Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
280 comments later and we're still debating the definition of Atheism?:canoe:
Getting nowhere fast......
Getting nowhere fast......
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Atheist Desire to Disprove God
- Thread starter asketikos
- Start date
McBell
Unbound
Then stop posting your nonsense.
See, problem solved.
Alceste
Vagabond
If he's trying to convince others, just repeating "disbelief is belief!" over and over again is a pisspoor strategy.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
So if you believe an idea to be false.....
What you believe is not a belief?
You've been banging this back and forth....with denial.
Denial is a belief....a declaration.
And the consequence.....
God will deny you exist.
And then you won't.
How's that for strategy?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
This isn't hard. Yes, atheism can also be the belief that God doesn't exist. However, it can also be simply the lack of belief that God exists.
Strategy? I didn't realize there was strategy involved in deciding whether or not a being exists in reality.
Also, fear isn't a very good motivator to believe in God. You're trying to scare us with a being we can see from the evidence is ridiculously unlikely to exist. And a god who poofs me out of existence because he gave me a rational mind and a complete lack of evidence for his existence but still expects me to believe he exists? That's not a god I want to believe in or worship anyway.
McBell
Unbound
One wonders if it will ever sink in that your fear tactics and completely empty threats do nothing to help your argument.
In fact, fear tactics and empty threats merely lend credence to your desperation.
Or perhaps the desperation is not yours?
Perhaps the desperation is that of your god?
Hows that for a strategy?
Seems to me that it sucks.
But hey, you go with what you know, right?
Orias
Left Hand Path
I simply stated that the belief that one is true or right in proposition to an aspect makes a subsequent belief.
I do realize atheism is a lack of belief, as much as it is a disbelief, a belief in nothing and so on.
Instead of teaming up against me, maybe you should realize that belief is catagorized by one who believes they are right, which would include you, all of you.
Sure, you may have an accessory that may add on to your belief, but that doesn't exclude the "fact" that atheism is a label used to describe and narrow down "God belief". Now, whether you belief, don't belief, or you belief you lack "belief" you put yourself into a descriptive category that adheres to ontological and conceptual fabrications.
If atheism isn't a belief then I shouldn't have atheists tell me that they are "atheists" when I ask them what they believe.
Orias
Left Hand Path
Actually no, atheism is a belief because people belief it to be this or that. Simple.
That is what you belief, that like it or not there is atheists out there that agree with me.
I hardly see the connection between education and metphysics. But that must be the argument of the year, irrelevance.
Oh, and your right, I didn't finish highschool yet I have a quater left to go.
Orias
Left Hand Path
It does when I ask a question that is seemingly impossible to answer.
Explains a lot about the other side too :slap:
Gunfingers
Happiness Incarnate
For the same reason that, when asked what kind of bra I wear, I respond "I don't have breasts".
Orias
Left Hand Path
Eliot Wild
Irreverent Agnostic Jerk
Let's face it, this "confusion" is not really that confusing. This is not a hard matter to understand. Even a child can grasp the idea that the lack of belief in God, or a lack of belief in anything else, for that matter, doesn't automatically equate to a belief that God doesn't exist. If one is an atheist, that might mean they hold the belief that God doesn't exist, but it doesn't have to mean that. This is quite simple.
And since it is so simple, I am drawn to conclude there are certain motivations for people to want to confuse the issue.
I believe certain theists want to believe that atheists are opposed to them specifically, opposed specifically to their beliefs including a direct opposition and denial of their God concept.
Believing that atheists actively oppose the idea of their God, rather than that some simply find it beneath them or inconsequential to their lives, is self-empowering to certain theists. It is an ego boost.
I remember being younger, raised in the Christian Faith, and how many pastors and religious teachers would tell me that christianity tends to make people uncomfortable and uneasy with their own beliefs. This was an arrogant self-possession and self-accreditation, a self-validation, if you will. It stems from a need for personal attention. It stems from a need to be important, to have the world heed you and your beliefs because you demand there is value in them. When, in fact, many others find them completely value-less, so much so even, that they might not even hold a personal belief about them at all.
If you can't grasp the idea that atheism itself stakes no claim, or that at least it doesn't have to, that it is only a lack of belief and not itself an affirmed conviction, one way or the other, then you should really do some much-needed self-evaluation. Because you are failing to comprehend the full breadth of scope that atheism entails and misunderstanding something so elementary that even a child could grasp it. And there is probably a flawed motivation behind that.
And since it is so simple, I am drawn to conclude there are certain motivations for people to want to confuse the issue.
I believe certain theists want to believe that atheists are opposed to them specifically, opposed specifically to their beliefs including a direct opposition and denial of their God concept.
Believing that atheists actively oppose the idea of their God, rather than that some simply find it beneath them or inconsequential to their lives, is self-empowering to certain theists. It is an ego boost.
I remember being younger, raised in the Christian Faith, and how many pastors and religious teachers would tell me that christianity tends to make people uncomfortable and uneasy with their own beliefs. This was an arrogant self-possession and self-accreditation, a self-validation, if you will. It stems from a need for personal attention. It stems from a need to be important, to have the world heed you and your beliefs because you demand there is value in them. When, in fact, many others find them completely value-less, so much so even, that they might not even hold a personal belief about them at all.
If you can't grasp the idea that atheism itself stakes no claim, or that at least it doesn't have to, that it is only a lack of belief and not itself an affirmed conviction, one way or the other, then you should really do some much-needed self-evaluation. Because you are failing to comprehend the full breadth of scope that atheism entails and misunderstanding something so elementary that even a child could grasp it. And there is probably a flawed motivation behind that.
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waitasec
Veteran Member
but thats a broad question? if you narrow it down to what the belief in question is about then i will be happy to answer...
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
You really need to sort this out. You go from saying you understand that atheism is a lack of belief to basically saying it's not.
The simple fact is atheism is the lack of belief in God, which can also be accompanied by the belief that God doesn't exist. Many of the atheists here, including me (as I've already told you), hold the belief that God doesn't exist, but we're not representative of all atheists.
So, a simple question: Do you understand that atheism is a lack of belief in God and sometimes also the belief that God doesn't exist?
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
Then you need to be more specific. If out of the context of this forum, you asked someone "What do you believe?", you could get all kinds of answers that would be appropriate to such a broad question. The proper question here would be "What do you believe in concerning God?" or even better "Do you believe in God?". In those cases, answering "I'm an atheist" would be appropriate even if the person only lacks the belief in God.
When phrased that way, I'd probably answer "I'm a humanist."
Orias
Left Hand Path
I do, and I have been agreeing with everyone that has been saying that.
It seems like everyone is trying to complicate everything and argue false points.
I simply stated that atheism is a belief because people go out of their way to defend it. Not only that, atheism is a belief because the word ,belief, describes the atheist's view towards Godly beings.
Sure, it is a lack of certain belief towards certain concepts, but it is a concrete belief the describes it as disbelief or lack of belief in this certain concept.
It's a belief regardless of the flavor, simply because these "coined" concepts were fabricated and reinforced with the idea that it will need to be defended.
If it is not so much as a belief, a world view, or an ontological stance then people wouldn't bother to go out of their way to defend what they believe.