Basis for Trusting Muhammad?

[Tumah]

Some can change the writtings then you learn false things later, while when people are used to learn by heart all the Book when you change it they know it.
It's something we are used to do since the Prophet and only in arabic, that's why we all have the same Quran.

You can have the same think when it is learned by heart until it was first written down. Then everyone accepted they made a mistake and used the one written down instead.

I don't understand, who are the honests here ?

That is the question. If the reason you believe Muhammad was because his enemies called him honest, what's the reason you believe the ones who made the Hadith?

Maybe i don't know enought the Scriptures.
I can't say if the Law itself changed, but i just know that some events are differents from Quran and that some laws may have been added.
Jesus said, that they teached "laws of men" and make it harder to people once they become believers which probably mean they invented laws or things like that.

That is something else altogether. Jesus was onlu a few hundred years before Muhammad and he never complained that the Scribes changed what it says in the Tawrat, he complained about how they were interpreting what it says and he complained about decrees that the Pharisees made.

 

[gnostic]

Well this wasn't a poll thread to see who would or not. But thanks for your input.

The word "trust" is just too strong a word.

 

[Augustus]

Can you tell me from the date of prophet Mohammed till the date 1300, how many tall buildings were constructed and whom was competing whom?

Literally thousands and thousands.

Go to a rich neighbourhood, look at a castle, look at a cathedral, temple or a grand mosque.

Rich people have been constructing impressive buildings for millennia, competing to show off their status. Impressive buildings tend to be larger and taller than unimpressive buildings.

Unlike you, I don't class being able to observe basic things about the world you live in as being miraculous.

With both of these hadith you are reading things which aren't there. A man trying to outdo his neighbours by building a taller house fits the hadith, yet you seem to think that it has to be a competition to construct the tallest building in the world in order to qualify.

I asked and repeat for those that can't really grasp and understand, how many great cities were destroyed from
the date of Mohammed till our days, the answer was 2 cities were ruined, hiroshima and nagasaki.

Do you have a better answer? and you have to put in account that the destruction of the cities mentioned in the hadith
isn't by God's punishment or natural disasters otherwise it'll be mentioned as so.

(Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't destroyed btw, only buildings within the blast radius of a mile or so.)

The hadith is "Great cities will be ruined and it will be as if they had not existed the day before." It specifies no particular method of destruction, nor does it rule any out.

Things that were common in the 7th C ME:

a) awareness of stories about cities being destroyed
b) beliefs that there would be violence and destruction at the 'end of days'

You seem to think that saying something that chimes with common knowledge is 'miraculous', most people set the 'miracle' bar a tiny bit higher than that though.

Anyway, if the 'prophecy' had been intended to be about modern warfare, then I doubt other signs of the hour would heavily involve the Byzantine Empire and medieval battles.

Yusayr bin Jabir said, "A red sandstorm erupted in the city of Kufah. Afterwards, a man came shouting and repeating the same words, 'O Abdullah bin Mas'ud! The hour has come.' He (Yusayr) then said that he sat up after he was leaning (on his side) and said, ''The hour will not arrive until no inheritance will be divided and no war possessions will bring about satisfaction. ''He pointed with his hands towards Ash-Sham saying, ''An enemy will gather its forces against the followers of Islam.''I said, ''Do you mean Ar-Rum? He said ''Yes.''Then, during this war, fierce fighting will occur. Muslim will ask for a volunteer expedition that will vie to die or return victorious. They will fight until the night separates them. Both sides will return to their camps not yet victorious and the expedition will perish.

Seeing as it is Olympics time at the moment, I'm going to award you the gold medal for mental gymnastics. Very impressive, well done.

 

[Pastek]

That is the question. If the reason you believe Muhammad was because his enemies called him honest, what's the reason you believe the ones who made the Hadith?

That's not what i said, and you put the man before the Book. (i don't say it's not important)

You were asking about people of nowadays which are muslims why they stay in that religion, if you look back at my answer i said the reason why we accept him as a prophet is because of the Quran.
That's the first reason. It's not because this or that one said good things about him.
I've learned later about Muhammad but i accepted before the Quran.

Some people don't like Moses , yet you accept him, there must be a reason. The Book ? Something in your heart ? You have your reason.

So that people say good or bad about a person (Muhammad, Moses etc) it's not what determine your faith.

You need to analyze yourself what he brought and what kind of person you think he was.

 

[Tumah]

That's not what i said, and you put the man before the Book. (i don't say it's not important)

You were asking about people of nowadays which are muslims why they stay in that religion, if you look back at my answer i said the reason why we accept him as a prophet is because of the Quran.

I've learned later about Muhammad but i accepted before the Quran.

You'll have to forgive me. The past 11 pages, a lot of people wrote a lot of things and its hard to remember what was said and who said what for each person.

What is it about the Qur'an that you feel testifies about Muhammad's status as a prophet, more so than other books testifying about their authors' prophetic status?

That's the first reason. It's not because this or that one said good things about him.

Some people don't like Moses , yet you accept him, there must be a reason. The Book ? Something in your heart ? You have your reason

So that people say good or bad about a person (Muhammad, Moses etc) it's not what determine your faith.

You need to analyze yourself what he brought and what kind of person you think he was.

Its true that I have my reason, but its very different than yours. And I'm trying to find a reason why those of us that don't believe Muhammad should believe him more than anyone else.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If you believe in the Qur'an because Muhammad was trustworthy, then why don't you believe in the Bab, who was trustworthy as well?

You need to read the Quran to understand what we like in it.

It's difficult to answer to you if you don't read it, because it's a matter of faith. People believe in the Quran cause they believe it can only comes from God.
So the Quran is the most important here, then we can discuss about Muhammad.
But as it was said , it was a truthworthy person, kind and honnest so this was also the carateristics of previous prophets, but you need to see what he brought that made us believe in him, not just his charisma etc

Anything wrong in believing a wise man's advice rather than unproven prophetship from an unproven God?Really, I thought it was Bahaullah said that. "No manifestation of God for the next 800 years".

I like to add some clarification here, since this is somewhat relates to Bahai Faith.


It is true that according to Hadithes Muhammad said that, after Him, there will be no prophet.

This statement of Muhammad in Bahai view, is related to immidiate successorship after Muhammad.
In another words, Muhammad, did not say, there will not come any other Messengers or Prophets of God, for ever, but He was speaking about immidiate successorship after Himself.
For example, very soon after Moses, there came a number of Jewish Prophets, who were the successor of Moses. Muhammad said there wont be of such Prophets in Islam after Him.
In fact there are many verses in Quran that talks about future Messngers of God, and also, Books to be revealed for every period.

As regarding the Bab, He revealed a Book, with Surrahs Like Quran. Eventhough He was born in Persia and was not learned in Arabic and was only 25 years old, He revealed a new Book, just like Quran, with the same Arabic style as a proof.

 

[Tumah]

I like to add some clarification here, since this is somewhat relates to Bahai Faith.


It is true that according to Hadithes Muhammad said that, after Him, there will be no prophet.

This statement of Muhammad in Bahai view, is related to immidiate successorship after Muhammad.
In another words, Muhammad, did not say, there will not come any other Messengers or Prophets of God, for ever, but He was speaking about immidiate successorship after Himself.
For example, very soon after Moses, there came a number of Jewish Prophets, who were the successor of Moses. Muhammad said there wont be of such Prophets in Islam after Him.
In fact there are many verses in Quran that talks about future Messngers of God, and also, Books to be revealed for every period.

In other words, what you are saying, is that perhaps Muslims misinterpret what the Qur'an meant.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

In other words, what you are saying, is that perhaps Muslims misinterpret what the Qur'an meant.

Well, not only i say that. But there are Hadithes after Hadith from Muhammad as well as some verses of Quran, that the Muslims will go astray, and that there is time for every people. For Muslims, according to Hadith and Quran, the period that the people of Islam will keep in the right path, is 1000 years.

 

[FearGod]

That's a good reason to believe Nostradamus too though. So why not?

Do i have to repeat what i had said?
Nostradamus predicted that the world will end on the year 1999, but here we are, still alive.

That is definitely true. I assume All-h wouldn't have any problem with someone not believing Muhamad was his prophet because of that reason too. Do you agree?

I am not Allah to decide, i don't know.

 

[FearGod]

Literally thousands and thousands.

Go to a rich neighbourhood, look at a castle, look at a cathedral, temple or a grand mosque.

Rich people have been constructing impressive buildings for millennia, competing to show off their status. Impressive buildings tend to be larger and taller than unimpressive buildings.

Unlike you, I don't class being able to observe basic things about the world you live in as being miraculous.

With both of these hadith you are reading things which aren't there. A man trying to outdo his neighbours by building a taller house fits the hadith, yet you seem to think that it has to be a competition to construct the tallest building in the world in order to qualify.



(Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't destroyed btw, only buildings within the blast radius of a mile or so.)

The hadith is "Great cities will be ruined and it will be as if they had not existed the day before." It specifies no particular method of destruction, nor does it rule any out.

Things that were common in the 7th C ME:

a) awareness of stories about cities being destroyed
b) beliefs that there would be violence and destruction at the 'end of days'

You seem to think that saying something that chimes with common knowledge is 'miraculous', most people set the 'miracle' bar a tiny bit higher than that though.

Anyway, if the 'prophecy' had been intended to be about modern warfare, then I doubt other signs of the hour would heavily involve the Byzantine Empire and medieval battles.

Yusayr bin Jabir said, "A red sandstorm erupted in the city of Kufah. Afterwards, a man came shouting and repeating the same words, 'O Abdullah bin Mas'ud! The hour has come.' He (Yusayr) then said that he sat up after he was leaning (on his side) and said, ''The hour will not arrive until no inheritance will be divided and no war possessions will bring about satisfaction. ''He pointed with his hands towards Ash-Sham saying, ''An enemy will gather its forces against the followers of Islam.''I said, ''Do you mean Ar-Rum? He said ''Yes.''Then, during this war, fierce fighting will occur. Muslim will ask for a volunteer expedition that will vie to die or return victorious. They will fight until the night separates them. Both sides will return to their camps not yet victorious and the expedition will perish.

Seeing as it is Olympics time at the moment, I'm going to award you the gold medal for mental gymnastics. Very impressive, well done.

I don't know why many are annoyed with Islam, we believe Islam is the best way of life for us and we trust
and we believe with no doubt about the afterlife and the judgement day and that our life here doesn't worth
so much compared to the eternal life.

You have your own path and your own way of life and we have ours, to us our religion
and to you your own religion if you have one.

 

[FearGod]

I like to add some clarification here, since this is somewhat relates to Bahai Faith.


It is true that according to Hadithes Muhammad said that, after Him, there will be no prophet.

This statement of Muhammad in Bahai view, is related to immidiate successorship after Muhammad.
In another words, Muhammad, did not say, there will not come any other Messengers or Prophets of God, for ever, but He was speaking about immidiate successorship after Himself.
For example, very soon after Moses, there came a number of Jewish Prophets, who were the successor of Moses. Muhammad said there wont be of such Prophets in Islam after Him.
In fact there are many verses in Quran that talks about future Messngers of God, and also, Books to be revealed for every period.

As regarding the Bab, He revealed a Book, with Surrahs Like Quran. Eventhough He was born in Persia and was not learned in Arabic and was only 25 years old, He revealed a new Book, just like Quran, with the same Arabic style as a proof.

What was the religion of Baha'ullah?

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Actually, according to Judaism, a large number DID.

Not the generation that left Egypt, though. It's that entire "take 40 years for a year long journey" kind of stuff.

How many times was a person or even God placed as being central to an event whereas the reality might be very different, and then we have to add the subjective aspect into the formula as well?

Indeed. I suspect highly that Sodom and Gomorrah and the Plagues of Egypt are metaphors for military operations.

That is not correct.

"Divine judgment by God was then passed upon Sodom and Gomorrah and two neighboring cities, which were completely consumed by fire and brimstone."

I was guessing "sarcasm".

Is it great cities?

Go over there and look around and tell us if you think it is.

Because the Prophet Muhammad told us there's no more prophet after him.

And that's what Christianity thought. Not sure about Judaism. Each Abrahamic religion simply thinks it's the last until the new guy shows up.

the answer was 2 cities were ruined, hiroshima and nagasaki.

But they are thriving today and there are countless other cities laid to waste that no longer exist, period.

Can you tell me from the date of prophet Mohammed till the date 1300, how many tall buildings were constructed and whom was competing whom?

Lots. What is your definition of "tall"? Even the ancients could handle buildings 100s of feet high.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

What was the religion of Baha'ullah?

I think This is a good question, but i do not see it is related to this thread. You can ask that question in Bahai directory.

 

[metis]

Indeed. I suspect highly that Sodom and Gomorrah and the Plagues of Egypt are metaphors for military operations.

This is one reason why I cannot accept the Exodus as being historical or even theologically factual. It puts God in the position of actually being genocidal by "hardening Pharaoh's heart". To me, it's far more likely to be a myth, possibly based on some real history, where God was likely thrown in to show how He favors Israel. After all, the writing that we do have in Exodus appears to have been written centuries after said event.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't know why many are annoyed with Islam, we believe Islam is the best way of life for us and we trust
and we believe with no doubt about the afterlife and the judgement day and that our life here doesn't worth
so much compared to the eternal life.

Don't you think you answered your own question here?

 

[rosends]

Not the generation that left Egypt, though. It's that entire "take 40 years for a year long journey" kind of stuff.

According to Judaism those from that generation who did were males between the ages of 20 and 60. No women died and no children or people older than 60,.

 

[Pastek]

What is it about the Qur'an that you feel testifies about Muhammad's status as a prophet, more so than other books testifying about their authors' prophetic status?

When i've read the Book it feels on my heart it was from God, i've find it very powerful. Before that i was a believer but not as much as later.
For exemple just after i've read it i wanted to do the prayer which i've never wanted to do before and i searched about who really was Muhammad after that.
Before i was just a believer like i guess anyone who grew up in a family may follow the religion of his parents.
I was ok with accepting a unique God, i had no problem in general with prophets so it's not like i wasn't really believing in it but it's different when you read the Book and it seems God is talking to you.

Its true that I have my reason, but its very different than yours. And I'm trying to find a reason why those of us that don't believe Muhammad should believe him more than anyone else.

What is your reason if it's possible to know ?

What i'm trying to explain is the Book is what confirms the prophet Muhammad.

If the Quran wasn't that great it wouldn't have this impact on people.

 

[FearGod]

Don't you think you answered your own question here?

I am not annoyed with Islam and if you don't believe what i do believe then where's the problem?

 

[Augustus]

Nostradamus predicted that the world will end on the year 1999, but here we are, still alive.

*heroically resists urge to point out that here we are, still alive, 600 years after the end of the Byzantine Empire. The same Byzantine Empire that is a necessary feature in above poster's personal view of the eschaton*

 

[LuisDantas]

I am not annoyed with Islam and if you don't believe what i do believe then where's the problem?

I will take that as a "No", then.

Allow me:

I don't know why many are annoyed with Islam,

Personally, I am annoyed by any group or movement that makes a point of giving too much weight to god-beliefs.

we believe Islam is the best way of life for us

Everyone has his or her own ideas about what is best for themselves.

Not all of those ideas involve legalism, nationalism or quasi-nationalism, reliance on dogma supposed to be of undeniable validity for 14 centuries or more, or theocentrism.

and we trust and we believe with no doubt about the afterlife and the judgement day

Neither of which are ever advisable beliefs for anyone to hold.

and that our life here doesn't worth so much compared to the eternal life.

It shows.

I am personally not sure why people even think of any afterlife, let alone value those thoughts. But the evidence is rather clear that those are not particularly safe ideas. They are all but certain to lead to severe lapses of judgement and often enough to all-out tragedy.

Case in point, your own trailing words:

if you don't believe what i do believe then where's the problem?

There would be no problem if we all lived in our own fantasy worlds with no reciprocal influence or interaction.

Maybe your afterlife is like that. But that is entirely speculative, while this world and this life that we know of exists under quite serious links of mutual need, influence and interference.