants everyone to search for Him and determine that He exists by using their own reason.

There is absolutely nothing reasonable about God speaking directly into the ears of each and every one of the 7.4 billion people in the world and saying “I exist.” That is the most UN-reasonable thing I have ever heard in my entire life, but this is what more than one atheist has told me they expect, in order to believe in God.

So, is this external verification God speaking to you directly so you can be sure it is God? I cannot think of anything else it could be.

I guess you missed my point. The ‘facts’ I used to ‘verify’ that Baha’u’llah was who He claimed to be and actually received a revelation from God is what I did BEFORE I believed in Baha’u’llah.

The ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts was an INTERPRETATION of their religious texts AFTER they had come to believe in Muhammad. They misconstrued their texts and that is why they thought it was okay to commit terrorist acts. Muhammad never condoned their behavior.

By verifiable do you mean God showing up to verify Himself or speaking to you directly? If you read the Writings of Baha'ullah you would know why that is absolutely impossible.

The world would quickly turn into mayhem is everyone waited for verifiable evidence (which is in effect proof ) that God exists. You would quickly find out what a world is like where nobody believes in God. Fear of God is the chief instrument for order in the world.

“The first word which the Abhá Pen hath revealed and inscribed on the first leaf of Paradise is this: “Verily I say: The fear of God hath ever been a sure defence and a safe stronghold for all the peoples of the world. It is the chief cause of the protection of mankind, and the supreme instrument for its preservation. Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it. It is incumbent upon the kings and the spiritual leaders of the world to lay fast hold on religion, inasmuch as through it the fear of God is instilled in all else but Him.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

"You assume wrong. God wants you to accept the evidence He provides and He is not willing to barter on that. That does not mean that God does not want your belief, although it does mean God does not need your belief."

Then this god you speak of isn't very intelligent. Since god KNOWS that the way it created my rational thinking brain makes it impossible for me to accept the 'evidence' it provides as sufficient, then god either does NOT want me to believe, or god is too stupid to realize that it created me with a brain that makes it impossible for me to believe. That's akin to saying that god created me with lungs, but god WANTS me to be able to breath under water as if I had gills. That's not a terribly bright god, in my opinion.

"There is absolutely nothing reasonable about God speaking directly into the ears of each and every one of the 7.4 billion people in the world and saying “I exist.” That is the most UN-reasonable thing I have ever heard in my entire life, but this is what more than one atheist has told me they expect, in order to believe in God."

It is reasonable IF this god actually wants me to believe. And why exactly would this be so unreasonable? Is it beyond your god's abilities?

Clearly your god's 'time honored method' doesn't work very well. IF indeed your god WANTS everyone to believe in it. After all, there are apparently only 5-7 million followers of Baha'ullah out of over 7.5 BILLION people in the world. Your god is succeeding it using the 'time honored method' with less that 1% of the population. If your god WANTS 100% of the population to believe, then CLEARLY your god's method is a failure.

"The ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts was an INTERPRETATION of their religious texts AFTER they had come to believe in Muhammad. "

And how exactly do you KNOW this to be true? I've spoken with plenty of Christians and Muslims and they ALL claim that have received a revelation from god BEFORE they believed. How do you know that they are lying? And how would anyone know that you are telling the truth? You BOTH use the same flawed method of 'internally' verifying evidence, with is NOT verifiable.

"You would quickly find out what a world is like where nobody believes in God. Fear of God is the chief instrument for order in the world."

This is by far the saddest thing that you have posted. I find it deplorable and frightening to learn that the only reason you don't spread mayhem throughout the world is because you fear what god will think or do. Don't you possess the ability to empathize with others? Don't you naturally understand that if you wouldn't want someone to do something to you that you probably shouldn't do it to others?

 

[paarsurrey]

The lack of a "god" is evidence.

But they don't give any evidences/proofs to that end which they are so fond of .
Regards

 

[Subduction Zone]

But they don't give any evidences/proofs to that end which they are so fond of .
Regards

Again, none is needed. Do you deny evidence for the non-existence of galaxy farting pixies?

Evidence is needed to support a positive claim. Atheism is a lack of belief, usually due to the lack of evidence for any god, just as their is a lack of evidence for galaxy farting pixies.


Why is the lack of evidence for one good reason not to believe but not the lack of evidence for another?

 

[Jesster]

But they don't give any evidences/proofs to that end which they are so fond of .
Regards

Evidence or proof of what?

 

[Willamena]

As the old saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

It's not evidence that is lacking, but "God/gods.'

PS: If I were told there is a spade in the garage, and I search the garage and find no evidence of a spade, I do have evidence of no spade. Evidence is not lacking.

 

[Trailblazer]

It’s not a question of “owing;” it’s a question of what possible reason we would have to believe in a god who, from our perspective, is indistinguishable from a god that doesn’t exist.

He is indistinguishable if you don’t recognize the Messenger of God as Him.
God is not going to distinguish Himself in any other way.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you claim.

No, so Baha’u’llah claimed.

Again, that's just based on your say so. Also, I would think that an all powerful deity would be able to make sound waves in our atmosphere.

No, based upon Baha’u’llah’s say so as well as all the evidence He provided to prove that He was telling the truth.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Yes, God could do something like that to prove He exists but Baha’u’llah explained in so many words what would happen if He did:

“Were the Eternal Essence to manifest all that is latent within Him, were He to shine in the plentitude of His glory, none would be found to question His power or repudiate His truth. Nay, all created things would be so dazzled and thunderstruck by the evidences of His light as to be reduced to utter nothingness. How, then, can the godly be differentiated under such circumstances from the froward?”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 71-72

It is not as if Baha’u’llah does not explain why God does what God does and why God does not do what He does not do.

 

[Trailblazer]

At last. But im guessing you will have dropped the false bit by ther next argument. Seems to happen a lot.

There was nothing “false” about what I said a couple of posts ago. Note that the statistics were from 1910-2010.

The growth rates of the Abrahamic religions from 1910-2010 were as follows: Judaism .11%, Christianity 1.32%, Islam 1.97%, and Baha’i Faith 3.54%.

From 2000-2010 Islam became the fastest growing religion (1.86 %) and the Baha’i Faith was the second fastest growing religion (1.72%).
Statistics from: Growth of religion - Wikipedia

The growth rates of the Baha’i Faith were higher than Islam from 1910 to 2010 because that time period includes the “formative age” of the Baha’i Faith (1921-1944) FOURTH PERIOD: THE INCEPTION OF THE FORMATIVE AGE OF THE BAHÁ’Í FAITH 1921–1944

Growth has slowed down since 2000 because the new goal of the Baha’i Faith is consolidation and community building rather than teaching the Faith, which explains why the growth rate has dropped to 1.72%.

Here is some Pew data. A lot of waffle trying to mask the results but the actual data is sound

Religiously Unaffiliated

I found this interesting too

Atheism to Defeat Religion By 2038 | HuffPost

Thanks for the link to the articles. I have saved those off to my directory for future reference.

I am not surprised that more and more people are dropping out of religions and this is actually a good thing (see below).

A couple of quotes from the second article:

“Countries with the best standard of living are turning atheist. That shift offers a glimpse into the world’s future.”

The increase in atheism could be because in these countries were primarily Christian and Christianity is on the decline in countries where people have higher levels of education and thus higher standards of living; so with that education they can no longer “believe in” the superstitious doctrines of Christianity.

“Religious people are annoyed by claims that belief in God will go the way of horse transportation, and for much the same reason, specifically an improved standard of living.”

I am not a bit annoyed because I know that eventually everyone in the world will believe in God, and they will all adhere to one common faith; but first the world has to go through a transition whereby people realize that their older religions are no longer pertinent or useful for this new age of mankind.

During this transition people will drop out of their religions and many will become atheists or agnostics, although some will retain their belief in God. This is actually a good thing, because as long as people cling to the older religions, not many people will become Baha’is, since religious tradition is the primary reason why people do not accept the Baha’i Faith.

As I previously posted, about 60% of people in the United States still believe that Jesus is coming back from the sky on a cloud. Most of the younger generation is no longer willing to adhere to such a superstitious belief so many are not remaining in the Christian religion they grew up with. But all the middle-aged and older people are going to continue to wait for Jesus; so as long as they are alive that slows the growth of the Baha’i Faith, since our belief that Baha’u’llah was the return of Christ is antagonistic to their belief that the same man Jesus is going to return.

 

[Trailblazer]

So, is this external verification God speaking to you directly so you can be sure it is God? I cannot think of anything else it could be.

I am sure it is God speaking to me even though He is not speaking to me directly.

"You assume wrong. God wants you to accept the evidence He provides and He is not willing to barter on that. That does not mean that God does not want your belief, although it does mean God does not need your belief."

Then this god you speak of isn't very intelligent. Since god KNOWS that the way it created my rational thinking brain makes it impossible for me to accept the 'evidence' it provides as sufficient,

How can you possibly know if the evidence is sufficient without even looking at it?

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

“Again, a man proclaims: ‘There lies a garden in which there are trees with broken branches bearing no fruit, and the leaves thereof are faded and yellow! In that garden, also, there are flowering plants with no blooms, and rose bushes withered and dying—go not into that garden!’ A just man, hearing this account of the garden, would not be content without seeing for himself whether it be true or not. He, therefore, enters the garden, and behold, he finds it well tilled; the branches of the trees are sturdy and strong, being also loaded with the sweetest of ripe fruits amongst the luxuriance of beautiful green leaves.The flowering plants are bright with many-hued blossoms; the rose bushes are covered with fragrant and lovely roses and all is verdant and well tended. When the glory of the garden is spread out before the eyes of the just man, he praises God that, through unworthy calumny, he has been led into a place of such wondrous beauty!” Paris Talks, pp. 103-104

Oh wait, it is a Messenger so it cannot be sufficient since you want something else that is more verifiable, perhaps direct communication from God to you. Stupid me, I should know this already having posted to atheists on forums day and night for four years.

.... then god either does NOT want me to believe, or god is too stupid to realize that it created me with a brain that makes it impossible for me to believe. That's akin to saying that god created me with lungs, but god WANTS me to be able to breath under water as if I had gills. That's not a terribly bright god, in my opinion.

No, God knows you have the capacity to recognize His Messenger and those are his terms. If you don’t like those terms then you just won’t ever know that God exists or get the message.

“Suffer not yourselves to be wrapt in the dense veils of your selfish desires, inasmuch as I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

"There is absolutely nothing reasonable about God speaking directly into the ears of each and every one of the 7.4 billion people in the world and saying “I exist.” That is the most UN-reasonable thing I have ever heard in my entire life, but this is what more than one atheist has told me they expect, in order to believe in God."

It is reasonable IF this god actually wants me to believe. And why exactly would this be so unreasonable? Is it beyond your god's abilities?

It is unreasonable because it is unnecessary, since God can speak to one Messenger who can write down the message and make it available to everyone in the world. But no, it is not beyond God’s abilities.

“He Who is the Day Spring of Truth is, no doubt, fully capable of rescuing from such remoteness wayward souls and of causing them to draw nigh unto His court and attain His Presence.“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse. Thus hath it been ordained by the all-glorious and resplendent Pen…”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 70-71

In that passage, “If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people” means that God could communicate in such a way that everyone would believe in Him – all men one people.

By the way, that is going to happen in the future, after everyone in the world has recognized Baha’u’llah:
Isaiah 11:9 “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” means that everyone will believe in God. There will only be one religion, the religion of God.

Clearly your god's 'time honored method' doesn't work very well. IF indeed your god WANTS everyone to believe in it. After all, there are apparently only 5-7 million followers of Baha'ullah out of over 7.5 BILLION people in the world. Your god is succeeding it using the 'time honored method' with less that 1% of the population. If your god WANTS 100% of the population to believe, then CLEARLY your god's method is a failure.

About 93% of people in the world believe in God. They do not all have to believe in the “new religion.” It takes a long time for new religions to catch on, mostly because most people already have an older religion that they are attached to and believe is the only true religion.

God does not need 100% belief. God would like everyone to believe in Him but God does not need everyone to believe in Him and God is not ever going to force people to believe in Him. It has to be a free will choice.

"The ‘facts’ the terrorists gleaned from THEIR religious texts was an INTERPRETATION of their religious texts AFTER they had come to believe in Muhammad. "

And how exactly do you KNOW this to be true? I've spoken with plenty of Christians and Muslims and they ALL claim that have received a revelation from god BEFORE they believed. How do you know that they are lying? And how would anyone know that you are telling the truth? You BOTH use the same flawed method of 'internally' verifying evidence, with is NOT verifiable.

I did not say they are lying. I suppose that is possible that they believed they heard from God before they joined the religion. I was only saying that they did not get the idea to be terrorists from a correct interpretation of the Qur’an.

You do not have to believe a thing I say and in fact you should not believe it. You should investigate it for yourself, IF you want to know if it is the truth. That’s what I did.

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.” Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62.

"You would quickly find out what a world is like where nobody believes in God. Fear of God is the chief instrument for order in the world."

This is by far the saddest thing that you have posted. I find it deplorable and frightening to learn that the only reason you don't spread mayhem throughout the world is because you fear what god will think or do. Don't you possess the ability to empathize with others? Don't you naturally understand that if you wouldn't want someone to do something to you that you probably shouldn't do it to others?

Please re-read this part of the passage:

“Indeed, there existeth in man a faculty which deterreth him from, and guardeth him against, whatever is unworthy and unseemly, and which is known as his sense of shame. This, however, is confined to but a few; all have not possessed, and do not possess, it.” Epistle to the Son of the Wolf

Sadly, not everyone has the ability to empathize with others or naturally understands that if you wouldn't want someone to do something to you that you probably shouldn't do it to others. Most people need to believe that there is a God to behave as they should because not many people have a sense of shame.

But really it is more than that. People are inherently selfish so without a belief in God most people have no reason not to be selfish. So even though most atheists I know are upstanding citizens, paragons of virtue, they do not realize that the reason they are that way is because at one time in their lives, and even now through society, they have been affected by religion. Jesus said, love thy neighbor and do onto others; that did not magically drop out of the sky!