Baha'i and Science

[loverofhumanity]

Except... aah… No. Baha'is have pulled out the not written by eye-witnesses but rather by second and third hand source card. Who wrote the Bible? Who wrote the gospels? Were they passed down oral traditions? Did the events described really happen? All questionable things. Baha'is could have said "No". There is no question about it. The Bible was revealed to people by the Holy Spirit and is word for word true. But instead, Baha'is say "no". We can't say it's all true. Only the things Baha'u'llah and Abdul Baha' say is true we can trust as true.

Why keep pretending. You have your own beliefs, and some of them are very good, but when it comes to other religions, Baha'is make those other Scriptures fit into the Baha'i beliefs. Like reincarnation? A return of the "qualities" of a person? Seriously? People that believe in reincarnation are supposed say "Oh, now that makes sense. Gee, why did I ever believe such a silly thing as a soul going into a different physical body after the other body dies." So those that believe in reincarnation have made the wrong interpretation of Hindu Scriptures? Is that what you're saying?

But then Baha'is when they make an "interpretation" that really isn't an interpretation from man, it comes from an infallible prophet who got his information from God. So he's right and all the wise men of all the other religions, if they say different, are wrong. That is what the Baha'is are saying. And no matter what some Baha'is say, that is essentially saying your religion is newer, has the latest and best information and is therefore better than the other religions.

We ourselves as Baha’is have no authoritative infallible interpretations. We are just people like anyone else. God is the One Who knows all things not any human being.

The religions of God belong to God not the priests, scholars or clergy or followers but God alone. And because God is God He has the right to renew or abrogate any law of any of His religions as He so pleases. God is the Lord of all religions and He is free to do as He pleases with any of His religions.

Whatever God says is true is truth and whatever He decrees is false and not from him but man made is unquestionably so for He is God and is All Knowing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Believe what you like. And speak as you like.
But here you can read people who believe that Bahai is not good if it expands, and we speak it, and we walk a different path.

Hi old badger. I wish you and them well.


Pharaoh and his people finally arose and exerted their utmost endeavor to extinguish with the waters of falsehood and denial the fire of that sacred Tree, oblivious of the truth that no earthly water can quench the flames of Divine wisdom, nor mortal blasts extinguish the lamp of everlasting dominion. Nay, rather, such water cannot but intensify the burning of the flame, and such blastscannot but ensure the preservation of the lamp, were ye to observe with the eye of discernment, and walk in the way of God’s holy will and pleasure.…(Baha’u’llah)

 

[Aupmanyav]

In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization. (Universal House of Justice)

I won't blame them. That is the truth. Your postings in the forums, your institutions, your temples are there for no purpose other than proselytization. Education and health services should not be provided in third world countries by religious organizations. Just like the Christian evangelists, your real purpose is to fool ignorant people and to convert them to your faith.

"Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes."

It is extremely shameful that your Allah and Bahaullah talk about justice and loving kindness with all injustice and misery in the world.

And because God is God He has the right to renew or abrogate any law of any of His religions as He so pleases. God is the Lord of all religions and He is free to do as He pleases with any of His religions.

Are you talking of your Allah or some dictator in Africa, South America or Muslim ruler in Middle-East.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I won't blame them. That is the truth. Your postings in the forums, your institutions, your temples are there for no purpose other than proselytization. Education and health services should not be provided in third world countries by religious organizations. Just like the Christian evangelists, your real purpose is to fool ignorant people and to convert them to your faith.

I believed the same as you do about Baha’is but after looking into it for a number of years I found it was not as I had at first thought and I gladly became a Bahai and that was 45 years ago.

Yes there’s a lot of mistrust in the world especially towards religion and I mistrusted this Faith at first but found out that what you are saying is not the case.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am guessing that gays who are in a committed and loving relationship are not banned from joining Hinduism? Or are they basically told they are defective humans with medical problems that need to be cured or hidden in order to be considered 'true' Hindu? Because if not, that would be an actual example of unity in diversity and not just claiming it.

Yes, gays are welcome in Hinduism, and allowed to act on their nature. There is no hypocritical 'hate the sin, love the sinner; stuff going on. There is a spark of divinity within all, and it's all part of the diversity of life. (Of course there may be individuals or groups that hate, but they would be in the minority, and influenced by outside factors.)

 

[Vinayaka]

Have you ever heard me saying what the Baha'i Faith says about Hinduism? How could I when there is nothing in our Writings about Hinduism? Baha'is believe that Krishna was a Manifestation of God and I am not even sure where that is in the Writings. Baha'u'llah never addressed Hinduism, not to my knowledge.

What Hinduism is is a complete mystery to me because there are so many different sects of Hinduism, so at best I just throw up my hands and say "I don't know."

If you don't know, then why believe Krishna was a manifestation of God? Which is it? You don't know, or that Krishna is a manifestation of God? The two are contradictory.

 

[Vinayaka]

Proselytising is against our laws. We share our Faith but are forbidden to proselytise.

It is true that Bahá'u'lláh lays on every Bahá'í the duty to teach His Faith. At the same time, however, we are forbidden to proselytize, so it is important for all believers to understand the difference between teaching and proselytizing. It is a significant difference and, in some countries where teaching a religion is permitted, but proselytizing is forbidden, the distinction is made in the law of the land. Proselytizing implies bringing undue pressure to bear upon someone to change his Faith. It is also usually understood to imply the making of threats or the offering of material benefits as an inducement to conversion. In some countries mission schools or hospitals, for all the good they do, are regarded with suspicion and even aversion by the local authorities because they are considered to be material inducements to conversion and hence instruments of proselytization. (Universal House of Justice)

All but Baha'i believe otherwise. Carry on.

 

[Vinayaka]

Gays are not banned from joining and being active members of the Baha'i Faith.
Gays are not told they are defective humans with medical problems that need to be cured or hidden in order to be considered Baha'is.
I am getting sick of hearing these lies and I won't tolerate them anymore.

"Hate the sin, but love the sinner," is hypocrisy. Why do you never mention the fact that gays are forbidden to act on their inclinations? So the only gay that is accepted is a celibate gay? This is a form of deception ... not telling the whole story. I wonder how many gays signed their membership cards not knowing the complete story?

 

[Vinayaka]

As long as women cannot be members of the UHJ the Baha'i faith is prejudiced against women. As long as homosexuals are treated as carrying a spiritual contagion, the Baha'i faith is a-scientific and just so long as people are declared "covenant breakers" and shunned for absurd reasons, the Baha'i faith is not universal.

Can you imagine, in these days if a large democracy like the US, only allowed men in the senate, the Supreme court, etc.? I cannot figure out how lay members in Baha'i can't see the discrimination. Yes, they make excuses, ('in the future the reason will be known', for example) but none of those excuses hold any logic.

 

[Vinayaka]

We ourselves as Baha’is have no authoritative infallible interpretations. We are just people like anyone else. God is the One Who knows all things not any human being.

The religions of God belong to God not the priests, scholars or clergy or followers but God alone. And because God is God He has the right to renew or abrogate any law of any of His religions as He so pleases. God is the Lord of all religions and He is free to do as He pleases with any of His religions.

Whatever God says is true is truth and whatever He decrees is false and not from him but man made is unquestionably so for He is God and is All Knowing.

This is all false logic. No different than some guy before a judge saying, "it wasn't me who shot the person, as God told me to."

Yes God is God, but no human gets exclusive rights to interpretation. You simply can't logically go about saying it's God's view, not yours.

 

[wandering peacefully]

No. They are not. Actually we have a religious order dedicated solely to LGBTQ. That is known as Kinnar Akhada. This is the Chief of Kinnar Akhada. She is a qualified electrical engineer. They are respected by common people who seek their blessings. A blessing from LGBTQ to new-borns is considered very ausicious and is sort of a must. We treat LGBTQ, in life and in law, as any other people. They play important parts in our mythology. We have Gods and Goddesses who are partial to LGBTQ - Yellamma, Iravan, Bahuchara Mata and possibly more. The last thing that has to come is acceptance of gay-marriage, and we hope that Indian law will accept it soon. However, as Hindus, we do not go about seeking adherents. We consider that demeaning.

Wow. So colourful and uplifting. There has been so much talk of Hinduism I thought I would take a cursory look on line. It's incredible all of the various thoughts and traditions it would take years to become familiar with it all. One thing I noticed right away was that Hinduism has no founder or prophets. It is a group of various traditions and more a way of life than a set of doctrines and rules. Totally different than the Abrahamics. I was a little a little suprised to find no mention of Krishna as a founder or prophet etc when I have read posts by Bahai over and over stating that this one of many gods, is the founder and prophet of Hinduism. Not even close so I can understand the pushback of the misinformation. It certainly is a fascinating and complex belief system. I think I would like to investigate it a little more and try reading some of the major texts. Not to become part of the tradition but out of an interest in learning more about the stories and myths of such an old and interesting group of traditions. The inclusive attitudes and lack of doctrine is really different from other religions.

 

[wandering peacefully]

I am getting sick of hearing these lies and I won't tolerate them anymore.

Not quite sure what to make of this. Is it a threat or have you just become so emerged in your religion you feel you are some type of divine defender of the contradictory and false narratives? It is not that important. It is just another offshoot of Islam and one of thousands of other minor belief systems out there. It is not worth calling others liars when all they are doing is pointing out the obvious contradictions between what is written by the prophets and leaders of the religion and what the adherents claim are the views. They often don't match. But it really is no different than many other religions. Nothing to get upset about or feel personally responsible for. Maybe just take a step back and try to look at what other people see with an open mind? Or just go about happily following your chosen belief system without the need to prove to everyone else what you personally feel is the ultimate truth? Everyone has what they feel is their own truths and ways of living. There must be uplifting practices, rituals or community involvement activities which would unite you with others who think the same way? Then it wouldn't always be a negative outcome making one feel as if they always are defending their views. Idk, it just seems a waste of time trying to convince strangers who do not think the religion is something they should be interested in. Especially if it becomes upsetting to you.

 

[wandering peacefully]

Yes, gays are welcome in Hinduism, and allowed to act on their nature. There is no hypocritical 'hate the sin, love the sinner; stuff going on. There is a spark of divinity within all, and it's all part of the diversity of life. (Of course there may be individuals or groups that hate, but they would be in the minority, and influenced by outside factors.)

To me, that attitude of judgement and ultimate truth in the Abrahamics will become their eventual death. It was an archaic way of thinking and living which evolved over 2,000 years ago probably needed at the time to control various competing tribes. But thankfully we now understand many ways of thinking in the past are not beneficial for a peaceful, inclusive society and in many cases a real harmful and unfair way to view our fellow humans. We are still recovering from these attitudes and it will still be a while before the archaic thinking dies out, but it is definitely on its way out. The Dharmic views seem more of a complimentary way of keeping spiritual attitudes with room for growth of societies and individuals rather than a divisive never changing rule of law by a single vengeful god. It's time to bury that god and his selectively judgmental attitudes.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

To me, that attitude of judgement and ultimate truth in the Abrahamics will become their eventual death. It was an archaic way of thinking and living which evolved over 2,000 years ago probably needed at the time to control various competing tribes. But thankfully we now understand many ways of thinking in the past are not beneficial for a peaceful, inclusive society and in many cases a real harmful and unfair way to view our fellow humans. We are still recovering from these attitudes and it will still be a while before the archaic thinking dies out, but it is definitely on its way out. The Dharmic views seem more of a complimentary way of keeping spiritual attitudes with room for growth of societies and individuals rather than a divisive never changing rule of law by a single vengeful god. It's time to bury that god and his selectively judgmental attitudes.

I mean, it just amazes me - Hinduism is very old, but their ideas and stories... some of them just seem so entertaining and modern.

 

[wandering peacefully]

I mean, it just amazes me - Hinduism is very old, but their ideas and stories... some of them just seem so entertaining and modern.

I am actually looking forward to learning more.

 

[Aupmanyav]

To me, that attitude of judgement and ultimate truth in the Abrahamics will become their eventual death. It was an archaic way of thinking and living which evolved over 2,000 years ago probably needed at the time to control various competing tribes. But thankfully we now understand many ways of thinking in the past are not beneficial for a peaceful, inclusive society and in many cases a real harmful and unfair way to view our fellow humans. We are still recovering from these attitudes and it will still be a while before the archaic thinking dies out, but it is definitely on its way out. The Dharmic views seem more of a complimentary way of keeping spiritual attitudes with room for growth of societies and individuals rather than a divisive never changing rule of law by a single vengeful god. It's time to bury that god and his selectively judgmental attitudes.

You are welcome. As I said main-line Hinduism does not proselytize, though Hare-Krishnas do. people do join us but they should come of their own choice and after some study of Hinduism. Dont be surprised by the variety of opinions. All these are considered valid (barring a few).

Hinduism is mix of indigenous views and those of the Indo-Europeans (Vedic Aryans). It is much older than just 2000 years. I can trace part of it to Kurgan cultures and another part to Mohenjodaro and Harappa. That is why Europe has Zeus (with us, Dyava), Ouranos (Varuna), Eos (Usha), Ašvieniai (Ashwins), perun (parjanya). We do not subtract anything, only add.

India is the only part of the world where Indo-Euroean culture still survives and is dynamic. I wish you the best for your study of Hinduism whenever you have time. Dont go for major texts just right now. First check about things in Wikipedia. If you have questions, you can always visit the Hindu forum. I appreciate your interest.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I won't blame them. That is the truth. Your postings in the forums, your institutions, your temples are there for no purpose other than proselytization. Education and health services should not be provided in third world countries by religious organizations. Just like the Christian evangelists, your real purpose is to fool ignorant people and to convert them to your faith.It is extremely shameful that your Allah and Bahaullah talk about justice and loving kindness with all injustice and misery in the world.Are you talking of your Allah or some dictator in Africa, South America or Muslim ruler in Middle-East.

As I’m a theist I believe in God but as you don’t then maybe I shouldn’t have mentioned that at all.

As to Justice, Baha’u’llah says that we have been given the gift of our minds to investigate truth for ourselves.

 

[Vinayaka]

I won't blame them. That is the truth. Your postings in the forums, your institutions, your temples are there for no purpose other than proselytization. Education and health services should not be provided in third world countries by religious organizations. Just like the Christian evangelists, your real purpose is to fool ignorant people and to convert them to your faith.

Christians area far bigger concern as they have money to send to build educational institutions. The millions of dollars funneled into that, proselytising in the disguise of charity or education, is despicable. They could easily give that same money to a Hindu institution doing the same stuff within the correct context. Baha'is have no big money, so it's far less of a concern. Still, the intent is the same. Fortunately, under Modi, Hindu institutions are doing somewhat better, and we can build our own schools, and their won't need to be a compulsory 'religion' class.

Much like this: Ekal Vidylaya passes 100 000 schools milestone

They could just give their money to these guys ... already organised, understand the culture, understand the language. It would be far more efficient.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As this thread was once about Baha'i and Science, I was looking into the science of projection, as I see the same posters keep returning to impute the same accusations year after year, I found those academics that look into this topic of projection say mostly the same thing.

I find it interesting as I always thought if I concentrated on the bad things in life then really I was just projecting the potential in me. Same as concentrating on the good, if that is all I project, then I am bring forth what is inherent within, it becomes a choice as to what to focus on. The negative or the positive.

This is one quote from the net;

"Projection is the process through which they reveal who they are and what they’re doing. Through projection, they call you what they are. They accuse you of doing what they’re doing or planning on doing. They throw all the uncomfortable feelings onto you because they don’t want to deal with them. They throw their shame on you so they don’t have to deal with it. They make you feel guilty for who they are and what they’re doing because they’re unable to feel that guilt themselves.
So, essentially projection is an unconscious way of denying the existence of something inside oneself and attributing it to others, externalizing it. This could be unacceptable or unwanted characteristic, flaws, thoughts, emotions, actions, feelings.
It’s a defense mechanism.
Anybody can do this. You can be projecting things onto people and not even realize it."

Peace be with one and all, have a great day Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

As this thread was once about Baha'i and Science, I was looking into the science of projection, as I see the same posters keep returning to impute the same accusations year after year, I found those academics that look into this topic of projection say mostly the same thing.

I find it interesting as I always thought if I concentrated on the bad things in life then really I was just projecting the potential in me. Same as concentrating on the good, if that is all I project, then I am bring forth what is inherent within, it becomes a choice as to what to focus on. The negative or the positive.

This is one quote from the net;

"Projection is the process through which they reveal who they are and what they’re doing. Through projection, they call you what they are. They accuse you of doing what they’re doing or planning on doing. They throw all the uncomfortable feelings onto you because they don’t want to deal with them. They throw their shame on you so they don’t have to deal with it. They make you feel guilty for who they are and what they’re doing because they’re unable to feel that guilt themselves.
So, essentially projection is an unconscious way of denying the existence of something inside oneself and attributing it to others, externalizing it. This could be unacceptable or unwanted characteristic, flaws, thoughts, emotions, actions, feelings.
It’s a defense mechanism.
Anybody can do this. You can be projecting things onto people and not even realize it."

Peace be with one and all, have a great day Regards Tony

Yes indeed, a classic case of projection is using 'we' instead of ''I' when talking of folks ideas. I think it's better to allow other people to do their own thinking rather than assuming you know how they think.