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Atheism

Rival

Diex Aie
Staff member
Premium Member
If it was a class at a normal university we would call it a religion class.

Oh wow. Why can't I meet a man on here? It's not fair. :(
The subject is Theology specifically and covers Christian Theology, e.g. Trinity, Hypostatic Union, Incarnation of Christ and so on. It's not just an overview of religion. We read texts like De Incarnatio, De Trinitate etc. Religion and Theology are not the same. It's very strange no distinction would be made. We discuss whether God can suffer, whether God has emotions, etc. You won't find that in a regular Religious Studies class. I'm sure there will be US universities offering this in a secular sphere.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Not all theists study scripture....
Still, if they have a theology, there is at least on thing they believe.
Atheism requires no beliefs at all.
....and not all theists change religions.
I never changed religions, I have only ever been a Baha'i.
But I was just joking because beings a Baha'i is ANYTHING but effortless! :eek:
From birth, you were a Baha'i without
ever having been told of it?
It would be MUCH easier to be an atheist.
You got dat right!
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The subject is Theology specifically and covers Christian Theology, e.g. Trinity, Hypostatic Union, Incarnation of Christ and so on. It's not just an overview of religion. We read texts like De Incarnatio, De Trinitate etc. Religion and Theology are not the same. It's very strange no distinction would be made. We discuss whether God can suffer, whether God has emotions, etc. You won't find that in a regular Religious Studies class. I'm sure there will be US universities offering this in a secular sphere.
That sounds like an interesting class.
You are probably right, there are probably theology classes at secular universities in the US. I was only remembering when I was in my first college back in 1970, when I took a world religions class. At that time, I was not looking for a theology class and it was only a two-year city college, so they did not have as many class offerings as a university.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
From birth, you were a Baha'i without
ever having been told of it?
No, I became a Baha'i during my first year of college after hearing about it and investigating it. One cannot be born as a Baha'i. They have to be t least 15 years old to join the Baha'i Faith, since that is considered the age where one can reason and make their own decision.

I was not raised in any religion at all. My parents had been raised Christians but they dropped out of the Church long before I was born, so I never saw the inside of a Church, except once when I snuck into the lobby to get some ice cream. :D

After my father dropped out of the Church he became an atheist. I think my mother retained a belief in God, and much later in life, at age 60, she became a Baha'i. She remained a Baha'i until she died at the age of 93.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
No, I became a Baha'i during my first year of college after hearing about it and investigating it. One cannot be born as a Baha'i. They have to be t least 15 years old to join the Baha'i Faith, since that is considered the age where one can reason and make their own decision.

I was not raised in any religion at all. My parents had been raised Christians but they dropped out of the Church long before I was born, so I never saw the inside of a Church, except once when I snuck into the lobby to get some ice cream. :D

After my father dropped out of the Church he became an atheist. I think my mother retained a belief in God, and much later in life, at age 60, she became a Baha'i. She remained a Baha'i until she died at the age of 93.
Well there ya go...much more work than
my being born not believing, & never
straying from that effortless non-path.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Well there ya go...much more work than
my being born not believing, & never
straying from that effortless non-path.
Most Americans in our age bracket were born of Christian parents who passed that along to their children, since back in the 1950s, 95% of Americans were Christians.

So, you are one of those rare American birds who was born into atheism... Lucky you!
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Most Americans in our age bracket were born of Christian parents who passed that along to their children, since back in the 1950s, 95% of Americans were Christians.
I remember school in the 50s....prayers required in
public schools. (I never joined in.) Fortunately,
SCOTUS ended that requirement in the 60s as I recall.
So, you are one of those rare American birds who was born into atheism... Lucky you!
I've led a charmed life.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I remember school in the 50s....prayers required in
public schools. (I never joined in.) Fortunately,
SCOTUS ended that requirement in the 60s as I recall.
Funny thing. I was raised in Indiana and I don't remember any prayers in public school.
Then later, after my father died, we moved to upstate NY, and one year my mother put me and my sister in a Catholic school.
I was completely dismayed and even frightened at times, since I had no idea what was going on with "the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." :confused:
I've led a charmed life.
Lucky you. Must be nice. I have not been so fortunate. :(

I just thought of another thing that makes atheism easier and I might even start a new thread on that. Atheism is easier because atheists don't have to wait for God to help and they don't have to blame God when bad things happen or when good things don't happen. :D
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Most Americans in our age bracket were born of Christian parents who passed that along to their children, since back in the 1950s, 95% of Americans were Christians.

So, you are one of those rare American birds who was born into atheism... Lucky you!
Isn't everyone born without a belief in God -- or anything else, for that matter?
Theology is learned.
 

PoetPhilosopher

Veteran Member
What do you mean by magical thinking? Do you mean anything paranormal?

Yes.

I think now, if I experience anything that can't be explained, I'll implement Occam's Razor in trying to figure things out. At least in some instances.

There may also be times when I don't so much question/scrutinize there being a god or gods, but just ask myself "What is the point in believing in it?" At times, I think about that more than thinking "So a god or gods aren't real."

So to answer, for me, my definition of magical thinking = gods, ghosts, the universe as a supernatural thing
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I just thought of another thing that makes atheism easier and I might even start a new thread on that. Atheism is easier because atheists don't have to wait for God to help and they don't have to blame God when bad things happen or when good things don't happen. :D
I'm sure that many atheists blame others
for problems of their own making too.
We just don't have God/Allah/Cthulhu
at our disposal.
However, I regularly take the vaunted
trio's names in vain.
 

Clizby Wampuscat

Well-Known Member
I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but these past couple of years, I've slightly changed and improved on some of my ideas, I feel. And tried to become more a critical thinker. These past couple of days, I've been playing a lot of this video game which I find a little relaxing, and while I've played, I've been thinking hard about life. And it made me realize that I want to try life without magic thinking - no gods, no magic, no spirit world, and probably no aliens since I feel there either isn't evidence for them, or the evidence doesn't hold up.

I realize I have embraced religious thinking a lot these past two or three weeks, so it may come as a surprise that today, I was trying to try thinking without any of the 'magical thinking' (and so far, it has been going well for me), but I think my greater push towards religion and magical thinking was just that - it was a push-back to a more logical form of thinking getting under my skin, and it was my response to being afraid of something a bit "new". But now, I've gotten over that fear.

So I realize if I do eventually identify with atheism, if this way of thinking does work out for me..... that I feel it's not going to be easy, because it involves scrutinizing evidence, fact-finding, and really putting in the work and effort (in my opinion), so to speak. But I feel I'm getting closer and closer to being ready for such a thing, should I pursue it.
Atheism and critical thinking are not synonymous. Critical thinking and real skepticism can lead to atheism but I know of atheists that believe in crystal healing and homeopathy.

I am glad to see you moving in the right direction, it takes work. Or at least it did for me.
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Rejecting religious mythology and magical thinking doesn't make one an atheist. Because religion is not theism. They are not the same things. Being a-religious does not mean you're an atheist.
Not sure why you thought this was a response to my post..I didn't say anything about religion. I said there can come a time when a person can no longer believe in certain things. Since the topic was atheism I was speaking about theism which is:
  1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
    "there are many different forms of theism"
I went on to say that does not mean one has to reject the mysterious of life as unimportant or not appreciate the feeling and awe mystery can bring. It only means it becomes impossible to make up or believe in other's stories that have zero evidence. The atheist can no longer believe in ideas such as gods or other unevidenced ideas when the ultimate meaning of those mysteries is unknowable as of now.

You and anyone else of course, are free to imagine and believe in all of the unevidenced ideas you can possibly think up.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
Not sure why you thought this was a response to my post..I didn't say anything about religion. I said there can come a time when a person can no longer believe in certain things. Since the topic was atheism I was speaking about theism which is:
  1. belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.
    "there are many different forms of theism"
That is not theism. That's not even religious theism. Theism is not a "belief" and does not require any gods. Theism is an array of philosophical propositions based on the question of source, sustenance, and purpose of existence.
I went on to say that does not mean one has to reject the mysterious of life as unimportant or not appreciate the feeling and awe mystery can bring. It only means it becomes impossible to make up or believe in other's stories that have zero evidence.
First, why are you letting other people define God for you? Why don't you develop that question and possibility for yourself?

Second, what "evidence" for God is it that you are expecting you would have before you as verification if God exists? And how have you decided this is to be a logical expectation of evidence? Because honestly, if God were hovering in the air in front of me right this minute, in a blaze of glory (whatever that'd look like) I still would have no possible way of verifying that this apparition was God. So, I can't see what possible evidence there could be lacking that any atheists thinks should be present, that convinces them that there are no gods.

Thirdly, atheists constantly complain that mythical images and stories about gods are not factual or historical, which means nothing at all, since mythical images and stories were never intended to be factual or historical. And the fact that a few foolish theists propose them to be factual does not justify some foolish atheist assuming the same. The rejection of myth as fact is completely meaningless and irrelevant. Like saying the Star Wars story does not depict the future. Of course it doesn't. That was never it's purpose.

Also, a great many theists don't believe or disbelieve in God or gods. They simply choose to trust in the idea, and hope that doing so beings them a positive outcome. This is called faith, not belief. Most theism is based in this faith, and not on delusional beliefs. Belief being a belief in the righteousness of one's own chosen ideology. Once you jettison this whole insistence on belief/disbelief, you will finally begin to see what theism is really about, and why what's commonly being touted as atheism is so bogus.

But you have to open your mind and be willing to really examine these concepts for that to happen. Are you? Because most people here are not. And that includes both theists and atheists.
 
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wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
That is not theism. That's not even religious theism. Theism is not a "belief" and does not require any gods. Theism is an array of philosophical propositions based on the question of source, sustenance, and purpose of existence.
I'm sorry, but before contemplating your other ideas, you are going to have to explain the above because when people communicate, they need to be speaking the same language. I will once again define theism as it is defined by every single dictionary and philosophy web page source i looked at. And all of them involve God or gods. Then you can explain your definition of theism. Because it differs from 35 different sources. If I don't know your particular understanding of what theism is, there is no way to address your question. Here it is again from way down the list of entry sources. Oxford and Cambridge are my top go to dictionaries when I am looking for a common definition that most people agree upon. But for you, I am quoting an obscure source. Please explain what is wrong with this definition and then define theism with a link to your source so I can understand what you believe theism is.

"Theism incorporates Monotheism (belief in one God), Polytheism (belief in many gods) and Deism (belief in one or more gods who do not intervene in the world), as well as Pantheism (belief that God and the universe are the same thing), Panentheism (belief that God is everywhere in the universe but still greater and above the universe) and many other variants."

Thanks.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm sorry, but before contemplating your other ideas, you are going to have to explain the above because when people communicate, they need to be speaking the same language. I will once again define theism as it is defined by every single dictionary and philosophy web page source i looked at. And all of them involve God or gods.
There are several problems with this perspective. One is that dictionaries do not document logical or reasonable word usage. They only document common word usage, which is very often illogical to the point of being absurd. There is nothing at all logical in the assumption that gay people are homosexual, or that homosexuals are especially gay. And yet if you look up the word gay in the dictionary you will find that it refers, now days, to being homosexual far more commonly than it is being used to refer to an emotional state. It's neither logical nor rational, and yet there it is. Because that's how we use the word these days.

And it got that way because people very often use words to deliberately NOT say what they really mean to imply, or to imply something far more influential than what they are actually saying. And this is especially true when it comes to discussing people's biases and prejudices, or areas of thought that people are not particularly knowledgeable about.

The point being that in a discussion wherein logic and reason are going to be the main methods of achieving understanding or consensus, we need the primary terms to be logical and reasonable, too. In this case the terms being theism and it's antithetical; atheism. And here is why your chosen definition of the term theism is not reasonable or logical: ... that theism is, "belief in God/gods". First of all, "belief in" is a statement of surety, not of content. It refers to the degree to which one holds certain that their "idea of X" is the "truth of X". Which says nothing at all about the content of "X". So "believing in" (or not believing in) something is completely irrelevant to the something being discussed: i.e., theism and atheism. And to emphasize that point I would observe that there are many theists, and even religious theists, that do not "believe in" the existence of God/gods. Most Buddhists, for example. And most Taoists as well. And there are many other old and new and independent theologies of a similar sort. Even many Abrahamic religionists do not "believe in" God, strictly speaking, but rather trust in a chosen idea of God as a method of living, simply because doing that seems to work for them in a positive way. But not because they have convinced themselves that their idea of God is the truth of God (i.e., belief).

So why would we use a definition of theism that doesn't even apply to a huge number of theists? And if we were to do so, what do we call all those theists that are being left out? Do we just ignore them? Are they now "atheists" because they don't "believe in God/gods"? Yet many agnostics don't believe in any gods, either. So do they also become atheists, now, too? How about the undecideds? They also don't "believe in any gods". Are they now atheists? And what about all those people who simply don't care about the existence of gods one way or another. The indifferent ones. Are they also atheists, now? What good is the term "atheist" if all these different people with all these different ideas and attitudes about the question of God's existence are being labeled as the same thing? And the only people NOT being labeled atheists by that definition are those who have convinced themselves that their idea of God is God.

And we haven't even discussed the many variations of the idea of "God" there are. Many of which conflict with the others. So which ideas of God are considered "God" and are therefor part of the definition of "theism" and which ideas of God are not included under the definition of "theism"? And if they are not "theism", then what are they? And what about Taoism or Buddhism and the others that neither endorse nor oppose the idea of God's existence, and instead accept both perspectives into their ideological camps?

I seems to me that the thing everyone has in common when it comes to theism is the idea of there being some sort of creating and sustaining force that is NOT US, but that is effectively evident in the existential universe, or 'the world' that we are living in. And these people are seeking some way of relating themselves to this mysterious force.

And so the antithetical to that; the "atheist", would then be someone that does not accept the existence of such a creative, sustaining force. Nor any relation to it. (And keep in mind that the term "force" is being used very loosely here, as we do not know what it is, or what better to call it.)
 
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wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
I seems to me that the thing everyone has in common when it comes to theism is the idea of there being some sort of creating and sustaining force that is NOT US, but that is effectively evident in the existential universe, or 'the world' that we are living in. And these people are seeking some way of relating themselves to this mysterious force.
So why not use theism for people who accept some version of a God or gods and spiritual for those who identify with some higher force or sustaining consciousness that isn't a God or gods? There is no way to know anything about either but not necessarily rejecting all possibilities would be your agnostics.

It just seems difficult to understand any discussion if ideas aren't broken down into definitions that most agree on.

Most people would agree that an atheist is someone who has considered both the ideas of various gods presented by others as well as their own ideas of what a God or gods would entail and how that would work and just don't find any ideas about gods plausible and therefore reject ideas about gods as possible.

I guess you're over my head as far as understanding why we can't or shouldn't use accepted definitions for theism especially when there are many different layers that can be explored under the umbrella of theism. Theism is about gods. Spirituality can be but doesn't have to be about gods and concerns all other higher power, consciousness,/force ideas. Seems simpler to me.

Anyway, house full of grandkids. Thanks for the post.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
So why not use theism for people who accept some version of a God or gods and spiritual for those who identify with some higher force or sustaining consciousness that isn't a God or gods?
I don't see a difference here. "God" is just a word we use to refer to that mysterious force that creates and sustains all that is. Because it's such a profound mystery, people imagine it in all kinds of ways, from a 'big beardy guy in the sky', to the most subtle 'spiritual' whisper.
There is no way to know anything about either but not necessarily rejecting all possibilities would be your agnostics.
Actually, no. "Agnosticism" is the philosophical position that we humans don't or can't know the nature or existence of God. It does not, however, preclude anyone from choosing a position on God's nature or existence based on some other criteria besides knowledge, like functionality, or a desired preference. Thus, there are many agnostic theists, and agnostic atheists. People who understand that they cannot KNOW the nature or existence of God, but have chosen to accept one position or the other based on some other criteria besides knowing.

Agnosticism is not atheism. And is not theism. It's a position that is specifically related to what we can or can't know (gnosis). And in this instance it relates specifically to a lack of knowledge (i.e., "agnosticism" as opposed to "gnosticism").
It just seems difficult to understand any discussion if ideas aren't broken down into definitions that most agree on.
I agree. But in a debate like this, the disagreement precedes the debate, itself. Which often causes the debaters to debate the terms even before they can debate their content. Which is why proposing an empty term like "atheism is unbelief" is so frustrating and disingenuous; because it presumes to hold no content or position. And it's being used to force the theist into a position of having to convince the antagonist while the antagonist gets to position himself as a completely unchecked and unexamined judge. It's so grossly biased a set-up that it's a waste of time to engage in it. Yet this has become the 'go-to' position for most atheists these days. And is why they so adamantly refuse to let go of this "atheism is unbelief" mantra. Without it they'd have to debate fairly. And that won;t go very well for most of them.
Most people would agree that an atheist is someone who has considered both the ideas of various gods presented by others as well as their own ideas of what a God or gods would entail and how that would work and just don't find any ideas about gods plausible and therefore reject ideas about gods as possible.
I have no issue with that atheist at all except that his argument from ignorance is weak. But then when it comes to the question of "God", we're all arguing from ignorance, aren't we. Unfortunately, I almost never encounter that atheist. Instead, I encounter the ones that want to rig the game and cheat the debate so they can avoid having to offer or defend their actual positions. While freely attacking anyone else's and demanding evidences and proofs that they couldn't possible supply on behalf of their own positions. (Which is why they want to keep it hidden.)
I guess you're over my head as far as understanding why we can't or shouldn't use accepted definitions for theism especially when there are many different layers that can be explored under the umbrella of theism.
The problem is that in a debate setting, if we allow the terms to be too vague ad all inclusive, it becomes way too tempting for a participant to simply keep moving the focus anytime they feel back into a corner. And I've seen it happen many times. There are some people on this site that do that constantly. Like it's some sort of emotional hobby. A "ha ha, you can't get me!" kind of thing.
Theism is about gods. Spirituality can be but doesn't have to be about gods and concerns all other higher power, consciousness,/force ideas. Seems simpler to me.
I think your mind is stuck on a specific idea of what a god is. (Like some sort of supernatural personage.) But for a great many theists, that idea doesn't include their idea of what god is. They don't use that kind of anthropomorphic imagery in their minds. And they don't relate to God in that way. Yet they are clearly theists. In that they hold the idea of a creative and sustaining, and often controlling force being expressed within existence in very high regard, and seek to align themselves with it as a way of fulfilling their intended destiny.
Anyway, house full of grandkids. Thanks for the post.
Enjoy!
 
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