Thief
Rogue Theologian
Ah yes...back to the nonbelievers....
I hope for their sake, a good conduct is a saving grace.
but that constant denial might earn a fierce slap in the face!
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Atheists: What if?
- Thread starter savagewind
- Start date
Ah yes...back to the nonbelievers....
I hope for their sake, a good conduct is a saving grace.
but that constant denial might earn a fierce slap in the face!
Most believers in The One God believe God is wisdom's zenith. "Wisdom is proved righteous by it's works." So if the work of wisdom does not get done there won't be proof of God's wisdom. Proof is after the fact, not before.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
That would make God rather slap-happy wouldn't it?
If there is a God/Gods, - why would He/She/It slap people for common sense skepticism?
You have no proof of your God. All you have is a text.
ALL the other religions also have texts.
You don't believe any of them.
In like kind, why would we believe yours?
*
That's an interesting argument.
Do you think theists extend love beyond their own interest? How/Why?
Not discounting what you said about atheism, it probably depends how you define self-interest in truth. Just that I think this applies to theists as well.
Understand what you're trying to say here.
But let's assume God isn't interested in our petty divisions, and is as interested in the least of us as the best of us.
Why does it follow that believers in God are therefore capable of the same?
This is the Problem of Evil. God's works include ebola, tsunamis, and human instincts. God's zenith of wisdom is lower than the Secular Humanist Manifesto, imperfect as it is.
Tom
Not all do.
Self interest is something a person knows and chooses. The Spirit of God is able to work good works through a person unknowningly. Faith is the assurance of the hope and the persuasive proof though unseen
I think this means I can do something which makes angels cheer and I have NO IDEA I did it.
The least one is as important as the greatest one.
I agree. There are degrees of belief. The goal is to shed self interest. Jesus did it for a pattern for us to follow.
Everyone is capable of the same interest in unity. I can't see that atheism makes it possible. According to atheists what is the reason for equality? For believers it is the love of God.
Giggle. What is the plan of the Secular Humanist Manifesto for ocean waves?
I know Lewis already asked you to elaborate on that, so I will just add that I am looking forward for it as well.
Is the next phrase an attempt at addressing why you think atheism has such an effect?
It seems to me that it may happen that way, and does, for some theists. Others will instead use the concept of God to create such a wall. And many or even most atheists will not necessarily hold such a wall in the first place.
I take it that you disagree? Or is the statement about extending beyond a person's interests based on something else? It really seems odd.
Edited to add: based on your answer to Lewis, which I have just read, it seems to me that belief in God is hardly of any actual significance, although your model seems to demand that God exists. If anything, belief in God may be a sign of moral weakness, or at least the need for it seems to be.
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Belief in God is significant. Humans do not know for sure what is needed for any problem to be solved effectively. God, of course, does. God can even use a problem solver that is far removed from a problem to solve it because only God is aware of how everything is really bound together.
Someone somewhere might be suffering something I know nothing about. But something I say might offer some relief. I won't know. God knows. Belief is that powerful. Can an atheist do it? An atheist can't offer any support for belief. Jesus seems to say belief is first in importance. Fo me it is. And I am sure there are others too. Them I can help without ever knowing it. They help me without ever knowing it.
I can't say "thank you". God can though and does.
Definitely. People are people, and there are plenty of flawed theists. Plenty of flawed atheists too.
Yeah. I like to think this is so. It's almost a theoretical argument, but when I was studying pscychology, trying to break down and identify truly altruistic behaviours was interesting/frustrating.
Hmmm...this is a point of view I'm not commonly familiar with. Are you saying that your faith allows you to be a conduit for God/Angels/etc to do good works through?
I guess I was assuming you would do good works of your own volition, and that God would approve/judge these, but maybe I'm not quite right there (in terms of your beliefs)?
Well...I think I'm okay with that. Obviously we're different in our beliefs/non-beliefs, but even if I just assume Jesus was a visionary rather than God's son, he can still provide a message of selflessness and love, and still provide a pattern worth following.
I don't think atheism makes it possible. I just don't think it precludes it.
My view is that true selflessness is rare to the point of not being existent. That applies to atheists and to theists. I'll explain a little further below...
A truly 100% altruistic act is one in which the doer of the good deed receives no reward. Or at least, the reward played no role in the decision to perform the action.
The argument we had in psych was whether this is possible.
Let's say I see a homeless man, and I go and give him a hundred bucks to help him out.
Is that altruistic?
Yes. But "good"? I don't know. Righteous works through people. That is faith.
No reward is for atheists. The approval of God comes with EVERY righteous act of a believer. Theoretically only atheists can be 100% altruistic. Altruism never applies to believers.
For some people it is, and even then it is not always a good thing.
For others, it is simply not necessary or even possible.
What?
And belief, you seem to be implying, is worth having? Is that it?
I just am not aware of any kind of belief worth having that an atheist can't attain at least as easily as a theist could.
Maybe I need it spelled out. I'm not really sure what you are talking about.
Hmm, I just don't think I see the value in that.
Okay. Cool. Clarification duly noted, too. Good is very subjective, so I see your point.
Yeah, okay, that's where I was heading.
For what it's worth, I don't think any act is ever 100% altruistic. I think acts can be substantially or practically altruistic though, and believers and non-believers are both capable of those.
But there is always an element of reward, even if it's just feeling warm and fuzzy.
Belief in God is necessary for anyone's works to reach the right situation for the proper result.
What? Someone's mind is about to be derailed. I don't know it. God knows it. I have offered myself to God to be of help to my fellow human beings. God can use me to redirect the speeding train of a mind to stay on it's tract. Will I know it? No I won't. Might I be the cause of the derailment? Yes sir. I have to trust God is love and I am too so the fear of doing damage to another won't eclipse the will to do good. Either is possible. Correct?
Belief is worth preserving.
As easily or as well?
If a fellow believer is suffering something because of belief I am there to strenghthen belief. An atheist is there to abolish it. Yes?
I guess I just don't see how or why anyone would think so. It is certainly not a statement that appears supported by reality as I know of it.
I don't think anyone can possibly tell whether that is correct.
Nor do I see why it evidences that belief in God is necessary or even particularly desirable, sorry.
Some kinds of belief are. Others are very much worth destroying, so that worthier constructs can raise in their place.
If you mean belief in God... it will depend entirely on the person and to a lesser degree the circunstances. That belief definitely isn't always healthy.
Far as I can tell, both. But we are talking about your construct, so I guess that is speculative, at least coming from me.
I wish you were not quite so abstract, but yes, going by that premise, that is probably the case. But you realize that part of your premise is that the belief in harmful and should be destroyed, don't you?
I am sure God's works are very well hidden.
I agree.
True
Maybe it takes a mind seeing abstracts to also see God.
No. Suffering faith does not lead to harm. It leads to growth.
I definitely agree with you some belief is bad. Jesus calls belief that is bad weeds. I think you know what weeds can do to a garden.
Sorry, S.W., but it all just looks so arbitrary.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I have the stars over my head....and I know more of them than any prophpet before me.
I have the earth beneath my feet...and I know of it more so than any prophet before me.
I have far more cause than any prophet before me that I should have a God before me.
I don't need a book.
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I think scientists realize that the universe is homogenous at it's simplest level. Everything real shares a common trait and it is that trait that faith acts on. We are all connected. My religion tells me that to nurture it is to nurture myself. I am a person of faith. My job is to strengthen faith. Your job is to challenge it. I think you are doing a fine job of it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
And such as Einstein sought....he died trying to catch God in the act.
Someone did ask what he was working on.