My situation was pretty comparable. On top of that, I nearly killed myself several times. After hospitalization due to near suicide, I started to rethink my life. My choice was between coming out or dying. I think I chose appropriately.
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Bakers Who Refused Lesbian Couple A Wedding Cake WILL Have To Pay $135,000
- Thread starter Skwim
- Start date
As I've oft heard....
Being normal (straight) isn't a choice...it's what God intended.
(It can get complicated for those who say He tests us with trials like homosexuality.)
Being gay might not have been chosen, but they could still choose to be otherwise.
Choosing to then not choose to be straight is sinful.
Note: I don't expect religion to make sense, so I'm neither outraged nor offended by this.
It's been discussed.
So I asked in order to understand your view.
Stories like these make my blood boil and intensify my resolve to declaim this religion. How dare these people harm others in this way.
This is where we hear than not all Christians feel this way. So what? The message is delivered to all of them, and as many come over as can be made to. That's what matters, not whether it is 100% of them or not. The more the church is weakened, the fewer number of such people it will create.
Well, that wasn't the reason....but neither does it hurt.But mentioning that in a post boosted your count, as well as anything, eh?
Tom
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I had one attempt. Being in such an emotional black hole is bad I don't even wish upon those who do insist it is a choice and we just need to choose better. It would help them understand, but the emotional pain and anguish is excruciating.
We still only choose things from what we desire.
To repurpose a line from Penn Jillette's "This I Believe" essay: I have sex with all the men I want... it's just that "all the men I want" is zero.
To call homosexuality a choice implies that the fodder for choice - desire - is present.
And this is what I got at before: someone with same-sex attraction who does his best to repress that attraction and live as if he's straight would be justified in believing that other people could do that, too. And if he's convinced that what he's doing is reasonable instead of cruel, he's likely to believe that it would be reasonable, not cruel, to get other LGBT people to do like he did.
Fair enough. Maybe I'm expecting too much by assuming that people who believe in Young Earth Creationism would be deterred by the realization that one of their opinions is completely counter to established fact as well as their own experience.
I think you are troubled by unreasonably high expectations for humans.
Political and religious leaders who benefit from keeping people worked up over non-issues. Who use the "divide and conquer" strategy to keep otherwise well meaning people's attention focused on something other than what the leadership folks are really getting up to.
Ironic, isn't it? People get all worked up about gay people wanting to get married, and desperate women getting abortions. But they don't seem much interested in the social problems that are really causing the damage to the family and society. Heterosexual parents getting divorced is a huge disaster for the family, and especially the children. Where's the outrage? Where's the attempts to prevent divorces through legislation and Constitutional amendment? Nowhere! And Jesus was pretty clear about that one.
Or neglectful child raising techniques. I don't mean only the teenaged unwed mothers raising kids on welfare. I am including the better off kids being raised largely by day care and TV, public school and the internet, because both Mom and Dad are out working for a paycheck in order to afford the day care and TV and internet, the extra car needed, the fast food and processed crap needed because nobody has time or skills to actually cook a balanced meal three times a day.
Oh yeah, I am way conservative when it comes to my opinions about how the Christian nation I Iive in is run. Especially families. Far more so than most of the Christian people around here.
Check out my custom user title for a clue about that.
Seriously, why do people get so riled up about gay people and abortion when there are so many important things to deal with?
Tom
leibowde84
Veteran Member
Neither is sexual orientation. Homosexual activity is not a prerequisite for being gay. Is every straight person not straight until they have sex? And there is no moral implication for sexual orientation, as it is not something one can control.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
They willfully and deliberately broke the law.
If it's that big of a deal to them, they should have chosen a different career path.
You don’t understand the difference?
- both the Christian baker and the Muslim store owner have the right to sell or not sell whatever products and services they see fit.
- both the Christian baker and the Muslim store owner must sell those products and services equitably, without discriminating against any of their customers on the basis of a protected class.
The Christian baker doesn’t have to sell same-sex cake toppers, but she can’t refuse to sell her cakes to gay people. The Muslim store owner doesn’t have to sell pork, but she can’t refuse to sell her halal beef jerky to Christians.
It’s the exact same standard. Now do you get it?
@Light777 - @Shadow Wolf is right. They voluntarily chose to sell wedding cakes to the public. All the law says, effectively, is “all right: if you’re going to sell to the public, then sell to the whole public.”
If they think the law is too burdensome for them, they can adjust their business accordingly. For instance, a bakery that only sells pies, cookies, and bread would never have to make a cake for a same-sex wedding.
... Or they could go into a completely different line of work. The choice is theirs; their own free choices are what brought them into conflict with the law.
Or, they can just get the hell out of this country. We believe in freedom.
If they want to do something else, Russia and Saudi Arabia are options.
Tom
They were free to refuse, but not to escape the consequences of breaking the law.
The law did the right thing by not facilitating illegal bigotry.
To not be punished for breaking the law is wrong. Doesn't the Bible instruct its adherents to submit to the governing authority, which is God given?
- "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."- Romans 13:1-2
That is correct.
As it should be. The matters aren't analogous as has already been explained to you, so they should each be judged by the appropriate standard. Lawful actions should be treated one way, and illegal ones another.
The world is filled with double standards. They are only a problem when they are irrationally discriminatory, such as that unmarried opposite sex couples can marry assuming that they have achieved majority status or the age of consent, and aren't already married to somebody else, but that same sex couples can never do that. That is an unfair, irrational, and discriminatory double standard
On the other hand, double standards can be rational and fair such as the double standard for selling liquor to adults and children. For adults, it is legal. For children, illegal. That's a double standard, a reasonable form of discrimination, and a perfectly rational policy.
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The Muslim store does not sell pork or beer to anyone. The bakery sells wedding cakes to anyone ... except those they do not approve of. That is the double standard.
I wonder (it may already have been asked): are the judges gay?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Why do you think that would have made a difference? The bakers were punished for more than just their initial action. They harassed the couple after the fact. They went out of their way to do so. The punishment was not unfair.
Are you talking about the lesbian couple, the bakers, the judges, or the people who made the death threats against the lesbian couple?