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Atheists:what does a book gotta have to prove its God's

Zeno

Member
Actually, a two thousand year old DVD would be a lot more impressive, even if the content were as error-riddled and nonsensical as the average sacred text. :)

Yeah, but carbon dating is merely a myth, so we'd never actually know how old the DVD really is. :help:
 

dorsk188

One-Eyed in Blindsville
Lots of other creatures repeat: If a god creates humans, he is not worthy of my praise. If a god exists that can put a stop to humans but does not, he is not worthy of my praise.

A perfectly valid point. If I was an organism being affected by humans (particularly in the case of possible extinction), I would be an atheistic one.

My point was that abrahamic religions tend to believe that the world was made with humans in mind. By that same token, I would have trouble believing that a deity that would allow humans to damage his creation the way we do really cares about it. Considering the vast emotional intelligence we are finding in chimps, dolphins, and other animals, I would consider the suffering of all living things an indictment on the idea of an all-loving god, as well.
 

~Amin~

God is the King

[/COLOR]
. All of them (at least 20) ignored the homeless guy, sleeping in the corner. The guy could obviously use a good meal and a new pair of pants (and a left shoe), but he was invisible to them. At the very least, I would expect a god to tend to that poor fella first..
In the Abrahamic faith we are required to give a certain amount of our
wealth to the poor and needy, if all mankind were obedient to God then not just
that man, but NO one would be in this situation...... just curious you seem like a
caring person to you give to the poor and needy?

[/COLOR]
But, I, like always, keep my mind open.)

Thats a bessing you have.
[/COLOR]
I will believe for a year, and after that year, if I have not seen any evidence, I will cease to believe...

I would as well.

[/COLOR]
The attacks on Sept. 11th were completely unnecessary. Many died and were injured. Many became sick. Many lost their loved ones. There was no need. If god created a NEED for that, in some great plan we cannot understand, than he does not deserve my praise (and I would argue, yours either)..

This is a proof of God's existence , whoever did that was obedient to the
devil, and following the evil ones, instead of the prophets.

[/COLOR]
Birth defects, childhood diseases, such as cancer. Even something as specific as a Filarial Worm (a parasite transmitted by mosquitoes that can cause leprosy and elephantiasis) or the Guinea Worm (for more info, Wiki it.).
It seems that wiki is your revelation, you rley on it the way you should
only rely on God,
would you like to read my story???? the other day i was watching a prison
show and there was a birth defect, you wanna know WHY???? coz the mother was
a cocaine addict, and people get some cases of cancer due to smoking, and
nuclear tests," Corruption has appeared due to the hands of man" Qur'an.
[/COLOR]
I repeat: If a god creates Guinea Worms, he is not worthy of my praise. If a god exists that can put a stop to Guinea Worms but does not, he is not worthy of my praise.

As for other diseases they could be of 1 of 2 reasons, the first is lack of education,
the second is, other then enjoying the beauties in this short world, we are also
being egzamined.

I respect your view, but as for me, i will always praise God coz He is my Lord and i
am His sevant.
 

~Amin~

God is the King

[/COLOR]
. All of them (at least 20) ignored the homeless guy, sleeping in the corner. The guy could obviously use a good meal and a new pair of pants (and a left shoe), but he was invisible to them. At the very least, I would expect a god to tend to that poor fella first..
In the Abrahamic faith we are required to give a certain amount of our
wealth to the poor and needy, if all mankind were obedient to God then not just
that man, but NO one would be in this situation...... just curious you seem like a
caring person to you give to the poor and needy?

[/COLOR]
But, I, like always, keep my mind open.)

That's a blessing you have.
[/COLOR]
I will believe for a year, and after that year, if I have not seen any evidence, I will cease to believe...

I would as well.

[/COLOR]
The attacks on Sept. 11th were completely unnecessary. Many died and were injured. Many became sick. Many lost their loved ones. There was no need. If god created a NEED for that, in some great plan we cannot understand, than he does not deserve my praise (and I would argue, yours either)..

This is a proof of God's existence , whoever did that was obedient to the
devil, and following the evil ones, instead of the prophets.

[/COLOR]
Birth defects, childhood diseases, such as cancer. Even something as specific as a Filarial Worm (a parasite transmitted by mosquitoes that can cause leprosy and elephantiasis) or the Guinea Worm (for more info, Wiki it.).
It seems that wiki is your revelation, you rely on it the way you should
only rely on God,
would you like to read my story???? the other day i was watching a prison
show and there was a birth defect, you wanna know WHY???? coz the mother was
a cocaine addict, and people get some cases of cancer due to smoking, and
nuclear tests," Corruption has appeared due to the hands of man" Qur'an.
[/COLOR]
I repeat: If a god creates Guinea Worms, he is not worthy of my praise. If a god exists that can put a stop to Guinea Worms but does not, he is not worthy of my praise.

As for other diseases they could be of 1 of 2 reasons, the first is lack of education,
the second is, other then enjoying the beauties in this short world, we are also
being examined.

I respect your view, but as for me, i will always praise God coz He is my Lord and i
am His servant.
 

dorsk188

One-Eyed in Blindsville
In the Abrahamic faith we are required to give a certain amount of our
wealth to the poor and needy...

I'll give credit to some abrahamic faiths, (islam in particular) for placing the needs of poor in some form of priority.

This is a proof of God's existence , whoever did that was obedient to the
devil, and following the evil ones, instead of the prophets.

The very idea that people doing evil things is proof that god exists is ridiculous. Why would an all-loving, all-powerful god allow the devil or any evil being to do harm to innocents?

It seems that wiki is your revelation, you rely on it the way you should
only rely on God...

Wikipedia on Wikipedia:
"Co-founder Jimmy Wales stresses that encyclopedias of any type are not usually appropriate as primary sources, and should not be relied upon as authoritative."

If religious texts offered a sentence even close to this, I might take them seriously. But they don't. Instead, they always claim they are the 100% authority. I have done research on Guinea Worms from a variety of sources. I have seen the footage of a worm being pulled out of a person's leg, and watching them scream as the parasite is pulled through the person's connective tissue. I think my Wiki Revelation is verified.

I would like to think people hold their religion to a higher standard than I hold an internet encyclopedia, but...

would you like to read my story???? the other day i was watching a prison
show and there was a birth defect, you wanna know WHY???? coz the mother was a cocaine addict, and people get some cases of cancer due to smoking, and nuclear tests," Corruption has appeared due to the hands of man" Qur'an.

From what I understand, only about 15% of birth defects are traced to a known environmental cause, such as drugs or abuse. About 50% (or so) are from unknown causes. 20% or so are from genetic abnormalities and mutations that the mother could not affect. Disorders, like Down Syndrom, just happen sometimes. Random mutation, as well as inherited disorders, are not here because we have caused them. (But I think we can all agree that humans tend to **** up royally in just about every way. I didn't need a sacred text to know that, though. Just eyes.)

As for other diseases they could be of 1 of 2 reasons, the first is lack of education,
the second is, other then enjoying the beauties in this short world, we are also being examined.

I don't quite understand this. Are you saying:

1. People are becoming infected by terrible illnesses because they just don't know any better. In which case, most places in the world are still subject to diseases because they lack the technology to avoid them. (Such as the ability to drill deep wells for water or mosquito nets.) This isn't education, though. No one can avoid some diseases, no matter how educated you are, if you don't have the means (many of which are recently invented).

2. People are being tested by god... I found the story of Job to be reason enough to reject the god of abrahamic religions.

I hope I misunderstood that second point. If I create something, and I claim to love it, I don't torture it. If I do, there is something wrong with me.
 

~Amin~

God is the King
I'll give credit to some abrahamic faiths, (islam in particular) for placing the needs of poor in some form of priority.

The very idea that people doing evil things is proof that god exists is ridiculous.
I think it makes a lot of sense coz, we believe in the devil tricking people
in following him, and as such, every evil besides some diseases, are a result of
our obedience to him(satan).
Is there another reasonable way of explaining the evil?
Why would an all-loving, all-powerful god allow the devil or any evil being to do harm to innocents?
Firstly the idea of God being All-Loving is a christian concept,
in Islam we also believe God is All-Loving, but we must also except ALL
His other attributes such as the All Just-One, the All Wise-One, the One who
takes people to ACCOUNT for there EVIL, SO if someone raped a woman
or a child, then God may INFLICT him with a DISEASE for punishment
for his filthy evil act, and this shows Gods Love for the victim, and justice
for the criminal.
god allow the devil or any evil being to do harm to innocents?

God does NOT allow the devil TO DO HARM to innocent, WWEEEE do
the HHAARRMMM when we obey satan, satan can only suggest evil thoughts
he does NNOOTT have power to make any one DDOO evil.
If the devil was given power to MAKE us do evil then you would be RIGHT.

I hope this made sense to you its so basic.
 

dorsk188

One-Eyed in Blindsville
I think it makes a lot of sense coz, we believe in the devil tricking peoplein following him, and as such, every evil besides some diseases, are a result of our obedience to him(satan).

Honestly, you've completely lost me with this... But let me throw out some ideas anyway.
  1. The devil tricking people into doing evil is not evidence that there is a god. To begin with, there is no more evidence that there is a devil than there is a god, so one cannot be evidence of another. It is just as likely that there is neither god nor a devil, or there is only one being acting as both, or there are many beings. You are simply seeing the phenomenon (evil things) through your established belief (devil).
  2. Any time you say that your theory explains "every _____ besides _____...", it is a signal that your theory does not actually explain anything. Ex. "Getting hit by a car is painless, except in cases where you survive." You admit that some evils cannot be explained by the influence of the devil, but you postulate that the others can...based on what evidence?
  3. Ultimately, you've got a very circular belief system here. Most of the "why" questions have been answered over the years to explain apparent inconsistancy. Just because you can rationalize the world through your beliefs does not mean that your belief is right or consistant, just that it is consistant enough for you.
Is there another reasonable way of explaining the evil?

Yep. People, like many social animals, have evolved a ideal of fairness. In simple terms, if a person gets a reward they do not deserve or is punished for no reason, the system is not fair. This combined with a very common biological motive to preserve your own genes and those of your relatives (common to many, if not most, animals) to form an idea of "justice", the lack of which is "evil".

Regardless of how we have come to have the concept of evil, you asked how I would explain it. Whenever an event occurs, the person observing the event naturally evaluates it. If it causes us to see it as evil, then it is evil. If not, then it is not. We practice moral relativism, even if we don't like to think so. Race-based slavery is evil... to us. At the time, it was a questionable practice at most. At the time of the Holocaust, most in America were emotionally unaffected and some were even in approval. Essentially: Evil exists because we label it so.

Also, there are dozens of other explanations from different religions and philosophies, so this is not an either-or.

Firstly the idea of God being All-Loving is a christian concept,
in Islam we also believe God is All-Loving, but we must also except ALL His other attributes such as the All Just-One, the All Wise-One, the One who takes people to ACCOUNT for there EVIL

Actually, christians agree with all of this. I simply use the term all-loving because it is the most obviously impossible feature of a god. No matter how just, he must still be all-loving, correct?

SO if someone raped a woman
or a child, then God may INFLICT him with a DISEASE for punishment for his filthy evil act, and this shows Gods Love for the victim, and justice for the criminal.

Honestly, I find this to be amazing. We already agreed that disease is not evidence of punishment of evil doing. You said so yourself above, and be dropping the conversation on what indigenous people did to DESERVE the Guinea Worm. SIC. Silence implies consent (or in this case concession). Besides, no one would claim that all evil people get diseases. In fact, I'll bet they get them at the same rate as good people. (Relegating that punishment to the afterlife in a matter of faith, so I won't argue with you on it, but please stop insinuating that disease is something people deserve.) By this logic, European Caucasians are "better" people because approx. 10% of them are immune to HIV.

God does NOT allow the devil TO DO HARM to innocent, WWEEEE do the HHAARRMMM when we obey satan, satan can only suggest evil thoughts he does NNOOTT have power to make any one DDOO evil. If the devil was given power to MAKE us do evil then you would be RIGHT.

You're right. There is a distinction. I do apologize. I would argue, though, that by allowing the devil to influence us at all, though, god is still allowing us to be harmed. He could banish the devil to a region of reality that cannot interact with Earth, yes? If your neighbor taunts your dog enough that the dog chokes on his chain, the neighbor is still responsible.

Also, this still does not explain god allowing people to harm innocent people. If I had the power to stop my creations, whom I love, from destroying each other, I would. Once again, god fails my "holier than me" test. If god is not holier than me, than he is not god.

I hope this made sense to you its so basic.

In reference to how powerful the devil actually is, I apologize again. In reference to your posts and likely your entire worldview... well... I do my best... :)
 

~Amin~

God is the King
You admit that some evils cannot be explained by the influence of the devil, but you postulate that the others can...based on what evidence?
were did i say that?
Just because you can rationalize the world through your beliefs does not mean that your belief is right or consistant, just that it is consistant enough for you.
Are you saaying that just cause it makes sense it doesnt make it correct?
Yep. People, like many social animals, have evolved a ideal of fairness. In simple terms, if a person gets a reward they do not deserve or is punished for no reason, the system is not fair.
Wat if there was e reason for the punishment?
Regardless of how we have come to have the concept of evil, you asked how I would explain it. Whenever an event occurs, the person observing the event naturally evaluates it. If it causes us to see it as evil, then it is evil. If not, then it is not. Essentially: Evil exists because we label it so.
In other words when a women gets raped or any other evil, it not realy bad but we just think it is or imagining it?
Actually, christians agree with all of this. I simply use the term all-loving because it is the most obviously impossible feature of a god..

You are prcieving of God in a way He ISNT, and as a result you get into problem, you should do the TOTAL opposite and understand Him the way He
reveals Himself then these questions will be answered themselves.
No matter how just, he must still be all-loving, correct?.

Yes but not to EVERYONE.
We already agreed that disease is not evidence of punishment of evil doing. You said so yourself above.

Can you show me were?
Besides, no one would claim that all evil people get diseases. In fact, I'll bet they get them at the same rate as good people.

This is very True.
By this logic, European Caucasians are "better" people because approx. 10% of them are immune to HIV.

Not realy God can take them to account in other ways diseases is just one.
though, that by allowing the devil to influence us at all, though, god is still allowing us to be harmed.
The devil cant do ANYTHING to those who rely on GOD.
He could banish the devil to a region of reality that cannot interact with Earth, yes?.

Off course.
If your neighbor taunts your dog enough that the dog chokes on his chain, the neighbor is still responsible.

Sorry i dont think this is a relative parable how do we have Chains?
Also, this still does not explain god allowing people to harm innocent people.
But how do you know that the person you look at is innocent?
maybe they did
something earlier or latter in there life Coz God knows the future.
If I had the power to stop my creations, whom I love, from destroying each other, I would. Once again, god fails my "holier than me" test. If god is not holier than me, than he is not god.
If you knew what God knew you wouldnt.


 

dorsk188

One-Eyed in Blindsville
were did i say that?
every evil besides some diseases, are a result of our obedience to him
Already you are admitting that evils and suffering are not entirely explained by devillish action. I'll bet if we explored this topic in depth, there would be examples of all types of evils that are not the result of the devil or human evil. Hurricanes? Tsunamis? They kill thousands based on geographic location, not their personal beliefs or actions.

I can explain every NY Yankees victory. Every time the Dow Jones Industrial Average rises the day before a game, the Yankees will win... besides the ones they don't... The "besides" means I should reevaluate my hypothesis.

Are you saaying that just cause it makes sense it doesnt make it correct?
I would prefer to use the term "consistant", but yes, that is my point.

Wat if there was e reason for the punishment?
Biologically, then the system lacks unfairness (or evil) and is just. But, if you are trying to extend this to the real world, I would again remind you that we have already agreed that some diseases cannot be explained as influence from the devil or punishment from god.

In other words when a women gets raped or any other evil, it not realy bad but we just think it is or imagining it?
Unfortunately, for most of recorded history, rape was considered to be just fine (as long as the husband was the one doing the raping). It is our reaction to something that determines if it is evil or just. Historically, the mainstream view of evil is the one that matters at the time. Fortunately, we seem to be raising our standards of what is good since the Enlightenment and I hope we will continue to do so.

You are prcieving of God in a way He ISNT, and as a result you get into problem, you should do the TOTAL opposite and understand Him the way He
reveals Himself then these questions will be answered themselves.
So... I shouldn't have expectations of god's behavior based on my own ideals? Rather, I should look at his actions and simply trust that he truly is loving and truly is good, even if the evidence is contradictory? Rationalize based on previously accepted beliefs? No, thank you. I am perfectly happy expecting god to live up to the standards that my feeble human conscience sets. As his creation, how could really I be dissappointed in his actions? Well, if he does exist, then I am. If he does not exist, then I don't hold him responsible. :)

Yes but not to EVERYONE.
How can he be ALL-LOVING to only a select few?

Can you show me were?
Your very next sentence, bub. :)

This is very True.
You agreed that evil people are just as healthy as good. 25% of people who die in the USA die from cancer. Those who are evil and have cancer are being punished, but the good people who have cancer are just unlucky? When you have no evidence that disease is actually punishment (especially in light of their equal occurrance in good and evil people), how can you really believe that disease is punishment? My mind is truly boggled here.

Not realy God can take them to account in other ways diseases is just one.
You're right. European Caucasians seem to be having a really rough time lately. :sarcastic

The devil cant do ANYTHING to those who rely on GOD.
So believers in god are completely protected from influence by the devil? Do you really believe that islamic terrorists somehow don't believe in god? Or christian fundementalist terrorists? They BELIEVE, no matter how hard you will try to deny that their belief is real, but they do evil things, and we've established that evil actions are done because of influence by the devil.

This is why I prefer to say your beliefs are "consistent enough for you" because this is enough right here to think that your philosophy of evil is flawed. Not just from an outside viewpoint, but internally inconsistent, as well. Fortunately for you, your beliefs assure you that they are completely consistent, so you won't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

Off course.
Yet, he doesn't. Any responsible deity would take reasonable precautions to protect his creations from suffering, if he really wanted to. A single religious faith (one of thousands) is not really protection. Especially if it still does not protect those who follow it (islamic terrorists).

Sorry i dont think this is a relative parable how do we have Chains?
Maybe an analogy was a bad idea, but I will try to briefly explain it. A common way to describe christian understanding of the devil is this: Even though the devil cannot attack god outright, he will attack gods creations. Similar to a neighbor who kicks your dog when you're not around. This was an extension of that idea. A dog, chained in a yard, represents humans. The devil can taunt us and influence us so that we commit suicide or do harm to others. That influence is still the cause of the evil, and god still allows the devil to have that power.

I would banish a being to a realm where such influence could not be made and allow my creations to exercise true free will. As it is, god allows the devil to act as a boogie man. I would even argue that the two behave similarly to equals, even partners. (But that's my view of theological thought, and not really here nor there.)

maybe they did
something earlier or latter in there life Coz God knows the future.
An infant who dies in a tsunami seems to defy this logic. Moreover, if you can be punished before your actions, where do you account for free will? And what is the need for punishment, in this case? Once again, if I were god, I would not punish in advance. I would attempt to reform, cure, prevent. What purpose is this punishment? I would argue, only sadism explains it. (We could have entire discussions about the Adam and Eve myth and how there was no true choice, and god's reaction was purely sadistic, but that's neither here nor there, either.)

If you knew what God knew you wouldnt.
You hope. You believe. You trust. Because the alternative is that either god is not what you think he is, or he doesn't exist at all. Since neither of those are acceptable to you, you blindly hope that there is an explanation for it all. (From my perspective.)


Quick Note: I don't like to use islamic terrorists as examples when talking about religion, but I felt it was relevant here. I do not believe they are representative of the muslim faith, but they are an example of it. By and large, islam is no worse than any other faith in terms of morality or violence.
 

~Amin~

God is the King
Wow i LOVE this, get ready for the answers, i hope your heart
beats when you see my name online, i get so excited with this
like a little kid in a TOY store:rainbow1: ,sorry little busy at this stage.
Take care dork188.
 

Marzipan

New Member
I think gods write ALL the books. Unfortunately the books that make a really big deal out of having been written by gods are often boring and self-contradictory, seeming to have been written by psychopathic gods.

The best writing of the gods is humble, inconspicuous, uplifting, consistent and penetrating.

My friends who think God's literary ouvre was a one-off seem to me to have sadly limited resources for heavenly communion.
 

~Amin~

God is the King
I'll bet if we explored this topic in depth, there would be examples of all types of evils that are not the result of the devil or human evil. Hurricanes? Tsunamis? They kill thousands based on geographic location, not their personal beliefs or actions.
Sorry I'm little late....but there's so much to be said, if Ive missed
something by the end of my quote please outline it, Ive cut some of your
statements cause there's so much, but i promise i can answer them, with the
support of God,
1. The Hurricanes and so on could basically be so we can wake up to our selves
and repent, coz we've be too intoxicated by materialism.
As for the death through these, i think your complaining that we shouldn't die,
if we die in a tornado or in our bed, its a decree excepted by believers and atheists.
2. And this shows to me proof of paradise eternal dwelling, coz nobody wants to die
everyone wants to live forever, but that is only in the next life.
I would prefer to use the term "consistant", but yes, that is my point.
I find this extremely strange, coz YOUR asking me why if theres
a God there evil, at the same time you say theres REALY no such thing as evil.
So... I shouldn't have expectations of god's behavior based on my own ideals? Rather, I should look at his actions and simply trust that he truly is loving and truly is good, even if the evidence is contradictory?
No all im saying is you CANT make up to yourself who God Is, then go against that
false concept with what you FEEL is right or wrong, as you said, your definition
can be incorrect, and therefor it sounds contradictory to you.
I am perfectly happy expecting god to live up to the standards that my feeble human conscience sets.
Don't you believe this feeble little being can be wrong?
How can he be ALL-LOVING to only a select few?
Simple how can God Love someone who through there own free will,
choose to harm His Beautiful creation?do you have any kids, this may sound
out of the context but depending on your answer, i could respond in a way
that makes more sense, if that didn't.
You agreed that evil people are just as healthy as good. 25% of people who die in the USA die from cancer. Those who are evil and have cancer are being punished, but the good people who have cancer are just unlucky? When you have no evidence that disease is actually punishment (especially in light of their equal occurrance in good and evil people), how can you really believe that disease is punishment? My mind is truly boggled here.
please summarize this statement.
You're right. European Caucasians seem to be having a really rough time lately. :sarcastic
Thanks for your honesty.:shout
So believers in god are completely protected from influence by the devil? Do you really believe that islamic terrorists somehow don't believe in god? Or christian fundementalist terrorists? They BELIEVE, no matter how hard you will try to deny that their belief is real, but they do evil things, and we've established that evil actions are done because of influence by the devil.
God says "satan has no effect on those who place there trust in God"
you cannot hold all BELIVERS on the same level, besides i think that sep 11
was an inside job.
Fortunately for you, your beliefs assure you that they are completely consistent, so you won't have to deal with the cognitive dissonance.
I'm more then happy to deal with all of them, after all i wanna do the
will of God, which is the BEST feeling trust me.
Yet, he doesn't. Any responsible deity would take reasonable precautions to protect his creations from suffering, if he really wanted to.
He does, did you know the Ozone Layer is a cause through which God protects
us from harmful rays gases etc?
That influence is still the cause of the evil, and god still allows the devil to have that power.
Like i said there's no power over our physical beings he just makes
suggestions, I TELL you what i gonna with God's permission answer in length on
this issue alone in another post, coz it seems you a little confused on this point.
I would banish a being to a realm where such influence could not be made and allow my creations to exercise true free will. As it is, god allows the devil to act as a boogie man. I would even argue that the two behave similarly to equals, even partners. (But that's my view of theological thought, and not really here nor there.)
Cause of you I'm gonna start a new thread regarding this.
An infant who dies in a tsunami seems to defy this logic. Moreover, if you can be punished before your actions, where do you account for free will? And what is the need for punishment, in this case?
I believe theses infants God removes there souls before physical event so they
don't feel anything and go straight to heaven, I don't see how you think this doesn't ,
or takes away our free will. You still have your free will its coz God Knows your evil choice in the future.
(We could have entire discussions about the Adam and Eve myth and how there was no true choice, and god's reaction was purely sadistic, but that's neither here nor there, either.)
I would LOVE for you to start it.:)
Please coz you got such GREAT arguments make your posts shorter,
that way we can get in greater depth, as you suggested.
 

McBell

Unbound
Do you love every human being?
How does this even remotely answer the question?
Fact is, it doesn't.

In fact you seem to be putting limits upon your own deity.
If your deity is in fact all powerful, your question is absolutely irrelevant.
 
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