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Basis for Trusting Muhammad?

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I don't know why many are annoyed with Islam, we believe Islam is the best way of life for us and we trust
and we believe with no doubt about the afterlife and the judgement day and that our life here doesn't worth
so much compared to the eternal life.

You have your own path and your own way of life and we have ours, to us our religion
and to you your own religion if you have one.

It depends what you mean here, by 'Islam'.

On one hand, to me, Islam, was a guidence that came from God, through Muhammad, and the 11th Imams of Shia. I personally love that original Islam that had come as a dispenation to last 1000 years.

On the other hand, today, the world of Islam, is seen mostly, as different groups, such as ISIS, Taliban, Asad's military, Egypt's Ikhvan-almuslimin, Iran's Islamic government,....and many others that are engaged with war with each other, and at the same time, they claim, their Islam is the best way of life, and all others should become Muslims or they are Kaffar. This worldwide community, as a whole, is seen as Islam today. Do you think, this could be the reason it is annoying?
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
And that's what Christianity thought. Not sure about Judaism. Each Abrahamic religion simply thinks it's the last until the new guy shows up.

Jesus said to be prudent if someone comes as a prophet but never said there won't be others after him.

I like to add some clarification here, since this is somewhat relates to Bahai Faith.

It is true that according to Hadithes Muhammad said that, after Him, there will be no prophet.

This statement of Muhammad in Bahai view, is related to immidiate successorship after Muhammad.

So this is your argument ? You reject what Muhammad said in reality.

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you.
I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.


http://www.introductiontoislam.org/prophetlastsermon.shtml

Abu Huraira that the Prophet (pbup) said:
Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number.

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/71

"One of the features of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that are mentioned in the ancient books is that between his shoulders was the Seal of Prophethood."

https://islamqa.info/en/22725

33.40 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

More than hadiths there's the Quran so Allah said it too.
Here it's translated as "last" but the arab word is "khatam" : Seal.


Plus it was said :

3.19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.
3.89 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

So if you choose another religion and call yourself Bahai, it's up to you.
If you accept another prophet while Muhammad and Allah said there won't be another one, it's also up to you.


We have already discussed this before.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
.

So this is your argument ? You reject what Muhammad said in reality.

O People, NO PROPHET OR MESSENGER WILL COME AFTER ME AND NO NEW FAITH WILL BE BORN. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you.
I am leaving you with the Book of God (the QUR'AN*) and my SUNNAH (the life style and the behavioral mode of the Prophet), if you follow them you will never go astray.


http://www.introductiontoislam.org/prophetlastsermon.shtml

If you take your time, and look for the original Arabic of the above statement, you will find out, this is an incorrect translation. It never says, there wont be any Messenger or new faith. This is what is added by the translator.

Abu Huraira that the Prophet (pbup) said:
Banu Isra'il were ruled over by the Prophets. When one Prophet died, another succeeded him; but after me there is no prophet and there will be caliphs and they will be quite large in number.

http://sunnah.com/muslim/33/71
Yes. This is about immidate successorship after Muhammad.


"One of the features of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) that are mentioned in the ancient books is that between his shoulders was the Seal of Prophethood."

https://islamqa.info/en/22725

Yes. Muhammad is the seal of prophets.

In Arabic, this term is ' khaatam'. Which literally means, an ornament or stone on a ring, which could be used to stamp or seal a document.
When you stamp a document, you are confirming it. It does not mean, later you will not add another document, or write another Book. Does it?
So, it is not clear, what this verse mean. In Quran, there are two types of verses; Clear and Figurative (Mutishabihat). According to Quran 3:7, only God knows the meaning of Mutishabihat. This verse, is one of those unclear verses, since it can be interpreted in different ways.
Now that Bahaullah came, Allah revealed its interpretation, and now we know it did not mean last Revelation.
33.40 Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.

The verse should be Translated, Seal of Prophets.

More than hadiths there's the Quran so Allah said it too.
Here it's translated as "last" but the arab word is "khatam" : Seal.


Plus it was said :

3.19 Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam.
3.89 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

So if you choose another religion and call yourself Bahai, it's up to you.
If you accept another prophet while Muhammad and Allah said there won't be another one, it's also up to you.


We have already discussed this before.

Note that, Islam, in this verse, means Submission to God. It does not mean Muhammadism.

We did not call ourself Bahai. We believe God did.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
It depends what you mean here, by 'Islam'.

On one hand, to me, Islam, was a guidence that came from God, through Muhammad, and the 11th Imams of Shia. I personally love that original Islam that had come as a dispenation to last 1000 years.

On the other hand, today, the world of Islam, is seen mostly, as different groups, such as ISIS, Taliban, Asad's military, Egypt's Ikhvan-almuslimin, Iran's Islamic government,....and many others that are engaged with war with each other, and at the same time, they claim, their Islam is the best way of life, and all others should become Muslims or they are Kaffar. This worldwide community, as a whole, is seen as Islam today. Do you think, this could be the reason it is annoying?

Division in Islam was already prophesied and the ISIS, the khawarij already known to happen and are
actually signs for the real appearance of the Mahdi and the 2nd coming of Jesus.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I may be mistaken, but it seems to me as though you are looking at Islam as an Eastern religion: a wise man giving over his musings called the Qur'an, rather than a revelation from All-h.
I believe all of the worlds major scriptures have been altered after the founder of the religion died. It's one of the reasons I'm one of those "spiritual but not religious" types. Still, I believe the truth can be found in the scriptures even though I don't accept that the scriptures are inerrant or perfect. And besides, even if they were, we have ordinary human beings reading them and interpreting them to mean what the reader wants them to mean as exemplified by the US Civil War where the North and South found justification that slavery was evil or the will of God depending on which side you were on.

And when I come across something which is common to all religions such as the Golden Rule, I take it as a true statement from the Lord. This is why I feel very simpatico with Prayers of of the sufi Hazrat Inayat Khan such as this excerpt from his "Salat prayer":
Most gracious Lord, Master, Messiah, and Savior of humanity, we greet Thee with all humility. Thou art the First Cause and the Last Effect, the Divine Light and the Spirit of Guidance, Alpha and Omega. Thy Light is in all forms, Thy Love in all beings: in a loving mother, in a kind father, in an innocent child, in a helpful friend, in an inspiring teacher.

Allow us to recognize Thee in all Thy holy names and forms; as Rama, as Krishna, as Shiva, as Buddha. Let us know Thee as Abraham, as Solomon, as Zarathushtra, as Moses, as Jesus, as Mohammed, and in many other names and forms, known and unknown to the world.
...



 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Division in Islam was already prophesied and the ISIS, the khawarij already known to happen and are
actually signs for the real appearance of the Mahdi and the 2nd coming of Jesus.
A while ago I read this prophecy of Muhammad and looking around the world today, it sure seems to be happening now:

Men will be liars towards the end of the world; and will relate such stories as neither you nor your fathers ever heard. Then avoid them, that they may not lead you astray and throw you into contention and strife.

The time is near in which nothing will remain of Islam but its name, and of the Kuran but its mere appearance, and the mosques of Muslims will be destitute of of knowledge and worship; and the learned will be the worst people under the heavens; and contention and strife will issue from them, and it will return upon themselves.

Ye follower of Muhammad, I swear by the Lord, if ye did but know what I know of the future state, verily ye would laugh little and cry much.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
If you take your time, and look for the original Arabic of the above statement, you will find out, this is an incorrect translation. It never says, there wont be any Messenger or new faith. This is what is added by the translator.

I've find it in arabic :

أيها الناس، إنه لا نبي بعدي

http://www.alminbar.net/alkhutab/khutbaa.asp?mediaURL=5934

In Arabic, this term is ' khaatam'. Which literally means, an ornament or stone on a ring, which could be used to stamp or seal a document.
When you stamp a document, you are confirming it. It does not mean, later you will not add another document, or write another Book. Does it?

It means here it's the end of the prophethood.
When it arranges you, you understand clearly the Quran but when you decide it means something else then "only Allah knows the meaning" "in our view Muhammad means this and that" .
No the verses and hadiths are very clear. We know Muhammad is a prophet as it was already said many times in the Quranbut here the exact word is khatam so it was choose for a particular meaning.

Are you ignoring the previous hadith by the way ? Abu Huraira was a companion of Muhammad he was of the sahaba.

Now that Bahaullah came, Allah revealed its interpretation, and now we know it did not mean last Revelation.

Allah said to follow Muhammad and the Quran and Muhammad said that again in many hadiths.
We have perfectly understood Quran before Bahaullah but thanks.

The verse should be Translated, Seal of Prophets.

I know i said the word was "seal" as i know arabic and knew you gonna write a chapter about this.
Maybe it's translated as "seal" in other versions i took the first english version i saw.

Note that, Islam, in this verse, means Submission to God. It does not mean Muhammadism.

Don't know what you mean but you are free to prefer following Bahaullah than Muhammad.

We did not call ourself Bahai. We believe God did.

Ah i thought Allah called us muslim and that our religion is Islam ... ok
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I've find it in arabic :

أيها الناس، إنه لا نبي بعدي

http://www.alminbar.net/alkhutab/khutbaa.asp?mediaURL=5934
Yes. As i said, in arabic version it does not say, no Messenger or new faith. It says, No Prophet after me. Do you now See the mistake in Translation?
How do you know, He was not speaking about immidiate successorship?


It means here it's the end of the prophethood.
How do you know, seal of prophets, means, end of prophethood?

As you know, seal does not necessarily mean, last, correct? In some of the Islamic and Arabic litrature, it is said Imam Ali was the seal of believers.


When it arranges you, you understand clearly the Quran but when you decide it means something else then "only Allah knows the meaning" "in our view Muhammad means this and that" .
I do not think you really understood what i said.

If you look at the Context of Surrah and the verse which says, Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, does the Context have anything to do with the finality of Prophethood? Just look at the verses before and after it. Does it even talk about finality of Book or Revelation?



Show me a single verse in Quran, that if anyone after Muhammad claimed to a Revelation, He is a Liar. Can you? If God wanted to say, there is no messenger or Prophet after Muhammad, He could say so, very clearly. Why just saying 'Seal of Prophets', which can have several meanings, and not clear which one was intended?

Moreover, do you ignor all Hadithes and verses of Quran that propmises of future Messengers and Books?

No the verses and hadiths are very clear. We know Muhammad is a prophet as it was already said many times in the Quranbut here the exact word is khatam so it was choose for a particular meaning.
Yes, Muhammad is Prophet. But what is the parricular meaning of 'Khatam', in this verse, and how do you know?

Are you ignoring the previous hadith by the way ? Abu Huraira was a companion of Muhammad he was of the sahaba.

No, i am not ignoring. I don't think you understood my explanation.

It seems, you are mixing the Hadiths that says, there is no Prophet after Muhammad, with the verse of Quran, that says, Seal of Prophets.
When Muhammad said, no prophet after Me, he was talking about, immidiately after Him. He did not say, there will never be another Prophet, for ever. If you claim, He said 'for ever' there wont be a prophet, please bring a Hadith as your evidence.

Allah said to follow Muhammad and the Quran and Muhammad said that again in many hadiths.
We have perfectly understood Quran before Bahaullah but thanks.

No body is forcing you to believe in Baha'ullah.

I know i said the word was "seal" as i know arabic and knew you gonna write a chapter about this.
Maybe it's translated as "seal" in other versions i took the first english version i saw.

Have you looked at different dictionaries to see what Khatam means, in classical Arabic?

Ah i thought Allah called us muslim and that our religion is Islam ... ok

Here you are assuming Allah is not capable of changing Muslims with another people. There are indeed verses of Quran and Hadith, that God will change Muslims with another people.
 
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Shad

Veteran Member
Is it great cities?

Define great with Islamic sources. Great can mean standard of living, size (area covered), population, wealth, etc.

When one other hadith says that people will compete in constructing the taller buildings

People were already competing. As per Augustus there were cathedrals, towers, castles, etc. In antiquity there were the pyramids, temples, palaces, etc.

then we may imagine how the great cities will look like.

You imagination is not a valid source nor a method of interpretation. It has already been influenced by modern structures so your idea of tall becomes an anachronism. You also open the floodgates by allow imagination to guide not just this interpretation but any interpretation of the Quran. One can use their imagination to dismiss Islam or to claim this is a false prophecy. More so imagining something does not make it real or even viable. I can imagine a 200 story wood building but in reality such a structure will never exist as wood is not capable of supporting such a building.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Define great with Islamic sources. Great can mean standard of living, size (area covered), population, wealth, etc.



People were already competing. As per Augustus there were cathedrals, towers, castles, etc. In antiquity there were the pyramids, temples, palaces, etc.



You imagination is not a valid source nor a method of interpretation. It has already been influenced by modern structures so your idea of tall becomes an anachronism. You also open the floodgates by allow imagination to guide not just this interpretation but any interpretation of the Quran. One can use their imagination to dismiss Islam or to claim this is a false prophecy. More so imagining something does not make it real or even viable. I can imagine a 200 story wood building but in reality such a structure will never exist as wood is not capable of supporting such a building.

If competition in constructing the taller buildings was known to people at that time then how
they didn't ask the prophet that we are already competing in constructing the taller buildings.

When the prophet mentioned a future event then that understood not yet known to happen at his time otherwise why a prophecy.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
I think This is a good question, but i do not see it is related to this thread. You can ask that question in Bahai directory.

Why you can't tell here what was his religion, he was a Muslim and not Bahai.
only his followers are named after him, it was invented.
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
So Muhammad PBUH is saying there is One God worthy of worship. Christians and jews disbelieving in him means they disbelieve automatically in all prophets such as Abraham Moses and Jesus. Their message was one.

That doesn't follow because Muhammad rewrote Jesus' character when he wrote the Quran. You're saying Christians disbelieve in Jesus; not true. They don't believe in your version of Jesus.
 

Pastek

Sunni muslim
Yes. As i said, in arabic version it does not say, no Messenger or new faith. It says, No Prophet after me. Do you now See the mistake in Translation?
How do you know, He was not speaking about immidiate successorship?

Yes, yes you play with the word "prophet" and "messenger" like the Ahmadiyas.

If you look at the Context of Surrah and the verse which says, Muhammad is the seal of Prophets, does the Context have anything to do with the finality of Prophethood? Just look at the verses before and after it. Does it even talk about finality of Book or Revelation?

The Quran is the final Book, Islam is the last religion and the only religion accepted by God now. This is what Allah said in the Quran.

Allah said to follow Muhammad and the Quran yet now you say we need to follow someone else and another book ...

Ok then tell me what your prophet bring that we need to know about. What Allah didn't say to Muhammad that He needs to tell to Bahalullah.

Is it not evident that almost nobody heard about him ? I heard about him when i came in this forum.
My mother never heard about your religion like all my familly and probably almost all my friends and they will probably never heard about it like majority of the world.

What is that unnoticed prophet that Allah would send to people ? If Allah wanted to say something He just would have said it to Muhammad, the message would have reached us.

Show me a single verse in Quran, that if anyone after Muhammad claimed to a Revelation, He is a Liar. Can you?

That's why the prophet of Ahmadiya proclamed to be a prophet, and the prophet/messiah of Nation of Islam did the same... and by the way after Muhammad many proclamed to be prophets or the messiah. Prophet Muhammad said that will happened in some hadiths and of course some even said they were the anti-christ.

Here you are assuming Allah is not capable of changing Muslims with another people. There are indeed verses of Quran and Hadith, that God will change Muslims with another people.

No, Allah said he is capable to change us, he didn't not say He will do it.

Do you think that Allah changed us for you ? That's why you don't call yourself muslim ?

Or are you saying you are not part of Islam so not part of Muhammad ummah ?
 

The Emperor of Mankind

Currently the galaxy's spookiest paraplegic
If you think that the prophesies were fabricated later on, then that can't be true because many several
hadiths also foretold things that happened later on, a recent one was the blockade on Iraq then Syria
as a sign of the coming of the last hour plus the destruction of Syria(Sham) and the war in Yemen.

The above is a non sequitur because this:

"If you think that the prophesies were fabricated later on then that can't be true because"

does not logically follow from the rest of that quoted paragraph. Just because some of the prophecies about, say, "the blockade on Iraq then Syria" came true (I'm assuming for a second that they have) does not mean that the 'prophecies' concerning the conquest of Jerusalem and Persia were exactly that: prophecies. Remember, the hadith were oral tradition for the longest time. There's literally no way to verify when these 'prophecies' became part of the tradition before the hadith were written down. Occam's Razor would indicate that these 'prophecies' regarding the conquests of Jerusalem & Persia were added to the oral hadith after the events in question. Prophecy is also a very poor guide to the future because you only understand it when the events are already upon you.


All these events plus the return of the Jews from all over the world to Jerusalem, i don't think it's all about coincidences.

Not much of a prophecy since the Jews would likely be inclined to return to land they perceive as belonging to them. That's as banal as prophesying someone will go to market to buy food because there is no food at home.


Some use him as a tool than anybody can make prophecies, so prophets and their prophecies are just coincidences
or interpreted in such away as to match one event

It's a valid comparison because anybody can make prophecies. Prophecies are only guesses (no matter how educated) that come true. As to your claim that Nostradamus prophesied the world would end in 1999: he didn't. His writings were interpreted as saying this by some people. Others have interpreted the same writings and come up with different apocalyptic years. All have been wrong.
 

MD

qualiaphile
There's no basis for trusting him outside of faith. Unfounded faith. Faith which has lead to countless wars and genocides in the name of an Arabian warlord.

The scientific miracles have been debunked. The linguistic miracle is a joke of an argument. The book has errors. It's rather obvious it's not some eternal truth.
 

sovietchild

Well-Known Member
The book has errors.

Did you read the book?

Faith which has lead to countless wars and genocides in the name of an Arabian warlord..

1. Americans and British has been digging/fighting oil in Arabia/Persia since 1915 or so. So I hope you not talking about those wars.

2. Who had more wars? China, Europe/America, Africa or Arabia/Persia?
 
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meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
If you can tell how that is related to the topic of this thread, then i will sure answer your question
Why Muhammad the profit sent Fayruz al-Daylami to assassinate him under the supervision and planning of Qays ibn Hubaira. (totally disagree with doing something like that) But anyways. mirroring: something about a donkey/Balaam/Balaak.. like you know "prophet" to "prophet"... with how the tea pot calls the kettle black? Often times in a community where anyone calls themselves a prophet I look at who they fight with. If prophecy is able to be fulfilled.. In my own lifetime; I say I kill you; I kill you, and then I send someone to supposedly do that, Im a "prophet".. I'm going to an interview later and I go... I'm go .. Someone right it down even after... it happens.. I also go and part took in doing the action. I don't think we need prophets then.. maybe its not a prophecy... It's listed as such but its an action... from the representation how prophecy is defined here. of what "I" do and my one planning action. Those are the actions I did...
 

meghanwaterlillies

Well-Known Member
Why Muhammad the profit sent Fayruz al-Daylami to assassinate him under the supervision and planning of Qays ibn Hubaira. (totally disagree with doing something like that) But anyways. mirroring: something about a donkey/Balaam/Balaak.. like you know "prophet" to "prophet"... with how the tea pot calls the kettle black? Often times in a community where anyone calls themselves a prophet I look at who they fight with. If prophecy is able to be fulfilled.. In my own lifetime; I say I kill you; I kill you, and then I send someone to supposedly do that, Im a "prophet".. I'm going to an interview later and I go... I go .. Someone right it down even after... it happens.. I also go and part took in doing the action. I don't think we need prophets then.. maybe its not a prophecy... It's listed as such but its an action... from the representation how prophecy is defined here. of what "I" do and my one planning action. Those are the actions I did...
and should that action be judged?
 
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