Baha'i and Science

[oldbadger]

Hi old badger. I wish you and them well.

Thank you for that.

Pharaoh and his people................. oblivious of the truth .................. of Divine wisdom, ...................were ye to observe with the eye of discernment, and walk in the way of God’s holy will and pleasure.…(Baha’u’llah)

I am a Deist. I walk within Nature's laws.
And so did your Bahauallah. See, with eyes of discernment! ..... He is gone for over a century, and his religion but a minute drop of water in the ocean of humanity. It groweth not, for the people will discern its claws and teeth hidden within its soft pinions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thank you for that.



I am a Deist. I walk within Nature's laws.
And so did your Bahauallah. See, with eyes of discernment! ..... He is gone for over a century, and his religion but a minute drop of water in the ocean of humanity. It groweth not, for the people will discern its claws and teeth hidden within its soft pinions.

Yes definitely. We are just a very insignificant drop in the ocean. Not really worth worrying about.

 

[CG Didymus]

We ourselves as Baha’is have no authoritative infallible interpretations. We are just people like anyone else. God is the One Who knows all things not any human being.

The religions of God belong to God not the priests, scholars or clergy or followers but God alone. And because God is God He has the right to renew or abrogate any law of any of His religions as He so pleases. God is the Lord of all religions and He is free to do as He pleases with any of His religions.

Whatever God says is true is truth and whatever He decrees is false and not from him but man made is unquestionably so for He is God and is All Knowing.

But the Hebrew Bible and the NT needed to be interpreted. If there is an all-knowing, all-loving God, then sure, what God says is true. But, does that make either the Hebrew Bible or the NT true? Especially the NT, since Jesus wrote nothing and how do we know his words were remembered correctly?

I really, really think that the gospel stories about the resurrection meant exactly what they say. If they are wrong. Then I think it nothing but a made up story to get people to believe Jesus was superhuman, a virtual God. But, if the story is true, then maybe he was a God/man. But, the very bottom of all interpretations I've heard is the one by Abdul Baha. The resurrection was the disciples finally after three days remembering the teachings of Jesus and started teaching and living by those teachings? And that brought life to the body of Jesus? Meaning that his disciples were his body in a spiritual, symbolic way. If it works for you fine.

But that is very similar to the interpretation of reincarnation too. The "qualities" of a person returns in another person? I don't think so. If you don't believe in reincarnation, just plainly say so.

 

[CG Didymus]

You simply can't logically go about saying it's God's view, not yours.

That's the same thing Fundy Christians say... "God says in his word." No matter what the Bible or NT says, it's got to be true because "it is God's word." Baha'is.... "Baha'u'llah said it, therefore it's true because what ever he says is God's word."

 

[loverofhumanity]

But the Hebrew Bible and the NT needed to be interpreted. If there is an all-knowing, all-loving God, then sure, what God says is true. But, does that make either the Hebrew Bible or the NT true? Especially the NT, since Jesus wrote nothing and how do we know his words were remembered correctly?

I really, really think that the gospel stories about the resurrection meant exactly what they say. If they are wrong. Then I think it nothing but a made up story to get people to believe Jesus was superhuman, a virtual God. But, if the story is true, then maybe he was a God/man. But, the very bottom of all interpretations I've heard is the one by Abdul Baha. The resurrection was the disciples finally after three days remembering the teachings of Jesus and started teaching and living by those teachings? And that brought life to the body of Jesus? Meaning that his disciples were his body in a spiritual, symbolic way. If it works for you fine.

But that is very similar to the interpretation of reincarnation too. The "qualities" of a person returns in another person? I don't think so. If you don't believe in reincarnation, just plainly say so.

Yes I know that interpretation by Abdul-Baha that after Jesus passed away here was doubt in the disciples. Then after 3 days they became aware of His true station and that He was not dead and then His Cause became alive again after a period of doubt.

as to reincarnation He says it’s the qualities which I agree with because the rise of next year returns in essence but not the same actual DNA of this years rose.

 

[CG Didymus]

I see the same posters keep returning to impute the same accusations year after year,

We are just a very insignificant drop in the ocean. Not really worth worrying about.

I've been around Baha'i several years and went with them to mass teaching projects. I question you guys on things that don't sound right, because maybe you guys are a false religion. But, if you pass the tests and prove yourselves to be a true religion, then you are the most important religions for these times. But, right now, you don't sound like it. You are not bringing religions together in unity. You don't always know that much, or in some cases, don't care to know about other people's religions. And that gives some of us the feeling that the only reason you're here is to "teach" your religion. And, anyone who questions your beliefs and motives is then accused of being blinded by their old beliefs, or worse, accused of being a hater.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's the same thing Fundy Christians say... "God says in his word." No matter what the Bible or NT says, it's got to be true because "it is God's word." Baha'is.... "Baha'u'llah said it, therefore it's true because what ever he says if God's word."

A kid in grade 6 would figure out the false logic. But it's a type of psychological conditioning that runs deep. There has been so much self affirmation on it that the patient actually does believe it. For those of us with a more open mind, and no such programming, it's harder to understand, as we have no experience on such.
At one time I thought my Dad was perfect too.

 

[CG Didymus]

So, um, how old do Baha'is believe the book of Genesis to be? Do they believe Moses wrote most of it?

Baha'is... I still haven't seen a response to Kat-Kat's question. I've been waiting to hear it myself.

 

[Vinayaka]

Baha'is... I still haven't seen a response to Kat-Kat's question. I've been waiting to hear it myself.

There are lots of questions that are just left unanswered. I'm not sure why either, but I suspect it's a strategy. Course I'm probably dead wrong about that, the hater with an anti-Baha'i agenda that I am. Carry on.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They could just give their money to these guys ... already organised, understand the culture, understand the language. It would be far more efficient.

That would be money down the drain or even worse, helping those from whom they want to steal. The merchants of religions are not fools.

Baha'is... I still haven't seen a response to Kat-Kat's question. I've been waiting to hear it myself.

That is easy and Bahais have said it repeatedly. There is no proof that passages attributed to Moses were uttered by Moses, therefore, the authenticity of OT cannot be taken as granted. And that goes for all other religions as well, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism. But my Bahai friends would not agree to Ahmadiyyas because Mirza Ghulam Ahmad himself wrote and published his teachings. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was sent by Allah even during the lifetime of Bahaullah. Allah had a new message, more up-to-date than even that of Bahaullah. Mirza was the Mahdi or returning Jesus. Bahais are at fault not to accept the latest message from Allah.

 

[loverofhumanity]

There are lots of questions that are just left unanswered. I'm not sure why either, but I suspect it's a strategy. Course I'm probably dead wrong about that, the hater with an anti-Baha'i agenda that I am. Carry on.

There are many Baha’i resources online such as the official Bahá’í Reference library where all one has to do is type in a search bar to get multiple answers.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

I myself do the same as I don’t remember every answer by heart because there is such a vast amount of knowledge that the Bahai Revelation has brought. There is almost a written official answer for every possible question that I myself could just answer many questions with a direct quote or letter.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Baha'is... I still haven't seen a response to Kat-Kat's question. I've been waiting to hear it myself.

Thanks. I don’t remember seeing it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I've been around Baha'i several years and went with them to mass teaching projects. I question you guys on things that don't sound right, because maybe you guys are a false religion. But, if you pass the tests and prove yourselves to be a true religion, then you are the most important religions for these times. But, right now, you don't sound like it. You are not bringing religions together in unity. You don't always know that much, or in some cases, don't care to know about other people's religions. And that gives some of us the feeling that the only reason you're here is to "teach" your religion. And, anyone who questions your beliefs and motives is then accused of being blinded by their old beliefs, or worse, accused of being a hater.

Then the choice we all get, is to make our own selves better and the key here is new and it is old teachings, remove the plank from our own eye before, attempting to moving a splinter from another.

I see that is to look for and promote what is good, I see we all have different views on what is good, so maybe we start with the basics of Trustworthy, Truthfull and all the rest of what is good will slowly become manifest within us.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Anyway, here's how I see it: The Baha'i faith uses a lot of confusing terms. Then Shoghi... well, I find it hard to say good things about him. But Baha'is will probably take a Fundamentalist approach at my statements and say I'm attacking their faith with such statements. Yet unlike with other human beings, I don't think faith deserves quite as much respect at default face-value as other humans do. Respect must be established in belief systems / religion.

And finally, I really need to say this: Baha'i is really confusing. A person can study it for a week and still get it wrong, to the extent they can hardly even discuss with most Baha'is. There are three truths: what the Baha'i says at face-value, how the other side can interpret such a thing and lastly, the actual meaning meant.

Now I do respect the Baha'i faith a lot for various reasons, many of them involving Bahaullah. But I can't wave every ounce of respect automatically and to everything.

KAT you’re asking very fair questions and I would encourage you to continue to do so. I’m most happy to discuss openly and freely. Only Baha’u’llah asked us that if people make accusations or say unkind things not to respond except with gentleness and to remain friends as that is far more important. So ask away and I’ll do my best to be as helpful as I can.

I can’t find your post regarding a Genesis so I’ll post an answer here if that’s ok?

I don’t know how old Genesis is. But I did find some writings that may interest you.

the Torah that God hath confirmed consists of the exact words that streamed forth at the bidding of God from the tongue of Him Who conversed with Him (Moses).
(From a previously untranslated Tablet) Baha’u’llah


What is intended by the creation of heaven and earth in six days is a spiritual creation and a divine day, as prior to the creation of this heaven and earth there were no days and nights.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet) Abdul-Baha

So for instance in the Adamic cycle we have had about seven Divine Days of God. These Days correspond to each Manifestation or Educator. So we have had Moses, Krishna, Buddha, Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah Who closed the Adamic cycle and inaugurated the Baha’i Cycle which is to last 500,000 years.

The Four Gospels were written after Him [Christ]. John, Luke, Mark and Matthew - these four wrote after Christ what they remembered of His utterances.
(From a previously untranslated Tablet) Baha’u’llah

 

[Vinayaka]

There are many Baha’i resources online such as the official Bahá’í Reference library where all one has to do is type in a search bar to get multiple answers.

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

I myself do the same as I don’t remember every answer by heart because there is such a vast amount of knowledge that the Bahai Revelation has brought. There is almost a written official answer for every possible question that I myself could just answer many questions with a direct quote or letter.

I asked you recently ... "Who is the founder of Hinduism?" Sorry but the Baha'i library doesn't give an answer. Of course, yes, google does. But you had said you believe in all of the founders of all the major religions, so I was wondering who you considered the founder of Hinduism.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've been around Baha'i several years and went with them to mass teaching projects. I question you guys on things that don't sound right, because maybe you guys are a false religion. But, if you pass the tests and prove yourselves to be a true religion, then you are the most important religions for these times. But, right now, you don't sound like it. You are not bringing religions together in unity. You don't always know that much, or in some cases, don't care to know about other people's religions. And that gives some of us the feeling that the only reason you're here is to "teach" your religion. And, anyone who questions your beliefs and motives is then accused of being blinded by their old beliefs, or worse, accused of being a hater.

Im always happy to read your posts and others here and learn from you all. I’m happy for you to question because that’s what we have minds for so please feel most welcome to ask away,

There's so much to learn I plead being the most ignorant here because when I look at so many things to learn, I could not possibly learn half of anything in 100 lifetimes.

I know very little if anything much at all. The only one thing that I actually know in myself, by myself is that in my heart I know Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation of God as are all the others. Other than that I have very little knowledge of anything much at all so please excuse that I am just a simple person without any special knowledge.


As far as teaching. Anytime if you feel or anyone else here feels unhappy speaking with us then we can leave if I can offer to leave if you’d prefer that?

No you are not a hater, you just have hard questions to ask which is very fair considering the claims Baha’u’llah makes.

But we are imperfect and so our answers are often imperfect too so I apologise if i have rubbed you or others up the wrong way because that would be due to me being not as good a Baha’i as I should be. Thanks for being so patient. You’re always, as anyone here, welcome to my home for lunch or dinner!

 

[loverofhumanity]

I asked you recently ... "Who is the founder of Hinduism?" Sorry but the Baha'i library doesn't give an answer. Of course, yes, google does. But you had said you believe in all of the founders of all the major religions, so I was wondering who you considered the founder of Hinduism.

The origin and founder of Hinduism is unknown.

 

[CG Didymus]

That is the way, 1 Thessalonians - "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".

There is a Hidden Word;

"O Son of Spirit!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

Now let's see what comes up a couple verses later...

1 Thessalonians 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.​

Do Baha'is believe the NT? Even when it says the Jesus Christ is the one coming? So what is the Baha'i interpretation of verse 23?

 

[CG Didymus]

Im always happy to read your posts and others here and learn from you all. I’m happy for you to question because that’s what we have minds for so please feel most welcome to ask away,

There's so much to learn I plead being the most ignorant here because when I look at so many things to learn, I could not possibly learn half of anything in 100 lifetimes.

I know very little if anything much at all. The only one thing that I actually know in myself, by myself is that in my heart I know Baha’u’llah is a Manifestation of God as are all the others. Other than that I have very little knowledge of anything much at all so please excuse that I am just a simple person without any special knowledge.


As far as teaching. Anytime if you feel or anyone else here feels unhappy speaking with us then we can leave if I can offer to leave if you’d prefer that?

No you are not a hater, you just have hard questions to ask which is very fair considering the claims Baha’u’llah makes.

But we are imperfect and so our answers are often imperfect too so I apologise if i have rubbed you or others up the wrong way because that would be due to me being not as good a Baha’i as I should be. Thanks for being so patient. You’re always, as anyone here, welcome to my home for lunch or dinner!

That was the most Baha'i thing a Baha'i could ever say. That was beautiful.

 

[CG Didymus]

The origin and founder of Hinduism is unknown.

There's lots of issues. One is that a manifestation is supposed to bring new social teachings to keep civilization moving forward. So what did Krishna bring? He didn't bring a new religion, but did he bring something that changed Hinduism for the better? Another would be was Krishna a historical person or a myth and legend? And then the same with the story. Were they real events?

I have no problem with things being religious myths. Stories handed down that teach lessons. But, in this case, Baha'is take Krishna as a not only a real person but a manifestation of the one true God. Does the stories about Krishna confirm that? Then there is the question of the Baha'is calling the past age the "Adamic" cycle. But Hinduism has their own cycles. So how does the Baha'i Faith tie in those cycles or do they?