Atheists: does God exist?

[BrightShadow]

No. To ignore, or act as if it's not real is far different than to actively work against it.

You ignored my very next sentence!
I said - "What the typical Atheists don't realize - when you don't have any faith in God - by default you are working against God. All the examples you are setting - are working against God."
Pay attention to the 2nd sentence.
All the examples you are setting for your kids, nieces, nephews etc. could potentially turn them into Atheists as well. So, even though you could be leading an honest and decent lifestyle and not directly hurting anyone but someone encouraged by your lifestyle - could do differently.
You will be somewhat responsible for the chain reaction!

In short - you are working against God. You are promoting a lifestyle regulated by subjective morality and not seeking and maintaining what a potential creator of the universe may have asked of you.

Majority may rule but still can be wrong! It depends which side you are on. So, we need objective morality that is independent of our bias positions. Who can provide that?

If God is out there - not believing he is out there (while leading a good and honest life) - probably still won't help you. That is my opinion.
Tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe - rather than putting a lid on it!

 

[BrightShadow]

What is a typical atheist?

Bull, what god? yours or one of the thousands of other claimed gods?

I don't need a god sitting on my shoulder to tell me what is good, honest, moral.

That's human mortality, not the religious morality stolen from human mortality and modified to exclude those not of your religion.

You comments (while not long) require a long response. You went at multiple angles. I don't have time to respond in detail.
All I have to say is - finding the one true God is not hard. Within one hour of proper research (by process of elimination) you could arrive at just a couple of gods. By further research - you may find the One and True God!
As you said you don't need a god - have you considered that - God doesn't need you either?

 

[ChristineM]

You comments (while not long) require a long response. You went at multiple angles. I don't have time to respond in detail.
All I have to say is - finding the one true God is not hard. Within one hour of proper research (by process of elimination) you could arrive at just a couple of gods. By further research - you may find the One and True God!
As you said you don't need a god - have you considered that - God doesn't need you either?

I responded to your post, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes all those who worshipped there god(s) considered them to be the true god.

I glad you know what your god needs it tells me rather a lot about the source of your god.

And i look forward to your answer to my first question in due course.

 

[McBell]

Think about what you just admitted there!

No idea what you mean by "admitted"
I never denied it in the first place.

You just admitted I am right that (some) Atheists will pray when they are in a tough predicament.

Yes, some atheists will pray when in a bad situation.
So what?

Your reason is - we would remember God in a situation like that because there is nothing to lose but there could be something to gain. So why not?
Great! If that's what it takes the Atheists to remember God - then so be it.
If you can't remember on your happy and jolly days - remember when it is not.

If you want to call that a "win", by all means run with it.

 

[McBell]

You ignored my very next sentence!
I said - "What the typical Atheists don't realize - when you don't have any faith in God - by default you are working against God. All the examples you are setting - are working against God."
Pay attention to the 2nd sentence.
All the examples you are setting for your kids, nieces, nephews etc. could potentially turn them into Atheists as well. So, even though you could be leading an honest and decent lifestyle and not directly hurting anyone but someone encouraged by your lifestyle - could do differently.
You will be somewhat responsible for the chain reaction!

In short - you are working against God. You are promoting a lifestyle regulated by subjective morality and not seeking and maintaining what a potential creator of the universe may have asked of you.

Are you claiming that god believers are to teach their children about god?

What if, and I understand that most theists cannot possibly conceive the possibility, you chose the wrong god and are in effect guilty of all the above?

Seems to me that theists are the ones who should apply pascals wager even more so than atheists.
Or is it your opinion that the One True God prefers those who actively worship, praise, etc a wrong god over one that worships, praises, etc. no god?

I hear tell that god is such a jealous god that he flat out said so in the not cliff notes version ten commandments...

Majority may rule but still can be wrong! It depends which side you are on. So, we need objective morality that is independent of our bias positions. Who can provide

Any one can provide a moral code.
Happens all the time.
Where people make the mistake is thinking their favoured moral code is some how "absolute".

Take the Bible for example.
God orders an awful lot of killing for one of the ten commandments being "though shalt not kill"...

 

[Kfox]

You ignored my very next sentence!
I said - "What the typical Atheists don't realize - when you don't have any faith in God - by default you are working against God. All the examples you are setting - are working against God."
Pay attention to the 2nd sentence.

I didn’t understand what you meant by the 2nd sentence, that’s why I didn’t respond to it.

All the examples you are setting for your kids, nieces, nephews etc. could potentially turn them into Atheists as well. So, even though you could be leading an honest and decent lifestyle and not directly hurting anyone but someone encouraged by your lifestyle - could do differently.
You will be somewhat responsible for the chain reaction!

I believe such a chain reaction to be a good thing because it is based on truth; not falsehood.

In short - you are working against God. You are promoting a lifestyle regulated by subjective morality and not seeking and maintaining what a potential creator of the universe may have asked of you.

*I am no more working against your God than you are working against all the other Gods.

* Morality is subjective; just because your morality is subjective to your God does not mean it is not subjective

* I have no reason to believe the Universe was created

Majority may rule but still can be wrong! It depends which side you are on. So, we need objective morality that is independent of our bias positions. Who can provide that?

Just because you may believe morality comes from your God does not make it any more subjective than me believing it comes from myself and others like me.

If God is out there - not believing he is out there (while leading a good and honest life) - probably still won't help you. That is my opinion.
Tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe - rather than putting a lid on it!

I am simply interested in the truth; I don't put a lid on anything.

 

[Audie]

Perhaps not. But what qualifies you to make that judgement?

An education.

 

[F1fan]

God is known to exist; perhaps not by you, but what you don't know has no bearing on what others know.

You're confusing belief with knowledge. Knowledge has to be fact based and something anyone can acknowledge as true. Belief in any of the many gods are not fact based, nor anything that can be acknowledged as true.

Many believers claim to know their version of God exists, but they never are able to demonstrate it exists, or is known. Look at your post here, you make an extraordinary claim that God is known to exist, but offer zero to verify your claim is true. Believers, like yourself, often treat your belief in a God as mundane. It's as if you are claiming that you own a Dodge Charger. We known Chargers exist, and that some people own them, and it's not implausible that you own one of them. We can accept that. But to claim that you know a God exists is a huge claim, and it is not a mundane claim. If believers claim such knowledhe they had better take it seriously and explain how they have this extraordinary knowledge. I think believers avoid any explanation because they know it's not a true claim, and they are in essence bluffing.

 

[Audie]

You ignored my very next sentence!
I said - "What the typical Atheists don't realize - when you don't have any faith in God - by default you are working against God. All the examples you are setting - are working against God."
Pay attention to the 2nd sentence.
All the examples you are setting for your kids, nieces, nephews etc. could potentially turn them into Atheists as well. So, even though you could be leading an honest and decent lifestyle and not directly hurting anyone but someone encouraged by your lifestyle - could do differently.
You will be somewhat responsible for the chain reaction!

In short - you are working against God. You are promoting a lifestyle regulated by subjective morality and not seeking and maintaining what a potential creator of the universe may have asked of you.

Majority may rule but still can be wrong! It depends which side you are on. So, we need objective morality that is independent of our bias positions. Who can provide that?

If God is out there - not believing he is out there (while leading a good and honest life) - probably still won't help you. That is my opinion.
Tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe - rather than putting a lid on it!

" unleash the desire to believe" is the exact
way to give in to intellectual dishonesty.

It's what every sammer, religious or otherwise
manipulates you into doing.

 

[F1fan]

You ignored my very next sentence!
I said - "What the typical Atheists don't realize - when you don't have any faith in God - by default you are working against God. All the examples you are setting - are working against God."
Pay attention to the 2nd sentence.

But it's not a true sentence, why should anyone treat it as true when there are no Gods known to exist?

All the examples you are setting for your kids, nieces, nephews etc. could potentially turn them into Atheists as well.

Excellent. They will be better off not being obedient ghosts to some social tradition of belief. The rational position to confronting any religious claim is that it isn't true, and where is the evidence.

So, even though you could be leading an honest and decent lifestyle and not directly hurting anyone but someone encouraged by your lifestyle - could do differently.
You will be somewhat responsible for the chain reaction!

Yet there is no evidence that being an atheist is a negative thing. Stats reveal that atheists tend to be more law abiding, so the question is why isn't religion keeping believers more law abiding.

In short - you are working against God.

This is a claim, where is the evidence? Why make this assumption at all if you have no evdience. Or do you mean being an atheists is in opposition to the agendas of many religious people and organizations? Religions are not a God. The agendas of religious people are not froma God unless you can demonstrate the God exists, and that is has its own agenda.

You are promoting a lifestyle regulated by subjective morality and not seeking and maintaining what a potential creator of the universe may have asked of you.

All morality is subjective, including the many different religions that have their own moral code. Look at how Christians tortured and executed some 30,000 peovle for witchcraft in the 17th century. That would be nearly 500,000 people today if adjusted for population. Look how Christians and Muslims fought each other during the Crusades. Look at how protestants and Catholics fought each other in Ireland during the Troubles. Look at how Catholics and Lutherans committed the Holocaust, which is the biggest crime against humanity in history. Look at how Muslim extremists have committed suicide bombing against anyone for the sake of God's truth. So if you want to talk lifestyle as if there is a clean line of moral and immoral it will be a losing case for theists.

Majority may rule but still can be wrong! It depends which side you are on. So, we need objective morality that is independent of our bias positions. Who can provide that?

What advantage does a believer have where it comes to morality> Where is the clear and independent thinking? As we see most believers are just obedient ghosts who follow whatever mortal leadership they have been taught to commit to.

If God is out there -

IF??? So now you are being honest in that a God isn't known to exist? Then this invalidates all your comments that refer to a God as if it's real, has authority, and is the basis of morality. What you have left is the many sects of religion that vary in what they consider moral and true. Why can't they agree if they all have the "Truth"?

not believing he is out there (while leading a good and honest life) - probably still won't help you. That is my opinion.
Tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe - rather than putting a lid on it!

Critical thinking skill, and being one's own moral agent, is what should be taught to children, not any of the many improbable religious claims.

 

[RestlessSoul]

You're confusing belief with knowledge. Knowledge has to be fact based and something anyone can acknowledge as true. Belief in any of the many gods are not fact based, nor anything that can be acknowledged as true.

Many believers claim to know their version of God exists, but they never are able to demonstrate it exists, or is known. Look at your post here, you make an extraordinary claim that God is known to exist, but offer zero to verify your claim is true. Believers, like yourself, often treat your belief in a God as mundane. It's as if you are claiming that you own a Dodge Charger. We known Chargers exist, and that some people own them, and it's not implausible that you own one of them. We can accept that. But to claim that you know a God exists is a huge claim, and it is not a mundane claim. If believers claim such knowledhe they had better take it seriously and explain how they have this extraordinary knowledge. I think believers avoid any explanation because they know it's not a true claim, and they are in essence bluffing.

When religious people talk about knowledge of God, they generally mean knowledge in the sense of familiarity with a person, place or thing, rather than awareness of facts pertaining to it

 

[F1fan]

When religious people talk about knowledge of God, they generally mean knowledge in the sense of familiarity with a person, place or thing, rather than awareness of facts.

It's a deceptive use of language. This clears up nothing. This illustrates the self-deception that is learned by religion as it progresses into the age of reason. Religious concepts are less plausible as actual knowledge increased, and this put believers in a "no man's land" of how to manage these ideas. What are believers familiar with? The dogma they were exposed to, not any actual gods. But they treat the dogma, the ideas of God as if these ideas are the God itself.

If theists are going to believe they have an ideal approach to live their lives I suggest they stop being so deceptive and not cling to ideas in a literalist interpretation. It only causes them problems. God as a symbol can work. God as an actual thing? Nothing but trouble.

 

[RestlessSoul]

It's a deceptive use of language. This clears up nothing. This illustrates the self-deception that is learned by religion as it progresses into the age of reason. Religious concepts are less plausible as actual knowledge increased, and this put believers in a "no man's land" of how to manage these ideas. What are believers familiar with? The dogma they were exposed to, not any actual gods. But they treat the dogma, the ideas of God as if these ideas are the God itself.

If theists are going to believe they have an ideal approach to live their lives I suggest they stop being so deceptive and not cling to ideas in a literalist interpretation. It only causes them problems. God as a symbol can work. God as an actual thing? Nothing but trouble.

Yes, it can be problematic when we confuse our God Concepts, which are generally both personal and cultural, with the reality of God which is, most cultures agree, a mystery beyond all human understanding.

 

[BrightShadow]

Yes, some atheists will pray when in a bad situation.

Probably without realizing you keep making my points. Here you are admitting that some Atheists could be hypocrites.
In other words - you seem to be announcing - it is okay to be a hypocrite!

So, by announcing that it is okay to be hypocrite - yet you made another point as well! You proved that - "objective morality" is indeed required otherwise we would be hypocrites at times and as needed!
That shows why Atheists and bias go hand in hand! Only the creator can provide objective morality!

Or is it your opinion that the One True God prefers those who actively worship, praise, etc a wrong god over one that worships, praises, etc. no god?

If you make an effort to seek God then you get some points - however in the process if you find the "One and True" God then you scored the jackpot. On the other hand, if you refrain from looking in the first place then you are preordaining your landing spot in God's kingdom and it is not a good spot!
So, yes! Believing in One God is crucial. Believing in multiple gods or no god could be equally unacceptable by God. We will find out!

Any one can provide a moral code.
Happens all the time.
Where people make the mistake is thinking their favoured moral code is some how "absolute".

Have you tried looking for the truth? "The truth stands out clearly from falsehood" [Quran 2-256]. "When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood - by its nature is bound to perish" - [paraphrased Quran 17:81]
So, tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe (that is the first step)- then seek and find the truth (before you run out of time).

Take the Bible for example.
God orders an awful lot of killing for one of the ten commandments being "though shalt not kill"...

Bible has many truth but it is mixed with lies. Innovations and fabrications snuck into it. Find another version (e.g. Quran) that would be more accurate IMO. However interpretations can vary and words could be taken out of context. To understand it in depth and properly - set fire to your doubts at the first sign you realize it could be the truth!

 

[YellowFeather]

Atheists, rely on sight so they do not believe in God because they cannot see God. Those who believe in God have Faith in God. Even though we cannot see God our Faith gives us the power to believe in God and God gives us his love and answers our prayers because our Faith is true. Faith is the power to believing and obeying God. If you do not have Faith you do not know God. 1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of FAITH. lay hold on eternal life, and has professed a good profession before many witness. Hebrews 11:6 But without Faith it is impossible to please God; for he that comes to God must believe that he is God, and he is a rewarder of them that seek him.

 

[BrightShadow]

" unleash the desire to believe" is the exact
way to give in to intellectual dishonesty.

It's what every sammer, religious or otherwise
manipulates you into doing.

No one is telling you to forgo your intelligence. Did I point out what to believe? I said open your heart to "believe" - and then seek. Don't be stuck on "Noah and flood" and then disregard everything else. Information was given to ancient folks in a need to know basis and given in a way to match the level of their perception. Try to perceive the deeper spiritual context rather than concentrating on literal factual meanings. If you can't find a 2 thousand years or a 14 hundred years old lens - seek help from people who have figured out how to adjust their modern lenses to see the truth.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind"- Einstein
"Indeed, the worst of living creatures in sight of Allah are the deaf and dumb who do not use reason."- [Quran 8:22]

All information is at your finger tips. Finding the truth is your job! You have been warned!

 

[BrightShadow]

But it's not a true sentence, why should anyone treat it as true when there are no Gods known to exist?

Excellent. They will be better off not being obedient ghosts to some social tradition of belief. The rational position to confronting any religious claim is that it isn't true, and where is the evidence.

Yet there is no evidence that being an atheist is a negative thing. Stats reveal that atheists tend to be more law abiding, so the question is why isn't religion keeping believers more law abiding.

This is a claim, where is the evidence? Why make this assumption at all if you have no evdience. Or do you mean being an atheists is in opposition to the agendas of many religious people and organizations? Religions are not a God. The agendas of religious people are not froma God unless you can demonstrate the God exists, and that is has its own agenda.

All morality is subjective, including the many different religions that have their own moral code. Look at how Christians tortured and executed some 30,000 peovle for witchcraft in the 17th century. That would be nearly 500,000 people today if adjusted for population. Look how Christians and Muslims fought each other during the Crusades. Look at how protestants and Catholics fought each other in Ireland during the Troubles. Look at how Catholics and Lutherans committed the Holocaust, which is the biggest crime against humanity in history. Look at how Muslim extremists have committed suicide bombing against anyone for the sake of God's truth. So if you want to talk lifestyle as if there is a clean line of moral and immoral it will be a losing case for theists.

What advantage does a believer have where it comes to morality> Where is the clear and independent thinking? As we see most believers are just obedient ghosts who follow whatever mortal leadership they have been taught to commit to.

IF??? So now you are being honest in that a God isn't known to exist? Then this invalidates all your comments that refer to a God as if it's real, has authority, and is the basis of morality. What you have left is the many sects of religion that vary in what they consider moral and true. Why can't they agree if they all have the "Truth"?

Critical thinking skill, and being one's own moral agent, is what should be taught to children, not any of the many improbable religious claims.

Not responding to all your comments.
Fruitless!

All I have to say - if your begin with a wrong premise - you will end up with a wrong conclusion.

If not believing in the fact that there is a God makes sense to you then that is your prerogative. Stick with that notion if you like. Whatever floats your boat and wherever your boat takes you!

However, if the sole purpose of a creator is to see what the creations do (whether they believe or not - whether they follow guidelines laid out by him or not) without any empirical evidence of his existence - then you are failing that test (if you don't believe).

There is nothing wrong in all that you wrote via the eye of an Atheist. But an Atheist is not the one who will be judging you!

If there is not even a tiny bone left in your body telling you there could be a God out there then my post was not meant for you. You have (then) successfully sealed your inner inclination to discover God.

Only thing I can tell you - when you judge a religion - don't go by its practitioners' behavior or the history of its followers (what war they fought and who was right and who was wrong) - BUT go by its primary doctrine!

Truth is given in a need to know basis. Entire truth (picture) is not given. It was not necessary to provide all information to pass the test.

 

[Whateverist]

Yes, it can be problematic when we confuse our God Concepts, which are generally both personal and cultural, with the reality of God which is, most cultures agree, a mystery beyond all human understanding.

And certainly beyond the powers of language. Last night I reread these words:

And the word God is obfuscated and overlaid with so many unhelpful accretions in the West that it is not surprising that people recoil from this idol. It's not just that, obviously, God is not some old man sitting on a cloud, but that very much else that is often believed, or any rate assumed by atheists to be believed by theists, badly gets in the way of an understanding.​

​

Here is the dilemma, and why I speak of an un-word: if we have no word, something at the core of existence disappears from our shared world of awareness; yet if we have a word, we will come to imagine that we have grasped the nature of the divine, pinned it down and delimited it, even though by the very nature of the divine this is something that can never be achieved.​

​

from p1853 of The Matter With Things by Iain McGilchrist​

 

[Trailblazer]

People claim that God is known to exist. There is no reason to find them credible.

I don't think that anyone should 'claim to know' that God exists because that claim could never be proven...
However a person can say "I know" that God exists, which is just a personal conviction.

 

[McBell]

Probably without realizing you keep making my points. Here you are admitting that some Atheists could be hypocrites.
In other words - you seem to be announcing - it is okay to be a hypocrite!

Everyone is a hypocrite, you , me, and every one else to some degree or another.
I have never claimed otherwise.
Nor do I have a huge problem with it.
You n the other hand seem to be all manner of obsesses with it.
Wonder why...

So, by announcing that it is okay to be hypocrite - yet you made another point as well! You proved that - "objective morality" is indeed required otherwise we would be hypocrites at times and as needed!

We ARE all hypocrites to some degree.
Again, what your problem is with is beyond me.

That shows why Atheists and bias go hand in hand!

No idea what this is supposed to mean.

Only the creator can provide objective morality!

There is no objective morality outside the individual.
And even then it is rare.

If you make an effort to seek God then you get some points - however in the process if you find the "One and True" God then you scored the jackpot. On the other hand, if you refrain from looking in the first place then you are preordaining your landing spot in God's kingdom and it is not a good spot!
So, yes! Believing in One God is crucial. Believing in multiple gods or no god could be equally unacceptable by God. We will find out!
Have you tried looking for the truth? "The truth stands out clearly from falsehood" [Quran 2-256]. "When truth is hurled against falsehood, falsehood perishes, for falsehood - by its nature is bound to perish" - [paraphrased Quran 17:81]
So, tap into your inner inclination and unleash the desire to believe (that is the first step)- then seek and find the truth (before you run out of time).
Bible has many truth but it is mixed with lies. Innovations and fabrications snuck into it. Find another version (e.g. Quran) that would be more accurate IMO. However interpretations can vary and words could be taken out of context. To understand it in depth and properly - set fire to your doubts at the first sign you realize it could be the truth!

One, I am not interested in sermons.
Two, sermons are against forum rules.