Bakers Who Refused Lesbian Couple A Wedding Cake WILL Have To Pay $135,000

[Skwim]

I certainly don't believe Jesus' method of changing hearts involved or justifies beating or force.

I don't think this is a matter of "changing hearts," as much as it's a matter of "Stop being who you are and start being someone I approve of. Stop being attracted to people of the same sex and start being attracted to those of the other sex because that's the way I like things."

.

.

 

[InChrist]

That doesn’t mesh with what you said earlier.

I don't recall ever advocating beating homosexuals or any violence at all. If I was ever in a situation where anyone, a homosexual or otherwise was being beaten or attacked I would do whatever was in my ability to stop such treatment.

 

[InChrist]

I don't think this is a matter of "changing hearts," as much as it's a matter of "Stop being who you are and start being someone I approve of. Stop being attracted to people of the same sex and start being attracted to those of the other sex because that's the way I like things."

.

.

Well, I suppose it depends on the way you see things and I see it from the perspective revealed by God in the scriptures. The way I like things is irrelevant. An adulterer could say that is who they are because they are someone who is attracted to another person's spouse. Some people are attracted to dogs or sheep and some desire to have sex with children. God states that these are unacceptable and sinful sexual practices and I trust His wisdom as the Creator concerning how human beings are to best function. Besides, I just don't think "who a person is" is defined by their sexual desires.

 

[InChrist]

I would be more confident about what Jesus' methods involved if He had actually left us a record Himself, rather than leave it to the fallible and ethically primitive people of 1st century Judea.
I don't think that He would have condoned such methods either. But modern Christians believe a lot of things you won't find in the red words.
Tom

I agree people in general and Christians believe a lot of things which are inaccurate. I think you may have more confidence if you spent time reading the scriptures and talking to Jesus Himself, rather than looking at modern Christians.

 

[InChrist]

Hate comes in many forms, and doesn't necessarily mean one views the object of their hate with what is conventionally defined as hatred, nor does it necessarily involve animosity, seething, and frothing at the mouth.

Oh, I wasn't aware that the definition of words was so fluid.
Anyway, according to the Bible believers are to speak the truth in love. Hating others is not an option whatever the form.

 

[columbus]

I agree people in general and Christians believe a lot of things which are inaccurate. I think you may have more confidence if you spent time reading the scriptures

I can't help but notice how much Christian beliefs and attitudes seem to contradict Jesus. I'm quite familiar with Scriptures, as a matter of fact. It's been a long time since I studied, having noticed how little They have to do with the Christian nation I live in. A seems a waste of time to keep on the chapter and verses, when True Christian beliefs are just whatever a self described Christian happens to believe.

and talking to Jesus Himself.

Unfortunately, I find that people who are convinced that they talk to Jesus Himself all too often wind up convinced that He has told them some really bad things. And there's no way to convince them differently if they just reinterpret some verses to mean what they want them to mean. That's the biggest problem with such a subjective method as praying for guidance. There's no way to distinguish Truth from self-delusion.
Tom

 

[InChrist]

I can't help but notice how much Christian beliefs and attitudes seem to contradict Jesus. I'm quite familiar with Scriptures, as a matter of fact. It's been a long time since I studied, having noticed how little They have to do with the Christian nation I live in. A seems a waste of time to keep on the chapter and verses, when True Christian beliefs are just whatever a self described Christian happens to believe.

Unfortunately, I find that people who are convinced that they talk to Jesus Himself all too often wind up convinced that He has told them some really bad things. And there's no way to convince them differently if they just reinterpret some verses to mean what they want them to mean. That's the biggest problem with such a subjective method as praying for guidance. There's no way to distinguish Truth from self-delusion.
Tom

I understand what you are saying and it can be discouraging and frustrating, I find it important to keep my focus on Jesus instead of others, especially Christians. I believe the scriptures interpret themselves and any personal views or subjective thoughts which occur during prayer must be tested and line up the scriptures. Certainly problems arise when people don't subject their own thoughts and views to God's word, but then again I think it is a process and God is very patient.

 

[Revoltingest]

Any religion that considers homosexuality an “affront to God” has a laundry list of things that are also “affronts to God.” The mere fact that a religion opposes homosexuality isn’t enough to explain why an adherent gives homosexuality special focus.

Who says they focus more so on that?
I notice the same folk opposing other things, eg, amarital sex.

 

[Revoltingest]

Touching on this along with what @Revoltingest was talking about recently: plenty of religious people claim that homosexuality is a choice, despite plenty of evidence to the contrary. One way to explain this is if these religious people fight against their own strong homosexual feelings through sheer force of will and because of this, think that other people are capable of doing it, too.

Belief that homosexuality is a choice appears to be endemic in Xianity.
They tell me that all people are born knowing what sin is, & that
committing it is within their power to avoid being it. I disagree, of course.

Are you arguing that opposing homosexuality is rooted in something other
than religion.....their own latent homosexuality, perhaps?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Belief that homosexuality is a choice appears to be endemic in Xianity.
They tell me that all people are born knowing what sin is, & that
committing it is within their power to avoid being it. I disagree, of course.

Are you arguing that opposing homosexuality is rooted in something other
than religion.....their own latent homosexuality, perhaps?

I’m saying that the idea that homosexuality is a choice runs contrary to all available evidence, but that someone who was trying to suppress their own homosexuality could reasonably believe that others could suppress their homosexuality, too.

OTOH, I can’t see how someone who has never been “tempted” by the same sex would consider their own sexual orientation to be a choice. Can you?

 

[Revoltingest]

I’m saying that the idea that homosexuality is a choice runs contrary to all available evidence, but that someone who was trying to suppress their own homosexuality could reasonably believe that others could suppress their homosexuality, too.

OTOH, I can’t see how someone who has never been “tempted” by the same sex would consider their own sexual orientation to be a choice. Can you?

I don't expect religions ditch beliefs contradicted by scientific evidence.
Just look at creationism, the flood, Adam & Eve, etc.
Do you think opposition to homosexuality is not religion based?

 

[columbus]

you think opposition to homosexuality is not religion based?

I don't think any of this is absolute. People's motivations are super complex. But I honestly don't think that there is much truly religious opposition. Religious texts are used to justify everything from rank ignorance to the "ick" factor to latency issues and more. Claims that start with some form of "God says..." are just less taxing to the mind. That's popular with people who prefer to let someone else do their thinking for them.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you would like an anecdotal data point, you can use me. I used to be anti-LGBT before I came out. I'm not proud of it, but I'm trying to make up for it.

Me as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't think any of this is absolute. People's motivations are super complex. But I honestly don't think that there is much truly religious opposition. Religious texts are used to justify everything from rank ignorance to the "ick" factor to latency issues and more. Claims that start with some form of "God says..." are just less taxing to the mind. That's popular with people who prefer to let someone else do their thinking for them.
Tom

Of course, religious texts can be used to support this or that.
But they also lead people (along with culture) to believe things.

Note that I don't defend what they believe. But I oppose glib
unscientific attacks upon them as closet gays themselves.

 

[columbus]

Of course, religious texts can be used to support this or that.
But they also lead people (along with culture) to believe things.

Note that I don't defend what they believe. But I oppose glib
unscientific attacks upon them as closet gays themselves.

It's definitely overdone, in my experienced opinion.
And while my opinions are not backed up with peer reviewed studies, I have a lot of anecdotal, subjective data. It's definitely not scientific, but I have a lot of interactions. Due to organizations I have been part of, volunteer work I have done, my tendency to chat up people I don't know, and various other characteristics of mine, I have a lot of experience with religious people, gay people, and particularly gay religious people. Of course, I am as subject to confirmation bias as anyone and all that.

But yeah, latency issues do seem to show up in religious bigotry more than most kinds of issues. It really is a thing, as far as I can tell.
Tom

 

[Revoltingest]

It's definitely overdone, in my experienced opinion.
And while my opinions are not backed up with peer reviewed studies, I have a lot of anecdotal, subjective data. It's definitely not scientific, but I have a lot of interactions. Due to organizations I have been part of, volunteer work I have done, my tendency to chat up people I don't know, and various other characteristics of mine, I have a lot of experience with religious people, gay people, and particularly gay religious people. Of course, I am as subject to confirmation bias as anyone and all that.

But yeah, latency issues do seem to show up in religious bigotry more than most kinds of issues. It really is a thing, as far as I can tell.
Tom

Chatting up people all over the place is my thing too.
(One might gather this from my slightly abnormal posting rate.)
We each see what we see.

 

[columbus]

We each see what we see.

Definitely true. It also matters where we are when looking around.

If occurs to me to add something to my last post. Given the nearly chaotic complexity of human motivations, it is quite possible that latency issues push people towards homophobic religious organizations. If you feel that inside you, and don't want it, increasing your devotion to an organization that reinforces your desire to be straight would make sense. In a way. I dunno.
Tom

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh, I wasn't aware that the definition of words was so fluid.
Anyway, according to the Bible believers are to speak the truth in love. Hating others is not an option whatever the form.

Yet many Christians do regard LBGT people with a condescending, patronizing, and highly judgemental attitude.

 

[Revoltingest]

Definitely true. It also matters where we are when looking around.

If occurs to me to add something to my last post. Given the nearly chaotic complexity of human motivations, it is quite possible that latency issues push people towards homophobic religious organizations. If you feel that inside you, and don't want it, increasing your devotion to an organization that reinforces your desire to be straight would make sense. In a way. I dunno.
Tom

Or it could be that they're straight, & cannot conceive how anyone would feel otherwise.
And as God's chosen, they certainly have the only natural & virtuous feelings.
So anything icky to them would be an affront to God.

 

[columbus]

Or it could be that they're straight, & cannot conceive how anyone would feel otherwise.
And as God's chosen, they certainly have the only natural & virtuous feelings.
So anything icky to them would be an affront to God.

Oh, I'm sure that's the majority. But not everyone, by any means. So while I think that the "they're all just closet cases" gets overplayed, there's a bunch of them.
Tom