Atheists: What if?

[LuisDantas]

I think scientists realize that the universe is homogenous at it's simplest level. Everything real shares a common trait and it is that trait that faith acts on. We are all connected. My religion tells me that to nurture it is to nurture myself. I am a person of faith. My job is to strengthen faith. Your job is to challenge it. I think you are doing a fine job of it.

All that just does not seem very connected with anything.

 

[Thief]

All that just does not seem very connected with anything.

Could your disconnection be the source behind your postwork?
Arbitrary?..........

 

[LuisDantas]

"My" disconnection?

 

[savagewind]

All that just does not seem very connected with anything.

This is a good sentence. It is irony. On purpose I wonder?

 

[LuisDantas]

This is a good sentence. It is irony. On purpose I wonder?

It is? I just don't see any irony there. Can you point it out?

I have however reached a conclusion: I believe you are confusing belief in God with the holding of a sense of the Sacred. Breathe helped me notice a while ago that sometimes the second looks like it is (or demands) the first.

Atheists can and often do hold a sense of the Sacred that leaves nothing to be desired.

 

[savagewind]

All that just does not seem very connected with anything.

Me: This is a good sentence. It is irony. On purpose I wonder?

It is? I just don't see any irony there. Can you point it out?

Maybe but my hopes aren't high for it. I was saying everything has a similar makeup at it's most basic level. It is how, I believe, prayer works. I can pray for someone I do not know for something he needs and that sharing at the most basic level is what my connection is to him or her and it is the sacred which carries it along that pathway. You say my words seem disconnected to the discussion which I think is funny because connection is what I was talking about. We are all connected at the most basic plane*. God's will for us is there.

I have however reached a conclusion: I believe you are confusing belief in God with the holding of a sense of the Sacred. Breathe helped me notice a while ago that sometimes the second looks like it is (or demands) the first.

Atheists can and often do hold a sense of the Sacred that leaves nothing to be desired.

What definition of sacred? I understand sacred means God and any connection with The God (there is only one - I am sure)

*I am sure there is a better word to describe it but that and level is the best I have. I am sorry.

 

[LuisDantas]

Me: This is a good sentence. It is irony. On purpose I wonder?
Maybe but my hopes aren't high for it. I was saying everything has a similar makeup at it's most basic level. It is how, I believe, prayer works. I can pray for someone I do not know for something he needs and that sharing at the most basic level is what my connection is to him or her and it is the sacred which carries it along that pathway. You say my words seem disconnected to the discussion which I think is funny because connection is what I was talking about. We are all connected at the most basic plane*. God's will for us is there.

You are talking about beliefs in the power of prayer to a God not unlike the typical Abrahamic concept.

I always found that a very exotic concept. I guess you can legitimally say I am disconnected from it. I'm not sure it means much, though.

What definition of sacred? I understand sacred means God and any connection with The God (there is only one - I am sure)

I disagree. The sacred exists and is very accessible. It is, in fact, the core concept of religion. It is the perception of the value of possibilities of people and other hypothetical sentients, of limited resources and the choices and responsibilities that such a limitation brings, of understanding and accepting our own social and emotional possibilities and duties and the resulting consequences.

As I like to say, it is having the courage and the wisdom of perceiving the flow and accepting our responsibility towards it.


God is a made-up concept that some people find useful to reach it - and others use to avoid taking responsibility for it. Not a few people actually mix both purposes to some degree or another. I wonder how many people actually benefit from such a belief, but I figure it is probably 80% at the very most generous. And I know for a fact that it does hinder the religious practice and moral character of quite a few people. In a nutshell, it is an unnecessary distraction, at least in its popular, exotic Abrahamic conception.

You have somehow convinced yourself that God is the "first" concept. Yet it is all too clear to me that it just can't be, even in religions whose doctrine says outright that such is the case.

For one thing, not everyone can even hold or much care about a clear, stable concept of God, while religious values are so much wider and more encompassing than that.

*I am sure there is a better word to describe it but that and level is the best I have. I am sorry.

 

[Ingledsva]

It is? I just don't see any irony there. Can you point it out?

I have however reached a conclusion: I believe you are confusing belief in God with the holding of a sense of the Sacred. Breathe helped me notice a while ago that sometimes the second looks like it is (or demands) the first.

Atheists can and often do hold a sense of the Sacred that leaves nothing to be desired.

Yep! People need to look up "Spiritual" in a good dictionary. It is not just religion related.

Such as -

Of, pertaining to, or Having highly developed or refined qualities of mind or sensibilities.

Linked by or sharing a deep intellectual or emotional affinity.


Spirituality? The state of being Spiritual. See above.


Sacred - Dedicated or devoted to a single use, purpose, or person.


Worthy of reverence or respect; venerable.



*

 

[LuisDantas]

Sometimes I wonder... just how much difference do people believe atheism to cause?

Do people seriously assume, for instance, that we are somehow lacking in the ability to care for people? That our emotions, perceptions or empathy are any different?

Considering that many theists make a point of pretending not to notice when they find out that a person of their circles is an atheist, it would seem that for the most part they want to believe that there is a significant difference but feel real disconfortable with the idea of verifying whether that is true.

 

[savagewind]

You are talking about beliefs in the power of prayer to a God not unlike the typical Abrahamic concept.

Yes. My faith can be described as the Abrahamic concept.

I always found that a very exotic concept. I guess you can legitimally say I am disconnected from it. I'm not sure it means much, though.

You have an opinion (an interesting one) so i don't see you are disconnected from it.

I disagree. The sacred exists and is very accessible. It is, in fact, the core concept of religion. It is the perception of the value of possibilities of people and other hypothetical sentients, of limited resources and the choices and responsibilities that such a limitation brings, of understanding and accepting our own social and emotional possibilities and duties and the resulting consequences.

This is a great description! If I was your teacher I'd give you an A+++
My view of the worship of my god is all that, but I also have a personal connection. I believe Jesus' spirit is alive and well. He is friendly. He is a person.

As I like to say, it is having the courage and the wisdom of perceiving the flow and accepting our responsibility towards it.

Yes. God guarantees it is all worth any trouble.

God is a made-up concept that some people find useful to reach it - and others use to avoid taking responsibility for it. Not a few people actually mix both purposes to some degree or another. I wonder how many people actually benefit from such a belief, but I figure it is probably 80% at the very most generous. And I know for a fact that it does hinder the religious practice and moral character of quite a few people.

It is true the God the world worships is a made up concept. God is real though.

In a nutshell, it is an unnecessary distraction, at least in its popular, exotic Abrahamic conception.

I am having fun thinking about it. I appreciate your help and I hope you also enjoy it.

 

[LuisDantas]

If your goal is to make me wonder whether you understand what I mean, you are making a very good job at it. I'm quite puzzled.

 

[Ouroboros]

Sometimes I wonder... just how much difference do people believe atheism to cause?

Do people seriously assume, for instance, that we are somehow lacking in the ability to care for people? That our emotions, perceptions or empathy are any different?

Considering that many theists make a point of pretending not to notice when they find out that a person of their circles is an atheist, it would seem that for the most part they want to believe that there is a significant difference but feel real disconfortable with the idea of verifying whether that is true.

This reminds me of an experience I had as a fundamentalist.

When I grew up, I was a pentecostal and had friends in school who were non-believers and non-Christians, but I never thought about any difference in morals, ethics, etc. It was never a question back then, at least not for me.

Later, I joined a very cultish fundamentalist church. Me and my wife were members there for years, and I worked only with Christian friends from church. Then, after some years, I had to get a new job, and I got a job for a regular secular business with a mix of people. During the last 10 years I had been so shielded from non-believers, so it was a true shock when I discovered that these atheists, non-Christians, etc, were very decent and good people. They had no problem being ethical and moral without my very specific hardcore Christian faith. It was just one out of many cracks in the wall...

 

[savagewind]

If your goal is to make me wonder whether you understand what I mean, you are making a very good job at it. I'm quite puzzled.

Me? Yes, I suspect I understand. I don't agree. But it seems I agree with most of it.

 

[savagewind]

The difference between me and the secular theory here is I have an opinion the unseen world is full of personality. And the greatest personalities are sacred. It is a worthy goal to be counted among them.

 

[LuisDantas]

The difference between me and the secular theory here is I have an opinion the unseen world is full of personality.

As in a quasi-pantheistic sense, perhaps? I guess I can grasp that somewhat, even if I disagree.

And the greatest personalities are sacred. It is a worthy goal to be counted among them.

Which personalities would not be sacred?

 

[savagewind]

As in a quasi-pantheistic sense, perhaps? I guess I can grasp that somewhat, even if I disagree.

How quasi? Not the universe is pantheistic. Heaven is. Heaven is not of this dimension.

Which personalities would not be sacred?

Of heaven they all are since ha-satan was expelled. Of Earth not many.

 

[LuisDantas]

How quasi? Not the universe is pantheistic. Heaven is. Heaven is not of this dimension.

Of heaven they all are since ha-satan was expelled. Of Earth not many.

Oh, I see. You hold a very different understanding of the sacred than mine, then.

Everyone is sacred, because everyone has such similar potentials, joys and sorrows. I suppose I would need to believe in some sort of devil or fallen angel to believe there are such things as non-sacred people.

 

[savagewind]

Oh, I see. You hold a very different understanding of the sacred than mine, then.

Everyone is sacred, because everyone has such similar potentials, joys and sorrows. I suppose I would need to believe in some sort of devil or fallen angel to believe there are such things as non-sacred people.

To meet potential requires some kind of work. Work requires power. I should not assign every person power to reach their potential because not all potential is good. Some is extremely bad.

 

[Thief]

Yep! People need to look up "Spiritual" in a good dictionary. It is not just religion related.

Such as -

Of, pertaining to, or Having highly developed or refined qualities of mind or sensibilities.

Linked by or sharing a deep intellectual or emotional affinity.


Spirituality? The state of being Spiritual. See above.


Sacred - Dedicated or devoted to a single use, purpose, or person.


Worthy of reverence or respect; venerable.



*

and you might be willing to apply these terms to an Entity of creation?

 

[Thief]

Oh, I see. You hold a very different understanding of the sacred than mine, then.

Everyone is sacred, because everyone has such similar potentials, joys and sorrows. I suppose I would need to believe in some sort of devil or fallen angel to believe there are such things as non-sacred people.

Like Hitler?