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Become a muslim in three days or die

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
"The Quran speaks of the Revelation of the Bab as well as the coming of Baha’u’llah." Unquote.

Please don't misrepresent Quran.
Quran does not speak of Revelation to Bahaullah.
If Bahaullah talked about it, then it is a good proof of his fallibility to misunderstand Quran, please.

Regards

But one other thing brother is I always uphold and defend the truth and dignity of the Prophet and the Holy Quran. People out of ignorance say terrible things about the Messenger and I am very passionate about setting the facts out showing the truth.

So although you don’t agree about Baha’u’llah, you will always find me supporting and defending attacks against the Prophet, the Quran and innocent Muslims. It is my pleasure and blessing to tell the truth as many have been misled by biased media and websites regarding Islam. And I don’t like to see anyone treated like we Baha’is are in Iran.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So...
Your 1863 prophet is at least 1000 after Islam? OK
Your 613 prophet Mohammed/Allah is at least 1000 after ___________?

It still doesn't add up and it skips Jesus.

I



The Holy Books must be referred to in order to determine when these events are to occur not just applying 1,000 years.

Yeah, but you indicated never less than 1000 years. So please refer to your holy books. If they recognized Mohammed/Allah they should have / must have skipped Jesus.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Quran 31:27

And if all trees that are on the earth were to be pens, and the ocean (converted into ink) is supported by seven seas following it, the words of Allah would not come to an end. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The Quran itself says the Words of God will never end. So for Baha’u’llah to come and bring new Words from God is in full agreement with this passage in the Quran.

WOW! I've seen a lot of s t r e t c h i n g in these forums, but that may be one of the best (worst?) yet.

Nowhere, nohow does Q 31:27 state, suggest, indicate, imply that someone else is going to deliver Allah's words.

If nothing else, your interpretation is extremely offensive.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
But one other thing brother is I always uphold and defend the truth and dignity of the Prophet and the Holy Quran. People out of ignorance say terrible things about the Messenger and I am very passionate about setting the facts out showing the truth.

So although you don’t agree about Baha’u’llah, you will always find me supporting and defending attacks against the Prophet, the Quran and innocent Muslims. It is my pleasure and blessing to tell the truth as many have been misled by biased media and websites regarding Islam. And I don’t like to see anyone treated like we Baha’is are in Iran.

I appreciate one's truthful position on the above. I also condemn persecution of Bahaism people in Iran.
I am not against Bahaullah, he has died and whatever stance he had he is answerable before G-d. I am nobody to judge him. I don't feel anything against him in my heart.
But that doesn't mean that he always understood Quran correctly, if he made mistakes in understanding many verses of Quran from the context verses, I cannot share his mistakes, and I will like to point them out.
My Bahaism friends may help him by quoting the verses in question with the context verses and then prove from them that he was right.
It will be a friendly activity. Right, please?
I understand Quran directly from the Arabic original text, and then there are many translations available and the lexicons etc.

Regards
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
loverofhumanity said:
Quran 31:27

And if all trees that are on the earth were to be pens, and the ocean (converted into ink) is supported by seven seas following it, the words of Allah would not come to an end. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.
loverofhumanity said:
The Quran itself says the Words of God will never end. So for Baha’u’llah to come and bring new Words from God is in full agreement with this passage in the Quran.
WOW! I've seen a lot of s t r e t c h i n g in these forums, but that may be one of the best (worst?) yet.

Nowhere, nohow does Q 31:27 state, suggest, indicate, imply that someone else is going to deliver Allah's words.

If nothing else, your interpretation is extremely offensive.
I agree with one and have to add.
Not only that the verses of Quran have to be understood from the context verses but also from other passages/chapters elsewhere in Quran, as Quran repeats things in different styles and words so that there is no ambiguity left on an issue. And it is not difficult to do because Quran is a compact/handy book.
My understanding is that Bahaullah as also the Bahaism people are so influenced by their own thoughts that they try to find such meanings from the Quranic verses that are simply not at all in the text.
I believe it is clearly a mistake and of course points to fallibility of Bahaullah. Right, please?

Regards
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Color emphases mine...
loverofhumanity said:
Quran 31:27

And if all trees that are on the earth were to be pens, and the ocean (converted into ink) is supported by seven seas following it, the words of Allah would not come to an end. Surely, Allah is Mighty, Wise.
loverofhumanity said:
The Quran itself says the Words of God will never end. So for Baha’u’llah to come and bring new Words from God is in full agreement with this passage in the Quran.

I agree with one and have to add.
Not only that the verses of Quran have to be understood from the context verses but also from other passages/chapters elsewhere in Quran, as Quran repeats things in different styles and words so that there is no ambiguity left on an issue. And it is not difficult to do because Quran is a compact/handy book.
My understanding is that Bahaullah as also the Bahaism people are so influenced by their own thoughts that they try to find such meanings from the Quranic verses that are simply not at all in the text.
I believe it is clearly a mistake and of course points to fallibility of Bahaullah. Right, please?

Regards
I agree with the part in red.

I disagree with the part in blue. The Quran is loaded with ambiguities. If you disagree, please explain why there have been and are scholars who resolve conflicts regarding the interpretation of Quranic law.



Apparently Muslims are also deeply anti evolution. While researching Quranic conflicts I came across this gem on a Muslim site.

Humankind is besieged with all sorts of conflicts. But instead of dealing them through peaceful means, we are often faced with its Darwinian resolution - "The Might is Right" concept, that is, the powerful resort to force and impose their will on the weak.
Apparently the author would blame Darwin and ignore the Might makes Right used by Mohammed to "promote" Islam: Convert or Die. Ah, the hypocrisy.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member



Yeah, but you indicated never less than 1000 years. So please refer to your holy books. If they recognized Mohammed/Allah they should have / must have skipped Jesus.

Baha’u’llah was speaking about the next Messenger to appear when He mentioned the 1,000 years. All Those gone before are accepted including Jesus.

There are so many beautiful things said about Jesus in the Baha’i Writings.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I appreciate one's truthful position on the above. I also condemn persecution of Bahaism people in Iran.
I am not against Bahaullah, he has died and whatever stance he had he is answerable before G-d. I am nobody to judge him. I don't feel anything against him in my heart.
But that doesn't mean that he always understood Quran correctly, if he made mistakes in understanding many verses of Quran from the context verses, I cannot share his mistakes, and I will like to point them out.
My Bahaism friends may help him by quoting the verses in question with the context verses and then prove from them that he was right.
It will be a friendly activity. Right, please?
I understand Quran directly from the Arabic original text, and then there are many translations available and the lexicons etc.

Regards

Yes first is that we are always brothers no matter what our different understandings may be as we are one in our belief in God.

We are told all people are from God so to love and respect all people no matter which religion they may be.

So you are most welcome to share your views and I will always welcome your different understanding because I am not knowing everything, I know very, very little and I am happy to learn from you as you have much knowledge to share also.

So please always feel most welcome to express whatever is in your heart.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
Words of Baha’u’llah...

Certain ones among you,” He declared, “have said: ‘He it is Who hath laid claim to be God.’ By God! This is a gross calumny. I am but a servant of God Who hath believed in Him and in His signs… My tongue, and My heart, and My inner and My outer being testify that there is no God but Him, that all others have been created by His behest, and been fashioned through the operation of His Will…. I am He that telleth abroad the favors with which God hath, through His bounty, favored Me. If this be My transgression, then I am truly the first of the transgressors….” (Gleanings)

When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!” (World Order of Baha’u’llah)

I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, ..(Epistle to the Shah)

Station of God

Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God," He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world.

Station of Messenger

And were any of them to voice the utterance, "I am the Messenger of God," He, also, speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. Even as He saith: "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but He is the Messenger of God."

Station of Servant

And were they to say, "We are the Servants of God," this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain. Thus in moments in which these Essences of Being were deep immersed beneath the oceans of ancient and everlasting holiness, or when they soared to the loftiest summits of Divine mysteries, they claimed their utterances to be the Voice of Divinity, the Call of God Himself.

So to recapitulate. No Baha’u’llah is not God but thenRepresentstive of God Who is endowed with authority from God to speak on God’s behalf.

So it is said that ...

Thus, He hath revealed: "Those shafts were God's, not Thine." And also He saith: "In truth, they who plighted fealty unto Thee, really plighted that fealty unto God.

Quran 48:10

Indeed, those who pledge allegiance to you, [O Muúammad] they are actually pledging allegiance to Allah.

It’s clear then that Muhammad and Baha’u’llah are not God but God’s Representstives but certain verses like the one from the Quran can be read as if Muhammad was God but He made it clear He was a Messenger however by turning away from God’s Messenger is the same as turning away from God.

The same with Baha’u’llah. Baha’u’llah is not God at all. But as God has appointed Him as His Representative then to turn away from Baha’u’llah as it is with Muhammad or any Divine Messenger is the same as turning away from God.

I much appreciate one's clear stance , "Baha’u’llah is not God at all" "Yes that’s correct. Baha’u’llah is not God in any form. There is indeed no God but God", and a confirmation by friend Trailblazer , "Baha'u'llah made it clear in no uncertain terms that He was not God." also such expressions from friend adrian009.
As against that there are other Bahaism friends here who take Bahaullah as God.

Regards
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I much appreciate one's clear stance , "Baha’u’llah is not God at all" "Yes that’s correct. Baha’u’llah is not God in any form. There is indeed no God but God", and a confirmation by friend Trailblazer , "Baha'u'llah made it clear in no uncertain terms that He was not God." also such expressions from friend adrian009.
As against that there are other Bahaism friends here who take Bahaullah as God.

Regards

All Baha’is know that Baha’u’llah is not God. There is absolutely no room for misunderstanding on this point. It is very clear to all Baha’is so maybe either they are not really Baha’is or did not explain themselves clearly.

It would be open blasphemy to call Baha’u’llah God. We all know that.

In a prayer, Baha’u’llah says that for anyone to claim to be equal to God would be a crime.

Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory.

For the mere mention of any one of Thy creatures would in itself imply an assertion of their existence before the court of Thy singleness and unity. Such an assertion would be naught but open blasphemy, an act of impiety, the essence of profanity and a wanton crime.
 
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loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I much appreciate one's clear stance , "Baha’u’llah is not God at all" "Yes that’s correct. Baha’u’llah is not God in any form. There is indeed no God but God", and a confirmation by friend Trailblazer , "Baha'u'llah made it clear in no uncertain terms that He was not God." also such expressions from friend adrian009.
As against that there are other Bahaism friends here who take Bahaullah as God.

Regards

This is a diagram of one of our basic beliefs. Note that God is above and alone by Himself with no partner or equal and the Prophets and Messengers are all below Him and are His Servants.


678A7435-6D4B-41BB-8CF4-5DCEAB4EC7BB.jpeg
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
s against that there are other Bahaism friends here who take Bahaullah as God.

Paarsurry, this is the explanation;

"The Bahá'í Writings contain many passages that elucidate the nature of the Manifestation and His relationship to God. Bahá'u'lláh underlines the unique and transcendent nature of the Godhead. He explains that "since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation" God ordains that "in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven". This "mysterious and ethereal Being", the Manifestation of God, has a human nature which pertains to "the world of matter" and a spiritual nature "born of the substance of God Himself". He is also endowed with a "double station":
The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself... The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: "I am but a man like you." "Say, praise be to my Lord! Am I more than a man, an apostle?"
Bahá'u'lláh also affirms that, in the spiritual realm, there is an "essential unity" between all the Manifestations of God. They all reveal the "Beauty of God", manifest His names and attributes, and give utterance to His Revelation. In this regard, He states:
Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: "I am God", He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His names and His attributes, are made manifest in the world...
While the Manifestations reveal the names and attributes of God and are the means by which humanity has access to the knowledge of God and His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi states that the Manifestations should "never ... be identified with that invisible Reality, the Essence of Divinity itself". In relation to Bahá'u'lláh, the Guardian wrote that the "human temple that has been the vehicle of so overpowering a Revelation" is not to be identified with the "Reality" of God.
Concerning the uniqueness of Bahá'u'lláh's station and the greatness of His Revelation, Shoghi Effendi affirms that the prophetic statements concerning the "Day of God", found in the Sacred Scriptures of past Dispensations, are fulfilled by the advent of Bahá'u'lláh:
To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the "Everlasting Father", the "Lord of Hosts" come down "with ten thousands of saints"; to Christendom Christ returned "in the glory of the Father"; to Shi'ah Islam the return of the Imam Husayn; to Sunni Islam the descent of the "Spirit of God" (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Shah-Bahram; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha.
Bahá'u'lláh describes the station of "Divinity" which He shares with all the Manifestations of God as
...the station in which one dieth to himself and liveth in God. Divinity, whenever I mention it, indicateth My complete and absolute self-effacement. This is the station in which I have no control over mine own weal or woe nor over my life nor over my resurrection.
And, regarding His own relationship to God, He testifies:
When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things "verily I am God"; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!

Baha'u'llah : The Kitab-i-Aqdas - Notes

Regards Tony
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Baha’u’llah was speaking about the next Messenger to appear when He mentioned the 1,000 years. All Those gone before are accepted including Jesus.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's go back to the beginning of this long conversation:
The intimation of His Revelation to Bahá'u'lláh in the Síyáh-Chál of Tihrán, in October 1852, marks the birth of His Prophetic Mission and hence the commencement of the one thousand years or more that must elapse before the appearance of the next Manifestation of God."

We Baha’is understand that our laws will be applicable to us for at least a thousand years

RE: "commencement of the one thousand years". That implied that periods between manifestations were 1000 years.
RE: "our laws". That implied existing and ongoing laws.

So, despite what you wrote and implied, the bottom line is Bahá'u'lláh is establishing, for the first time ever, a time period during which no other true messengers could appear. In other words he is just making up chit as he goes along.

As I said near the beginning of this conversation:

1. He is saying that all other religions for the next 1000 years are false religions because he said that all other religions for the next 1000 years are false religions.
No precedent. Nothing historical. Just "I said it - believe it - obey it"

As I said from the beginning...
Wow, that's really cool. What I say goes for 1000 years. Anyone who tells you different is a liar.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
This is a diagram of one of our basic beliefs. Note that God is above and alone by Himself with no partner or equal and the Prophets and Messengers are all below Him and are His Servants.

From your chart I did a little digging to see about Bab...

Báb - Wikipedia
In mid-1850 a new prime-minister, Amir Kabir,[36] ordered the execution of the Báb, probably because various Bábí insurrections' defeats and the movement's popularity appeared waning. The Báb was brought back to Tabriz from Chehriq for an execution by firing squad. The night before his execution, while being conducted to his cell, a young Bábí, Muhammad-Ali "Anis" from Zonuz, threw himself at the feet of the Báb and begged martyrdom with him, then was immediately arrested and placed in the same cell as the Báb.

On the morning of July 9, 1850 (28 Sha'ban 1266 AH), taken to the courtyard of the barracks where held, there appeared thousands of people gathered to watch his execution. The Báb and Anís were suspended on a wall and a large firing squad of Christian soldiers prepared to shoot.[9] Numerous eye-witness reports, including those of Western diplomats, recount the result.[37] The order was given to fire and the barracks square filled with musket smoke. When it cleared, the Báb was no longer in the courtyard and his companion stood there unharmed; the bullets apparently had not harmed either man, but had cut the rope suspending them from the wall.[38] There was a great commotion, many in the crowd believing the Báb had ascended to heaven or simply disappeared. But the soldiers subsequently found the Báb in another part of the barracks, completely unharmed, giving his final instructions to his secretary. He and Anis were tied up for execution a second time, and a second firing squad of Muslim soldiers ranged in front of them. A second order to fire was given. This time the Báb and his companion were killed.[9] In Bábí and Bahá'í tradition, the failure of the first firing to kill the Báb is believed a miracle. Their remains were dumped outside the gates of the town to be eaten by animals.

However, their remains were clandestinely rescued by a handful of Bábis and then hidden. Over time the remains secretly transported according to the instructions of Bahá'u'lláh and then `Abdu'l-Bahá by way of Isfahan, Kirmanshah, Baghdad, Damascus, Beirut, and then by sea to Acre on the plain below Mount Carmel in 1899.[39] On March 21, 1909, the remains were interred in a special tomb, the Shrine of the Báb, erected for this purpose by `Abdu'l-Bahá, on Mount Carmel in present-day Haifa, Israel.[40] In its vicinity, the Bahá'í World Centrewelcomes visitors to tour the gardens.​


Silliness beyond silliness.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

And you know this because you have never met a Muslim.. never lived in an Arab country and never read the Koran.
 

ManSinha

Well-Known Member
In a prayer, Baha’u’llah says that for anyone to claim to be equal to God would be a crime.

Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory.

For the mere mention of any one of Thy creatures would in itself imply an assertion of their existence before the court of Thy singleness and unity. Such an assertion would be naught but open blasphemy, an act of impiety, the essence of profanity and a wanton crime
.

In which year was this composed?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Is it true in islam if you change from islam away and dont go back in three days, they kill you?

While many muslims will deny it, Islamic doctrine is crystal clear. The punishment for apostacy is death. The prophet Mohammed literally said it, as documented in Bukhari: "If a muslims discards his religion, kill him".

The Quran itself also says it.
The Quran also says that there is no compulsion in religion. But that refers to not forcing non-muslims to convert. And ps: if they refuse to convert, that doesn't mean they are left alone in their dignity and freedom to do as they please...... they are still to be subject to islamic law and are forbidden to preach their own religion etc in public. You may guess 3 times what the punishment is if they do so anyway.


The fact that it is hard to get a lot of muslims to admit to that, is to me evidence that deep down they realise how backwards their religion really is.
 
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