Beaten to death with a brick for opposing arranged marriage

[Badran]

Actually, if you follow the link for that quote, you'll see that whoever it was at Islamic Voice who wrote that answer specifically says that a girl should not be married off without her consent or before she's able to assume the responsibilities. But he still says the marriage is valid.

How so? did he explain why?

I can't see how its possible to consider it valid since the requirements were not met. Is he talking about this particular case having some exceptional thing that makes it so or in general?

 

[Smoke]

How so? did he explain why?

I can't see how its possible to consider it valid since the requirements were not met. Is he talking about this particular case having some exceptional thing that makes it so or in general?

He doesn't cite any authorities. I will give the guy credit for saying this is not the way things should be done; he actually tells the father to either get the girl a divorce or take her back home till she reaches puberty and then let her make up her own mind. He doesn't say to leave her with her husband.

But it still troubles me that he considers the marriage valid at all. And then there are the countless less fortunate girls who are forced to stay with their husbands.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of scholars say you can't have a minimum age for marriage because Sharia imposes no minimum age for marriage. But we all know that's bull. Sharia is, like any other law, largely a matter of interpretation, and you could just as easily rule that consent is necessary and because an eight-year-old isn't competent to give informed consent, then no such marriage is possible. The problem is that large numbers of scholars don't rule that way. They place the customary Sharia interpretation ahead of the welfare of children even though Sharia is -- in theory -- flexible enough to allow them to take care for the welfare of the children. One guy I quoted unabashedly says child marriage is necessary to preserve the rights of 13-year-old boys who want to have sex. That's just morally retarded. A grown man and religious scholar who will subject a child to an unwanted marriage and pregnancy just to gratify the desires of an adolescent boy is a monster.

 

[Badran]

He doesn't cite any authorities. I will give the guy credit for saying this is not the way things should be done; he actually tells the father to either get the girl a divorce or take her back home till she reaches puberty and then let her make up her own mind. He doesn't say to leave her with her husband.

But it still troubles me that he considers the marriage valid at all. And then there are the countless less fortunate girls who are forced to stay with their husbands.

This is very troubling indeed. Not only is the marriage not valid, but it must be enforced by the law that the daughter doesn't stay with her supposed husband, because he isn't, because she doesn't want to. And of course because she is a child, such situation is unacceptable from the start, so there is no room for what her parents want or whatever. The consent is not established either way you look at it, wether because the girl doesn't want to stay, or because she is a child, and still he didn't say it isn't valid.

What I'm seeing is that a lot of scholars say you can't have a minimum age for marriage because Sharia imposes no minimum age for marriage. But we all know that's bull. Sharia is, like any other law, largely a matter of interpretation, and you could just as easily rule that consent is necessary and because an eight-year-old isn't competent to give informed consent, then no such marriage is possible. The problem is that large numbers of scholars don't rule that way. They place the customary Sharia interpretation ahead of the welfare of children even though Sharia is -- in theory -- flexible enough to allow them to take care for the welfare of the children. One guy I quoted unabashedly says child marriage is necessary to preserve the rights of 13-year-old boys who want to have sex. That's just morally retarded. A grown man and religious scholar who will subject a child to an unwanted marriage and pregnancy just to gratify the desires of an adolescent boy is a monster.

This shows a lot, as like you said sharia law is indeed open to interpretation and flexible to argue a lot of things through it. Some of those scholars don't seem to have any problem making up rules and punishments for certain things they don't like, but yet in this situation when its most obvious they refuse to make ones.

 

[Bismillah]

Child marriages are nothing new to the world and are predominant in most underdevloped countries with large portions of its populace being illiterate and isolated from the modern world. Singling out Muslim countries is unhelpful and deceitful in that it implies an Islamic component that prompts these marriages. The truth is that in most of these countries it is highly unlikely that there would be any significant absence of child marriages without the predominance of Islam.

It is no coincidence that the same countries in Africa, Asia and the Middle East that have high rates of child marriage are those with:

• High poverty rates, birth rates and death rates
• Greater incidence of conflict and civil strife
• Lower levels of overall development, including schooling, employment, health care

Sufficient data were available to generate regional averages for young women (aged 15-24) who were married before the age of 18 in three regions 4:

• In Southern Asia, 48 per cent (nearly 10 million) of young women were married before the age of 18.
• In Africa, 42 per cent were married before turning 18.
• In Latin America and the Caribbean, 29 per cent of young women were married by age 18.

In some countries, more than half of all girls under 18 are married. Specifically, the percentage of girls (aged 15 to 19) married by age 18 is: 5

• 76 percent in Niger
• 74 per cent in the Democratic Republic of Congo
• 54 per cent in Afghanistan
• 50 per cent in India
• 51 per cent in Bangladesh

While age at marriage is generally increasing, it is not uncommon to find girls married before age 15.

• In Ethiopia and some areas of West Africa, some girls get married as early as age 7. 6
• In Bangladesh, 45 per cent of young women between 25 and 29 were married by age 15. 7
• A 1998 survey in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh found that nearly 14 per cent of girls were married between the ages of l0 and 14. 8
• In Kebbi State of northern Nigeria, the average age of marriage for girls is just over l1 years, compared to a national average of 17. 9

Child Marriage Factsheet: State of World Population 2005 - UNFPA

 

[Smoke]

Child marriages are nothing new to the world and are predominant in most underdevloped countries with large portions of its populace being illiterate and isolated from the modern world. Singling out Muslim countries is unhelpful and deceitful in that it implies an Islamic component that prompts these marriages.

We might be tempted to ask why it is that at least three-fourths of the Muslim majority countries in the world are third world spitholes in the first place, but not before we consider the depth of self-delusion it would take to believe that Islamic religious scholars making arguments from Islamic law and tradition have nothing to do with Islam.

 

[Bismillah]

but not before we consider the depth of self-delusion it would take to believe that Islamic religious scholars making arguments from Islamic law and tradition have nothing to do with Islam.

Smoke I am not delusional merely trying to bring a PoV rarely expressed within these types of threads. If you want, I can just condemn child marriages, but I don't think that would be as constructive

Those who advocate child marriages in Islamic context would still be advocating it without Islam for much the same reasons (i.e financial gains and the well being of the children). It doesn't matter whether these people speak for Islam, the reality is that child marriage would find itself in this region with or without Islam's influence.

In order to combat child marriage, it would be much more expedient and pragmatic to

Evidence shows that the more education a girl receives, the less likely she is to marry as a child. Improving access to education for both girls and boys and eliminating gender gaps in education are important strategies in ending the practice of child marriage. Legislative, programmatic and advocacy efforts to make education free and compulsory, as well as to expand Education for All programming beyond the primary level, are indicated by the strong significance of educational attainment in terms of reducing the number of girls who are married. Increasing the level of compulsory education may be one tactic to prolong the period of time when a girl is unavailable for marriage.
It is also important to capitalize on the window of opportunity created by the increasing gap in time between the onset of puberty and the time of marriage by providing substantive skills enhancing programmes and opportunities. There is a need to develop methods to protect girls at risk of child marriage and to address the concerns of girls and women who are already married by ensuring the fulfillment of their right to a full education and providing them with life skills-based training to ensure that they can earn a livelihood.

Efforts are also required to protect girls who are in union. Decreasing the pressure on young women to conceive through education and advocacy on the dangers of early motherhood should be considered. Similar consideration should be given to ways to improve access to effective contraceptive methods.

Services for survivors of domestic violence should be accessible. Outreach efforts should consider targeting women who were married before age 18 as potentially in need of assistance. Mapping child marriage levels within countries may be a useful practice for programmatic purposes when determining where to launch new prevention campaigns. It can also be used to track future progress by comparing child marriage levels at different points in time.
Further data collection and research is also required to explore the impact of child marriage on boys and men. The demand-and-supply relationship of child marriage should be qualitatively explored to illuminate dynamics, such as the reasons why households marry their children and why men prefer younger brides, in order to inform programming strategies.

Childinfo.org: Statistics by Area - Child marriage - The challenge

Quite a few of which are backed by traditional Islamic thinking such as the right of a child to an education and rejecting the view of children as mere property, something that is quite routine in countries that suffer from child marriages as the family of the bride is greedy for the endowment money.

 

[Autodidact]

Child marriages are nothing new to the world and are predominant in most underdevloped countries with large portions of its populace being illiterate and isolated from the modern world. Singling out Muslim countries is unhelpful and deceitful in that it implies an Islamic component that prompts these marriages. The truth is that in most of these countries it is highly unlikely that there would be any significant absence of child marriages without the predominance of Islam.

The ever-popular Muslim "Johnny does it too, mommy" argument. All it does is evidence a refusal to take responsibility.

You don't think that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha might have something to do with the many Muslim clerics and authorities, as well as millions of Muslims, who approve of child-marriage?

Why are so many Muslim countries underdeveloped, illiterate and isolated from the modern world?

Abibi: Islamic clerics are the ones asserting that child marriage is Islamic, and I'm way too ignorant to argue with them. In Yemen, the legislature is trying to outlaw it, and the clerics are stopping them. Don't you think Islam might have something to do with that?

 

[kai]

Child marriages are nothing new to the world and are predominant in most underdevloped countries with large portions of its populace being illiterate and isolated from the modern world. Singling out Muslim countries is unhelpful and deceitful in that it implies an Islamic component that prompts these marriages. The truth is that in most of these countries it is highly unlikely that there would be any significant absence of child marriages without the predominance of Islam.

Child Marriage Factsheet: State of World Population 2005 - UNFPA

But isn't Islam supposed to guide people? isn't it a way of life? countries without such a guide to a way of life are a different discussion arnt they?

i mean if Islam has been in a country for hundreds of years and cultural practices which are against Islamic ideals are rife then something has failed.


what i mean is if Islam is predominant then according to you child marriages or arranged marriages without the girls consent shouldn't be taking place at all because the cultural practise would have been outlawed hundreds of years ago.

 

[Wotan]

Now Kai, you know better than that. You cannot apply logic and consistent thought to supernatural religion.

The doctrine simply means whatever a qualified scholar says it means. At any given time.

Do try to remember that.

 

[kai]

Now Kai, you know better than that. You cannot apply logic and consistent thought to supernatural religion.

The doctrine simply means whatever a qualified scholar says it means. At any given time.

Do try to remember that.

Try harder i will

 

[Smoke]

Those who advocate child marriages in Islamic context would still be advocating it without Islam for much the same reasons (i.e financial gains and the well being of the children).

And Muhammad Hamzi's argument that you have to protect the "rights" of 13-year-old boys who want to have sex with little girls? Does that fall under financial gain or the well-being of the children?

Quite a few of which are backed by traditional Islamic thinking such as the right of a child to an education and rejecting the view of children as mere property, something that is quite routine in countries that suffer from child marriages as the family of the bride is greedy for the endowment money.

When peoples who have been Muslim for 1300 years are still selling their little daughters into what amounts to a lifetime of slavery and forced prostitution, and killing them if they resist, what does that tell us about the ability of Islam to shape a free and just society?

 

[BIG D]

And the Bible says gays are abominations but not all Christians go by that.

Cherry picking aside, it's still not a very good thing to overgeneralize.

I agree with you that these men are scumbags, but projecting their actions on all Muslims is a little too much.

well, they do have a lot that are willing to commit suicide, unlike Americans<>so, I'd say it's fair to generalize Muslims as far different in respecting life...Palestinians,Saudis,Afgans, Iraqis, etc<>lots of suicide bombers..cutting off heads, etc..are they more evil, no?, but different...

 

[BadBeast]

When peoples who have been Muslim for 1300 years are still selling their little daughters into what amounts to a lifetime of slavery and forced prostitution, and killing them if they resist, what does that tell us about the ability of Islam to shape a free and just society?

These points lose much of their relevence when you look at the amount of incest, child abuse, slave labour, forced prostitution, murder, sexual coercion, and spousal abuse that go on in our so called "enlightened" Western Civilisation. Only in the West, instead of happening under the dubious mandate of Religion, it happens for Profit, gain, and personal gratification.

 

[linwood]

These points lose much of their relevence when you look at the amount of incest, child abuse, slave labour, forced prostitution, murder, sexual coercion, and spousal abuse that go on in our so called "enlightened" Western Civilisation. Only in the West, instead of happening under the dubious mandate of Religion, it happens for Profit, gain, and personal gratification.

Not at all.
While these atrocities are committed in western culture they are hidden and punished when perceived.

They are most definitely not supported and promoted by our laws and religious leaders.

There is a difference, that difference is huge!

 

[BadBeast]

Not at all.
While these atrocities are committed in western culture they are hidden and punished when perceived.

They are most definitely not supported and promoted by our laws and religious leaders.

There is a difference, that difference is huge!

Not to the victims of these crimes it's not.

 

[linwood]

Not to the victims of these crimes it's not.

Actually I'm sure it is a huge difference to the victims.

In the west the victim is likely at the very least to receive aid and understanding and justice is often pursued and found through the laws and legal system not to mention many other resources and outlets.

The victim in Islamic countries not only seldom gets aid or justice but very often ends up being vilified and prosecuted under Islamic/sharia zina laws.

The difference is HUGE to the victims.

 

[BadBeast]

Actually I'm sure it is a huge difference to the victims.

In the west the victim is likely at the very least to receive aid and understanding and justice is often pursued and found through the laws and legal system not to mention many other resources and outlets.

The victim in Islamic countries not only seldom gets aid or justice but very often ends up being vilified and prosecuted under Islamic/sharia zina laws.

The difference is HUGE to the victims.

For a start, the Country the OP refers to, is Italy. Not an Islamic Country last time I checked. And the Laws did very little to protect the victim. The fact that the perpetrators are being "brought to justice" is no comfort at all to the poor dead girl. And as for the victim getting "aid", well, I think she's a little beyond aid.
This happened in a Western Country. Despite all the Laws, and understanding you claim make us "better" than Islamic Countries.

 

[linwood]

For a start, the Country the OP refers to, is Italy. Not an Islamic Country last time I checked. And the Laws did very little to protect the victim. The fact that the perpetrators are being "brought to justice" is no comfort at all to the poor dead girl. And as for the victim getting "aid", well, I think she's a little beyond aid.
This happened in a Western Country. Despite all the Laws, and understanding you claim make us "better" than Islamic Countries.

You seem to be changing the argument.

You were responding to Smokes statement about the conditions of Muslim culture concerning these offenses.

You made the comparison that these offenses were no different in western culture than they were in Muslim culture.

You comparison is false for the reasons I've cited regardless of the OP or this one individual case.

It's simply untrue.

 

[Bismillah]

The ever-popular Muslim "Johnny does it too, mommy" argument. All it does is evidence a refusal to take responsibility.

Auto I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not and will never condone these acts in our society. But what I am saying is that these things generally occur in economically poor areas and are not tied with Islam.

You don't think that Muhammad's marriage to Aisha might have something to do with the many Muslim clerics and authorities, as well as millions of Muslims, who approve of child-marriage?

Nope I don't. Not at all considering that I don't believe that Aisha was a child when married. And even if you do take it that Aisha was a child you still cannot justify it as a reason for marrying a child today. Anthropologists understand that when studying past cultures they have to remove their own cultural biases and know that their society, it's morals and ethics are all radically different and arbitrary, this is a fact though I am blanking on the term for this at the moment. Comparing ancient Arabia, with an average life expectancy of 50, to today's world is ludicrous.

Why are so many Muslim countries underdeveloped, illiterate and isolated from the modern world?

I have seen this question so many times. I don't care to respond at all other than the fact that Muslim countries reached their peak when Islam did as well. Other than that, what does this have to do with the topic?

Abibi: Islamic clerics are the ones asserting that child marriage is Islamic, and I'm way too ignorant to argue with them. In Yemen, the legislature is trying to outlaw it, and the clerics are stopping them. Don't you think Islam might have something to do with that?

Good point. I think that these clerics are pandering to the masses to counter Yemeni attempts to restrict the political power of these religious officials. I think they are obviously biased when it comes to such rulings as a simple matter of their mettle being tested against the state.

 

[Bismillah]

And Muhammad Hamzi's argument that you have to protect the "rights" of 13-year-old boys who want to have sex with little girls? Does that fall under financial gain or the well-being of the children?

Smoke what I'm getting at is that these terms are generally what many use to justify their actions. This would happen regardless of whether or not Yemen was a Muslim state. I cannot fathom or comprehend this clerics perverted views. He is forgoing one of the most important foundation within Muslim marriages of consent just so little boys can fulfill any supposed desires they have. If a college student in America can ignore this temptation a Yemeni boy 13 years old sure as hell can as well.

When peoples who have been Muslim for 1300 years are still selling their little daughters into what amounts to a lifetime of slavery and forced prostitution, and killing them if they resist, what does that tell us about the ability of Islam to shape a free and just society?

It tells you little to nothing about Islam. Rather it just demonstrates the sad lives many girls face in the poorer countries of the world. I am quite convinced that within a developed Muslim country such marriages would be almost non-existent.