Believers and Disbelievers

[Corthos]

And were they able to observe and deduct by using their naked eyes?

Honestly, regurgitation is a very common aspect in nature... It seems plausible to come to that conclusion just by casual observation. =/

 

[FearGod]

The Greeks could have used primitive lens as a form of an early microscope. Although it would be closer to a magnifying glass since it lacks the type of lens within what is now considered microscopes. Such lens were used during the period even in surgery

Do you think a simple lens is enough?

The simplest form of microscopes were invented in the year 1590 by Zacharias Janssen.

 

[Shad]

Do you think a simple lens is enough?

It had obvious limits but it was enough to generate a number of ideas.

The simplest form of microscopes were invented in the year 1590 by Zacharias Janssen.

So you didn't bother to read what I posted and googled something irrelevant as I had already pointed out these lens were not like the microscopes we have now.

The Greeks could have used primitive lens as a form of an early microscope. Although it would be closer to a magnifying glass since it lacks the type of lens within what is now considered microscopes. Such lens were used during the period even in surgery

 

[Rajina]

I"m going to stop you right there. The second you tell me you believe your god doesn't see men and women equally then I reject it. It is a false god or if it is a real god then it is an immoral god. Equality isn't about ability. Men on average are stronger and taller. That is about it in advantages over women. Neither dictate rights and opinion. Especially not by a god. I've heard the same nonsensical rebuttal before.

In the sight of My God(your God/our God) the nobility of a person depends on his/her righteousness, whether they be male or female, poor or rich, black or white, it makes no difference.

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted" Qur'an (49:13)

"Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women, for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward."
Qur'an(33:35)

It is a fact that God did not create man and woman equally. They have different roles and hence different 'rules '( not in all cases). But this doesn't mean that one group is superior over the other. Men have some rights over women and women have some rights over men. Clear?

What of treatment of homosexuals and apostates? Sure. Some things were good in the Quran. Some things were good in Mine Kampf but the question isn't if some is good but is it totally good and perfect. Discrimination against LGBT community is in fact immoral.

Since we are discussing about the rules prescribed in Qur'an, I should make it clear that there is no rule or law prescribed in Qur'an, concerning apostacy. The Qur'an clearly says that there is no compulsion in religion.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." Qur'an (2:256)

However, according to Hadeeths, the penalty for apostacy is death. Here apostate is someone after changing their religion participates in treason and treachery, cooperating with the enemies to either harm the civilians or to destroy islam in an islamically governed society.This law can be practiced only by the ruler or someone appointed by the ruler in an islamically governed country, and only after trials and hearing before court. And the convicts has to be granted forgiveness, if they repent.

Islam gives rules for the individuals as well as rules for the society. Islam gives laws of governance to protect the civilians in an Islamically governed society. The death penalty for treason is a rule which you can see in most of our countries including United States.

Concerning homosexuality, there is no rule or law in Qur'an which talks about how homosexual people should be treated.
According to Qur'an, homosexual acts are sinful, just like how fornication, adultery, drinking alcohol, stealing, telling lies, saying 'uff' to parents..are sinful. In Islam the greatest sin a person can do is Shirk( associating partners with God). Qur'an encourages us to love and show mercy to even those who does shirk.

No. None of that. I don't believe the Quran to have such in depth and amazing articles that were not figured out later by science. It is my opinion, limited as it may be but based on the arguments and evidence I have seen, to be mundane information not at all impossible for him to have known.

For him to have known them, he should have had knowledge in those fields, right?

How do you think he would have known that the coast of dead sea is the 'lowest land on earth'(Adna al ardh)? The word 'Adna Al Ardh' has another meaning 'nearest land on earth' and to the luck of muslims, it turned out that the coast of dead sea is exactly the lowest land on earth?

How.could have he known the unbelievable similarity between embryo and leach (Alaqa)? The word Alaqa has another meaning 'blood clot' and he would have meant that embryo was like a blood clot and to the luck of Muslims it turned out that embryo has an unbelievable similarity with leach?

Give an example about astronomy that was impossible for him to know at the time.

These are some of such verses. One thing that should be understood before reading this is that in Qur'an heaven and paradise are not the same. The word used for paradise is Jannah, its the place were rigteous people will be admitted on the judgement day and Qur'an gives a very beautiful description Jannah. The word used for heaven is Samaa' . Quran says that Allah created seven heavens and he decorated the lowest heaven with lamps (stars). So the lowest heaven is the universe, outside which there are six more heavens( may be six more universes about which we know nothing about, infact we have only explored a small part of the lowest heaven). Allah then says that He is above the seven heavens.

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” Quran(21:30)

“And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?” Quran(71:16) “Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars” Quran(37:6) “ And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.” Quran (41 :12)

“Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."” Quran (41:11)

“By the heaven containing pathways/ weaves” Quran (51:7)

“By the sun and its brightness. And [by] the moon when it follows it. And [by] the day when it displays it. And [by] the night when it covers it” Quran (91: 1-4)

 

[Rajina]

And I think I agree to an extent. What I am saying is it is not evidence of divinity. It simply is free from one possible glaring attribute that would most definitely make it not

An evidence is a fact or situation that suggests something might be true. Proof is a fact or situation that removes all doubt. Sometimes more than one evidence can add up to proof.
'Being free from one possible glaring attribute that would most definitely make it not divine' simply means that it satisfies a characteristic that a divine scripture should have, which is an indication that it might be divine or in other words its an evidence.

I am not. You have not given specific criteria even though I ask for them. I have given you examples of works that meet certain criteria that couls imitate or even surpass the Quran. However you have brushed them aside without any real reason why.

Either you did not understand what the challenge of Qur'an is or you didn't read the articles which I shared. Anyways I will explain it again.

The challenge that Qur'an poses to those who deny its divinity is to bring something similar to it or similar to 10 verses in it or at least similar to a chapter in it.

Verses similar to Qur'an means:
- It should be in the same language (Arabic)
- Its eloquence and style should be superior similar to that of Qur'an.
- it should neither be a pross nor a poem, but still should have a rhyming nature.
- its level of informativity should be similar to that of the verses of Qur'an.
- each verse should be in the most concise form like that of Qur'an
- it should not use any filthy words
-should not contain any contradictions or mistakes
- Each word used should be precisely accurate for the context.
- Mode of speach should be powerful.. In a way a higher authority is speaking to the reader.

I don't think I can make a complete list of characteristics of Qur'an. But I hope the above characteristics would help you to understand, what it means by 'similar to Qur'an'.

The two examples that you gave were Thorah and the Budhist sutras. First of all both are not in Arabic. Secondly the Thorah was a scripture from Allah (according to Qur'an).
In what way is the Buddhist sutras similar to Qur'an?

In which case it means that the verse can be more or less assumed to be anything so long as one can rationalize it to a barrier.

No.. The verse simply means that there is a barrier between two seas which separates them.

Personally? I think he guessed and was right. I don't know enough of historical bee keeping to go into the details but as a little child without any knowledge of bees or teachings of where the honey comes from I had assumed that it came from inside the bees. Cows make milk. Bees make honey. Honey is obviously not flower nectar so even if it was created out of nectar it had to have undergone processes inside the bee.

Cows give milk, that's obvious because we take milk from cow's body. But were do we take honey from? From bees body? If we observe the bees, we see it wandering from flowers to flowers and then depositing something in their hive. Until 1800s people believed that the bees collected honey from flowers and honeydews.

“Honey is a well known,sweet,tenacious, substance, which in fine weather is continually secreting in the nectaries of flowers, chiefly from certain vesicles or glands situated near the basis of every petal, from whence it is collected by bees and other insects.”
-The Honey Bee: its Natural History, Physiology and Management by Edward Bevan published in 1827

I'll give you a hint about something. Expander isn't even a word in English. The term "expanded" "expanding" ect are only used in this verse translation after the fact. Another such translation, though I don't speak the language myself but was explained to me (so if this is wrong feel free to context it I suppose as this is second hand) the same word could be used for someone building a house. To have made the room wide and expansive. IT doesn't mean the house itself was made and then stretched out but rather it was made in a way that it would be broad and large. Not to mention in the verse in the arabic it seems to indicate that it was a past tense not present tense expansion.

It could just as easily be read "God made the universe big and wide"

The word vasa'a( وسع ) means “he made wide, broad, spacious, roomy, or ample” and this is in past tense. But the word used in Qur'an is not vasa'a( وسع ), the word used is Musi'oon( مُوسِعُونَ) which means ones who widens or ones who expands etc or in other word expanders( since my mother tongue is not English and since my English is weak, I cannot authoritatively tell you that expander is a word in English, but this word is there in the online oxford dictionary). The word Musi'oon is a noun and hence no tense is implied here. The word before it is innaa which means 'indeed we'. So when we just take the word by word translation it is : 'indeed we the ones who widens/expands/broadens ' ( innaa la musi'oon)

Allah begins the verse by saying " And the heavens we constructed with strength", its clearly in past tense. Then He doesn't say ' and we expanded it', He says ' and indeed we the one who expands it'. Clear?

 

[Rajina]

Actually it doesn't since it does not say honey is made in the stomach merely comes from it. This is not the same. Beside as per my source they also knew honey came from the stomaches of bees. They just didn't know the source nor process which the Quran never mentions once.

Yes, the Qur'an doesn't explain the chemical process behind the formation of honey, but it simply and concisely states that a drink varying in colour, which has a heeling property emerges from the bellies of bees.

Instead of repeatedly arguing that ' my sources shows that Aristotle said honey came from the bellies of bees', why don't u just quote it directly over here from Aristotle's book.

A lot of people were illiterate during this era and after. You seem to ignore there is oral communication and it was a primary method of teaching for the majority of humanity. You use illiterate as if it matter in that era since it matter in the current one. It didn't.

Argument from incredulity. Muhammad traveled as a merchant could of easily picked up idea from hearsay. Arabia wasn't some backwater with no access nor knowledge of/from the Greeco/Roman world, knowledge which existed for over a millennia just from one source. You are speculating in an ad hoc manner, nothing more.

Yes its possible that Muhammad could have somehow known about the ideas of ancient Greek Philosophers. But your argument goes like this:

"Aristotle had the idea that honey came from the bellies of bees (eventhough he actually didnt have it). Muhammad somehow came to know about the ideas of Greek Philosophers and guessed that their ideas would be correct, and from the different opinions among Greek philosophers , he guessed that ideas of Aristotle was the right one and from the different contradicting ideas of Aristotle, he guesses that this particular one was correct in the case of ' honey coming from the bellies of bees' and regarding the variation in color of honey, he guessed that Aristotles idea that 'the color of honey depends on the quality of comb in which it is stored' is false and he guessed that honey that emerges from the honey bee is varying in color, and regarding the gender of working bees, he guessed that the hypothesis of some other philosophers were correct. Unfortunately to the luck of Muslims all his guesses came out to be correct."

 

[Rajina]

Using female verbs, grammatical gender, does not mean the subject is female, sex gender.

Absolutely wrong.
In Arabic language while referring to a group, the female verb forms are used only if the group is exclusively female. If there is at least one male in the group then the verb form used is masculine.

 

[Shad]

Yes, the Qur'an doesn't explain the chemical process behind the formation of honey, but it simply and concisely states that a drink varying in colour, which has a heeling property emerges from the bellies of bees.

Healing properties already known prior to Islam. As shown already the honey coming from bee's stomachs was already a hypothesis before Islam

Instead of repeatedly arguing that ' my sources shows that Aristotle said honey came from the bellies of bees', why don't u just quote it directly over here from Aristotle's book.

Read the sources again.

Yes its possible that Muhammad could have somehow known about the ideas of ancient Greek Philosophers. But your argument goes like this:

"Aristotle had the idea that honey came from the bellies of bees (eventhough he actually didnt have it). Muhammad somehow came to know about the ideas of Greek Philosophers and guessed that their ideas would be correct, and from the different opinions among Greek philosophers , he guessed that ideas of Aristotle was the right one and from the different contradicting ideas of Aristotle, he guesses that this particular one was correct in the case of ' honey coming from the bellies of bees' and regarding the variation in color of honey, he guessed that Aristotles idea that 'the color of honey depends on the quality of comb in which it is stored' is false and he guessed that honey that emerges from the honey bee is varying in color, and regarding the gender of working bees, he guessed that the hypothesis of some other philosophers were correct. Unfortunately to the luck of Muslims all his guesses came out to be correct."

Strawman.

Aristotle already hypothesized that the source of honey, dew, flowers, etc, was gathered by bees as was other materials. The dew by their mouth pieces and other materials by their legs. As per my source stating he observed them disgorging their honey. This hypothesis may be the only one he heard rather than multiple hypothesis. Regardless he is still repeating a hypothesis already present before his time and made without divine knowledge. No guess need be involved.

No all of his guesses were right. The scientific miracle rhetoric is flawed as are it's conclusions.

 

[Shad]

Absolutely wrong.
In Arabic language while referring to a group, the female verb forms are used only if the group is exclusively female. If there is at least one male in the group then the verb form used is masculine.

Nope. Considering there is a verse in the Quran about the flight of birds in which the female verb is used for all birds. Your Arabic is sloppy. Using your argument only female birds can fly and all penguins are male.

 

[viole]

If you believe in God, then why you believe and why you think your path
is the right path for you, IOW why it makes sense to you.

If you disbelieve, then why you don't believe and why it make sense to you
that such universe doesn't need a creator and that it started without a starter.

Simple. The Universe did not start.

So, your turn. Even if we assume that a God exists, what makes you think He is the one you worship? i ask because you cannot be all right, Allah and Jesus look very different from Ganesh, and from each other. And if the vast majority of theists, today and in the past, is very wrong, necessarily, about the flavor of God they worship, why should we take the beliefs of any theist seriously?

Ciao

- viole

 

[muhammad_isa]

Simple. The Universe did not start.

Whether it did or not, it's apparent that we 'started'

...if the vast majority of theists, today and in the past, is very wrong, necessarily, about the flavor of God they worship, why should we take the beliefs of any theist seriously?

Nobody has a complete religious knowledge, but the 'vast majority of theists' today are NOT very wrong .. they share many common beliefs .. the creation of the universe and all it contains being one .. belief in prophets is another, especially Abraham and Moses.
Even people of the same denomination don't always agree with each other, much like politicians
That is the nature of our world ie. human beings

 

[Midnight Rain]

In the sight of My God(your God/our God) the nobility of a person depends on his/her righteousness, whether they be male or female, poor or rich, black or white, it makes no difference.

"O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted" Qur'an (49:13)

"Surely for men who submit to Allah and for women who submit to Allah, for believing men and for believing women, for devout men and devout women, for truthful men and truthful women, for steadfast men and steadfast women, for humble men and humble women, for charitable men and charitable women, for fasting men and fasting women, for men who guard their chastity and women who guard their chastity, for men who remember Allah much and for women who remember Allah much, for all of them Allah has prepared forgiveness and a mighty reward."
Qur'an(33:35)

It is a fact that God did not create man and woman equally. They have different roles and hence different 'rules '( not in all cases). But this doesn't mean that one group is superior over the other. Men have some rights over women and women have some rights over men. Clear?

Absolutely not. Within even the Quran itself it never gives a point where women in society have more power than men and very few times where they are equal with men. What about women according to your god makes them less capable than men in defending themselves against rape for example? Why are women considered half a witness? If you feel that they are separate but equal in the reality of the Muslim world then you are sorely mistaken.

Since we are discussing about the rules prescribed in Qur'an, I should make it clear that there is no rule or law prescribed in Qur'an, concerning apostacy. The Qur'an clearly says that there is no compulsion in religion.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." Qur'an (2:256)

However, according to Hadeeths, the penalty for apostacy is death. Here apostate is someone after changing their religion participates in treason and treachery, cooperating with the enemies to either harm the civilians or to destroy islam in an islamically governed society.This law can be practiced only by the ruler or someone appointed by the ruler in an islamically governed country, and only after trials and hearing before court. And the convicts has to be granted forgiveness, if they repent.

Islam gives rules for the individuals as well as rules for the society. Islam gives laws of governance to protect the civilians in an Islamically governed society. The death penalty for treason is a rule which you can see in most of our countries including United States.

Concerning homosexuality, there is no rule or law in Qur'an which talks about how homosexual people should be treated.
According to Qur'an, homosexual acts are sinful, just like how fornication, adultery, drinking alcohol, stealing, telling lies, saying 'uff' to parents..are sinful. In Islam the greatest sin a person can do is Shirk( associating partners with God). Qur'an encourages us to love and show mercy to even those who does shirk.

A further example then. How does the Muslim world treat homosexuals and apostates?

For him to have known them, he should have had knowledge in those fields, right?

Not necessarily. Nothing revealed in the Quran that has turned out to be scientifically accurate was impossible for him to know. There are also cases of retrospective interpretation that differs from the old interpretations.

How do you think he would have known that the coast of dead sea is the 'lowest land on earth'(Adna al ardh)? The word 'Adna Al Ardh' has another meaning 'nearest land on earth' and to the luck of muslims, it turned out that the coast of dead sea is exactly the lowest land on earth?

How.could have he known the unbelievable similarity between embryo and leach (Alaqa)? The word Alaqa has another meaning 'blood clot' and he would have meant that embryo was like a blood clot and to the luck of Muslims it turned out that embryo has an unbelievable similarity with leach?

I won't pretend to know enough about the language to attempt to argue this. However I know in English and more than likely in other languages both the terms Embryo and Blood Clot did not exist as we call them today. The way that we use them now is most likely evolved over time. And even you yourself said that the alternate interpretation of the Dead sea was "closest". Was that not the closest sea?

These are some of such verses. One thing that should be understood before reading this is that in Qur'an heaven and paradise are not the same. The word used for paradise is Jannah, its the place were rigteous people will be admitted on the judgement day and Qur'an gives a very beautiful description Jannah. The word used for heaven is Samaa' . Quran says that Allah created seven heavens and he decorated the lowest heaven with lamps (stars). So the lowest heaven is the universe, outside which there are six more heavens( may be six more universes about which we know nothing about, infact we have only explored a small part of the lowest heaven). Allah then says that He is above the seven heavens.

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” Quran(21:30)

“And made the moon therein a [reflected] light and made the sun a burning lamp?” Quran(71:16) “Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars” Quran(37:6) “ And He completed them as seven heavens within two days and inspired in each heaven its command. And We adorned the nearest heaven with lamps and as protection. That is the determination of the Exalted in Might, the Knowing.” Quran (41 :12)

“Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."” Quran (41:11)

“By the heaven containing pathways/ weaves” Quran (51:7)

“By the sun and its brightness. And [by] the moon when it follows it. And [by] the day when it displays it. And [by] the night when it covers it” Quran (91: 1-4)

None of those seem scientifically accurate except by a long stretch. The only one that "might" be interesting was the one about the sun and moon. However the vast vast majority of it doesn't sound accurate and the only point that seems interesting you had to put in [these boxes]. That usually means that there is nothing written in there and the interpretation has an implanted contextual word which can change the whole meaning of the sentence. So none of these are impressive examples beyond any other sacred text.

An evidence is a fact or situation that suggests something might be true. Proof is a fact or situation that removes all doubt. Sometimes more than one evidence can add up to proof.
'Being free from one possible glaring attribute that would most definitely make it not divine' simply means that it satisfies a characteristic that a divine scripture should have, which is an indication that it might be divine or in other words its an evidence.

I understand that. However what you don't seem to understand is that a bunch of small and weak evidences will not create a proof.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Either you did not understand what the challenge of Qur'an is or you didn't read the articles which I shared. Anyways I will explain it again.

The challenge that Qur'an poses to those who deny its divinity is to bring something similar to it or similar to 10 verses in it or at least similar to a chapter in it.

Verses similar to Qur'an means:
- It should be in the same language (Arabic)
- Its eloquence and style should be superior similar to that of Qur'an.
- it should neither be a pross nor a poem, but still should have a rhyming nature.
- its level of informativity should be similar to that of the verses of Qur'an.
- each verse should be in the most concise form like that of Qur'an
- it should not use any filthy words
-should not contain any contradictions or mistakes
- Each word used should be precisely accurate for the context.
- Mode of speach should be powerful.. In a way a higher authority is speaking to the reader.

I don't think I can make a complete list of characteristics of Qur'an. But I hope the above characteristics would help you to understand, what it means by 'similar to Qur'an'.

The two examples that you gave were Thorah and the Budhist sutras. First of all both are not in Arabic. Secondly the Thorah was a scripture from Allah (according to Qur'an).
In what way is the Buddhist sutras similar to Qur'an?[/quote]
Since we are leaving the Thorah behind the Buddhist writings are in fact not of the same language.. They choose normally not to gather them into a single text but they often rhyme with great beauty and musical prowess. They are usually constructed with amazing grace and portray the most information within a single verse as possible. In fact it goes beyond that of the Quran in this instance as in many sutras they leave out meaning which is still understood when read. They also change from being lessons to being stories depending on the sutra. But each sutra leaves value for a different lesson.

Cows give milk, that's obvious because we take milk from cow's body. But were do we take honey from? From bees body? If we observe the bees, we see it wandering from flowers to flowers and then depositing something in their hive. Until 1800s people believed that the bees collected honey from flowers and honeydews.

“Honey is a well known,sweet,tenacious, substance, which in fine weather is continually secreting in the nectaries of flowers, chiefly from certain vesicles or glands situated near the basis of every petal, from whence it is collected by bees and other insects.”
-The Honey Bee: its Natural History, Physiology and Management by Edward Bevan published in 1827

And what I am telling you is that it isn't impossible for him to have known that. You make it sound amazing that he guessed or figured that bee's made honey rather than collecting it. Its not that crazy.

The word vasa'a( وسع ) means “he made wide, broad, spacious, roomy, or ample” and this is in past tense. But the word used in Qur'an is not vasa'a( وسع ), the word used is Musi'oon( مُوسِعُونَ) which means ones who widens or ones who expands etc or in other word expanders( since my mother tongue is not English and since my English is weak, I cannot authoritatively tell you that expander is a word in English, but this word is there in the online oxford dictionary). The word Musi'oon is a noun and hence no tense is implied here. The word before it is innaa which means 'indeed we'. So when we just take the word by word translation it is : 'indeed we the ones who widens/expands/broadens ' ( innaa la musi'oon)

Allah begins the verse by saying " And the heavens we constructed with strength", its clearly in past tense. Then He doesn't say ' and we expanded it', He says ' and indeed we the one who expands it'. Clear?

Several problems still. An expander is someone who expands something. The term you used as "making the heavens expadner" doesn't make sense in that "expander" would have to be the doer not the thing being done or affected by.

And don't worry your English is better than my Arabic so I can't complain. You are doing extraordinarily well for someone who claims his English is weak. So on that I don't have enough knowledge of Arabic to directly counter but just with what you have said to me. So what does it mean when he says "we". Are there more gods or does he simply refer to himself in the plural? The translation in English sounds more like an introduction for oneself. "And yes I am the one who expands it" not "Yes I am expanding it".

Did the Muslims state that the universe was expanding prior to the 1930's?

 

[Shad]

Ok.. Let's not depend on English translations to learn this, after all they are all human written. Let's learn this from the actual verse in Arabic. The word for expander in this verse is Musi'oon( مُوسِعُونَ). Its root word is vasa'a( وسع ) which means “he made wide, broad, spacious, roomy, or ample.” So musi'oon means the one who widens it, or the one who broadens it and so on.. Which simply means expander.

You can look up this word in the Arabic-English Lexicon written by Edward William Lane, published in 1863, well before Hubble’s discovery. Here is the link to it:
http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/

Is past tense and capable of not actively doing it, read your own source.

 

[Rajina]

As shown already the honey coming from bee's stomachs was already a hypothesis before Islam

No.. You have said that it was a hypothesis before islam.. But you haven't shown that.

Read the sources again.

I read them again and again, a lot of times and read about it from other sources too.

Aristotle already hypothesized that the source of honey, dew, flowers, etc, was gathered by bees as was other materials. The dew by their mouth pieces and other materials by their legs. As per my source stating he observed them disgorging their honey. This hypothesis may be the only one he heard rather than multiple hypothesis. Regardless he is still repeating a hypothesis already present before his time and made without divine knowledge. No guess need be involved.

No all of his guesses were right. The scientific miracle rhetoric is flawed as are it's conclusions.

Where in Aristotle's book does he say that bees carry dews by their mouthpieces.

Aristotle believed that honey was the food of honey bee. But whenever it is near a stream, it drinks only water from the stream. But if they were away from a stream and then comes near a stream then they would disgorge their honey as they drink water from the stream.

"If a stream be near at hand, they drink from it and from it only, but before they drink they first deposit their load; if there be no water near at hand, they disgorge their honey as they
drink elsewhere, and at once make off to work."

Did he have the idea that the honey that we collect from the bee hives came from the bellies of bees? If yes, please quote those sentences from his book.

This hypothesis may be the only one he heard rather than multiple hypothesis. Regardless he is still repeating a hypothesis already present before his time and made without divine knowledge. No guess need be involved.

No all of his guesses were right. The scientific miracle rhetoric is flawed as are it's conclusions.

The Qur'an doesn't put forward any hypothesis, it just talks about facts. So you will have to say that he guessed which of those hypotheses would be facts and presented them as facts and luckily he got them right. Or you will have to say that by his luck he came to know about only those hypotheses which were correct and he presented them as facts.

 

[Thief]

If you believe in God, then why you believe and why you think your path
is the right path for you, IOW why it makes sense to you.

If you disbelieve, then why you don't believe and why it make sense to you
that such universe doesn't need a creator and that it started without a starter.

science!

a creation is a reflection of it's Creator.....
and science helps to clarify

 

[Rajina]

Nope. Considering there is a verse in the Quran about the flight of birds in which the female verb is used for all birds. Your Arabic is sloppy. Using your argument only female birds can fly and all penguins are male.

There are lots of verses in Qur'an which talks about birds. In some cases, male verb forms are used and in some cases female verb forms are used depending on the context.

" There is not a moving (living) creature on earth, nor a bird that flies with its two wings, but are communities like you. We have neglected nothing in the Book, then unto their Lord they (all) shall be gathered. " Qur'an (6:38)

In the above verse the verb form used is masculine.

Another verse which talks about flying birds in which female verb form is used:

"Do they not see the birds above them, spreading out their wings and folding them in? None upholds them except the Most Beneficent (Allâh). Verily, He is the All-Seer of everything."

Since I am not an expert in Arabic or a scholar, I am not qualified to make my own interpretation about the verse. However, if we interpret that the birds referred to here are female birds, then the verse would mean like 'do they not look at the female birds above them...'. If that is the case then Allah is asking us to particularly study about how female birds glide up in the sky, with their wings spread out and with their wings folded in. If that is the case, then it indicates that there is something special and amazing about the flight of female birds. To understand the actual interpretation we need to do more research and discover more..

 

[dgirl1986]

I do not believe in a or any gods. It does not make sense that there would be one when you consider the natural world, events and the universe. I have also seen no evidence of the existence of a higher beng. I am more convinced of mother nature than I am a god.

 

[Rajina]

Absolutely not. Within even the Quran itself it never gives a point where women in society have more power than men and very few times where they are equal with men.

Quran doesn't give any superiority for women over men and it doesn't give any superiority for men over women.

If you are asking about rights of women over men. These are some of them:

- Women in Islam doesn't have any burden of financial responsibilities. It is the duty of men to spend money for her needs, irrespective of how rich she is. If a Woman works, which she is not forced to – all earnings she makes are absolutely her property. She is not obliged to spend from it on the household, unless she wants to do so with her free will.

- Brides in Islam have the right to recieve Mahr(compulsory marital gift) from their grooms. Mahr is considered her property and neither the groom nor the bride's family have any share in or control over it.

"And give the women [upon marriage] their [bridal] gifts graciously. But if they give up willingly to you anything of it, then take it in satisfaction and ease." 4:4

-Lofty position of mothers and daughters

The Prophet (peace be upon him) was once asked," O Messenger of Allah, who among people is most deserving of my good treatment?" He said, "Your mother." The man asked twice more, "Then who?" He repeated the anser twice "Your mother" The fourth time the Prophet responded,"Then your father."

The Prophet Muhammad said, may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him: Your paradise lies under the feet of your mother

In fact, Islam has designated a special reward for raising daughters that is not granted for raising sons.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, Whoever Allah has given two daughters and is kind towards them, they will be a reason for him entering Paradise.

What about women according to your god makes them less capable than men in defending themselves against rape for example?

You are asking these kind of questions because u are still inside the myth that men and women are equal. But the reality is that they are not equal both physically and psychologically. Don't you know that women are less capable of defending men during rape attempts?

In Islam rape is a serious crime. In Qur'an, Allah even orders men to lower down their gaze when they see nonmahram women. However Allah knows very well that majority of people will not obey his orders, and that they might harm women, and so Allah asks women to cover themselves and protect themselves from the lustful gaze of men.

Why are women considered half a witness?

I explained this very clearly in my previous post. Please go back and read it again. If you disagree with what I said, please point out where you disagree.

The case you are talking about, applies only to the witnesses during debt transactions.

There is another case in Qur'an, that if a man accuses adultery against a women and if the women says that she has not committed adultery, then the one who accused this against her should be punished unless he brings four witnesses for the adultery. Even if he brings three witnesses and the women says that she haven't committed adultery, her words are given more value. Now would you say that witness of men is considered 1/4th a witness of women.

If you feel that they are separate but equal in the reality of the Muslim world then you are sorely mistaken.

I think, since you are a nonmuslim lady living in a western country and viewing the Muslim community from outside through the glass of misconceptions that media has provided you, you have loads of misunderstandings about the life of Muslim women.

As a lady, living inside a Muslim community, I experience my rights as a women. I experience the freedom, security and peace of mind that Islam has given me. How can you say that I have misunderstood what I experience?

Take away all your misconceptions and presuppositions and think about this with a clear mind. Biologically men have more muscle power compared to women and women have to face a lot of physical and psychological problems during their periods, pregnancy and feeding period which men do not face. Now if you take the stress faced by women on one side of the balance and stress faced by men on the other side of the balance, the balance would be tilted towards the side of women. Now how do we make the weights equal on both sides and achieve equality? By forcing women to work the same way as men work? To achieve equality, we have to take some stress and difficulties from the side of women and put it on the other side. In Islam this is achieved by taking away all the financial responsibilities and burden from women's side and putting it on men's side.

A further example then. How does the Muslim world treat homosexuals and apostates?

Where is this 'Muslim world'? I don't think that there is any goverment in the world that can be called as a perfect islamic government. To understand , how an Islamically governed society would treat homosexuals and apostates, you will have to look back to history, to the time of Prophet Muhammad( ص).

 

[Rajina]

Not necessarily. Nothing revealed in the Quran that has turned out to be scientifically accurate was impossible for him to know. There are also cases of retrospective interpretation that differs from the old interpretations.

For a lot of verses in Qur'an, we can sea clear interpretation of them in words and life of Prophet Muhammad. There are lots of other verses for which he didnt give any explanation. Scholars of older times, interpreted those verses based on their knowledge. As our knowledge increases, our interpretations change and become more correct. The actual interpretation of those verses are known only to Allah and Allah says this in the Quran:

"It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding." 3:7

I will give an example to make this clear to you. Suppose we take a research paper on some advanced topic in science and give it to a high school student. If we ask her to read it and explain it, she would interpret it and explain it based on her knowledge. And her interpretations might not come any were near the actual interpretation. Now if we give the same paper to a college student who is studying this topic, she would give a better and more correct explanation. As knowledge increases, their level of understanding the paper increases.

I won't pretend to know enough about the language to attempt to argue this. However I know in English and more than likely in other languages both the terms Embryo and Blood Clot did not exist as we call them today. The way that we use them now is most likely evolved over time.

Qur'an does't use the word embryo. It uses the word 'Alaqah'. See this video:

And even you yourself said that the alternate interpretation of the Dead sea was "closest". Was that not the closest sea?

Yes.. The verse says that the romans were defeated in Adna Al Ardh. Which can be translated both as lowest land and nearest land. Both translations are correct. There is no way by which a person in 7th century could have known that its the lowest land. So those who do not wish to accept the divinity of Qur'an, would believe that its just an amazing coincidence. This is the same case with the word Alaqa also.. Either its mind blowing coincidence or its from a divine source. There are lots of other amazing coincidences/ divine signatures like this in Qur'an.

None of those seem scientifically accurate except by a long stretch. The only one that "might" be interesting was the one about the sun and moon. However the vast vast majority of it doesn't sound accurate and the only point that seems interesting you had to put in [these boxes]. That usually means that there is nothing written in there and the interpretation has an implanted contextual word which can change the whole meaning of the sentence. So none of these are impressive examples beyond any other sacred text.

The words put inside [ ] are not actually there in the verse.. But when we translate the verse to English, we will have to add some words and rephrase it to make it a meaningful sentence in English. This is a problem that we face while translating from some other language to English. You would understand this if you know to speak some other language.

What about the verse which says that the heavens and the earth were a joint entity and Allah separated them. How do you think he could have known that?

I understand that. However what you don't seem to understand is that a bunch of small and weak evidences will not create a proof.

So do you accept that the contradiction free nature of Qur'an is an evidence(weak) for its divinity?
A bunch of small and weak evidences can together form a strong evidence. And I never said that there is any proof for the divinity of Qur'an. If you go back to my post were we started this discussion about Qur'an, I said that I will provide you some facts which would together form an evidence for the divinity of Qur'an. I also said that I am no one to convince you and that you will be convinced only if you have the willingness to accept the truth.