Bible Alone.. For Catholic's

[Dogknox20]

Did he though? Those books had been subject of intense debate from the time of Jesus. They were not considered Scripture by the Jewish people. Much of the early church did not include them either. They were not even part of the Catholic canon until 1547. So though Luther did begin the process by which the commonly accepted Protestant Bible came about, it’s foundation was laid 1500 year earlier.

Wildswanderer you are Wrong.. You believe your teachers over HISTORY!
Catholics have ALWAYS had 73 books in the Bible... Protestants took out seven books the man protesting has only 66 books! There was always 73 books ..
The first bible ever printed had 73 book "The Gutenberg Bible" Published in Mainz around 1454! 100 years before the great protest and the de-Forming of the Church!
Fact: Martin Luther had 73 books in his bible!

 

[Dogknox20]

Not if you have to ask permission from Mary to speak to God!

Wildswanderer once more your Opinion!
Look..
Solomon was the wisest man to ever have lived, he Honored his mother by standing for her, He Bowed to his Mother, he brought into the Throne room a Throne placed next his David' Throne!
The King promised to do what his Mother requests of him for Adonijah, the son of Haggith.
Bathsheba was petitioning the King for another person!
1 Kings 2:16 Now I have one request to make of you. Do not refuse me.”
“You may make it,” she said.
17 So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.”
18 “Very well,” Bathsheba replied, “I will speak to the king for you.”
19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
20 “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

The Mother of the King is ALWAYS called "Queen Mother!"
Wildswanderer You dishonor the Mother of the King (Jesus) you dishonor the King himself!
Yes Jesus you are grand but your mother Mary is just an ordinary woman.. nothing special!

As all the saints in heaven do they ALL hand the prayers of us on earth to God!
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
Wildswanderer Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man. Thus the saints (Mary) petitions Jesus for Catholics!
When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).
Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).
James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.

 

[Dogknox20]

He said she would bear God... not that she was literally God's mother. You seem unable or unwilling to understand the distinction.
Was Jesus only God after his human body was formed?

Jesus was BOTH 100% God & 100% Man!
Mary gave Birth to God as well as birth to the Man! Jesus was GOD! 14 God became FLESH and lived among us!
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Wildswanderer Jesus is God!
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42 In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
John could here the voice of Mary from his mother Elizabeth's womb! Thus Jesus could also be Devine in the womb of Mary.. Devine before he was born!
43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?!

Mother of my Lord (Large L)! Mother of my GOD!

 

[Dogknox20]

He said she would bear God... not that she was literally God's mother. You seem unable or unwilling to understand the distinction.
Was Jesus only God after his human body was formed?

.
To keep on topic.....
Acts 17:11
Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

The Bereans were MORE Noble because they reject "Scriptures ALONE"! They listened to the Church plus checked the scriptures; They needed Church to arrive at truth! Paul was teaching "Christ Resurrected" this is NOT found in their OT scriptures!
Those in Thessalonica were LESS NOBAL because they believed in "Scriptures ALONE!" they rejected the teaching of the Church! BUT....

Wildswanderer but they will have an excuse when they stand in judgement.. Their OT scriptures do NOT have written "Listen to the Church" as we have in our NT! The Protestor, the people of the De-Formation will have NO excuse when they stand in Judgement .. They are to be treated as Pagan: A person OUTSIDE of God' family!
Wildswanderer If you are OUTSIDE you cannot at the same time be INSIDE!

Clearly those in Thessalonica rejected Jesus and his Church they were the first Protestants!
Acts 17:13 But when the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, some of them went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Wildswanderer once more your Opinion!
Look..
Solomon was the wisest man to ever have lived, he Honored his mother by standing for her, He Bowed to his Mother, he brought into the Throne room a Throne placed next his David' Throne!
The King promised to do what his Mother requests of him for Adonijah, the son of Haggith.
Bathsheba was petitioning the King for another person!
1 Kings 2:16 Now I have one request to make of you. Do not refuse me.”
“You may make it,” she said.
17 So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.”
18 “Very well,” Bathsheba replied, “I will speak to the king for you.”
19 When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, bowed down to her and sat down on his throne. He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand.
20 “I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, “Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.”

The Mother of the King is ALWAYS called "Queen Mother!"
Wildswanderer You dishonor the Mother of the King (Jesus) you dishonor the King himself!
Yes Jesus you are grand but your mother Mary is just an ordinary woman.. nothing special!

As all the saints in heaven do they ALL hand the prayers of us on earth to God!
The book of Revelation shows the saints worshipping God, singing hymns, playing instruments, making requests to Christ to avenge their martyrdom, and offering prayers for the saints on earth (Rev. 4:10, 5:8, 6:9-11).
Wildswanderer Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man. Thus the saints (Mary) petitions Jesus for Catholics!
When the Lord is angry with Job’s friends because they did not speak rightly about God, he tells them, “Let my servant Job pray for you because I will accept his [prayer], lest I make a terror on you” (Job 42:8).
Paul wrote to the Romans: “I exhort you, brothers, through our Lord Jesus Christ and through the love of the Spirit, to strive with me in prayers to God on my behalf, that I may be delivered from the disobedient in Judaea and that my ministry may be acceptable to the saints in Jerusalem, so that in the joy coming to you through the will of God I may rest with you” (Rom. 15:30-32).
James says: “Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (James 5:16-17). Thus, according to Scripture, God wants us to pray for one another. This must mean that prayer for one another cannot detract from the role of Jesus Christ as our one mediator with God.
The reason we pray to the saints is that they are still members of the Body of Christ. Remember, the life which Christ gives is eternal life; therefore, every Christian who has died in Christ is forever a member of the Body of Christ. This is the doctrine which we call the Communion of the Saints. Everyone in Christ, whether living or dead, belongs to the Body of Christ.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,"

No priests or anyone else between us and God, only Jesus.


"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

Catholics want to put the curtain back up that God ripped down.

Exodus 20:4-5
“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

Catholic church creates images that people bow to.



Matthew 12:46-50
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Hmmm, Jesus didn't ask permission from Mom.

 

[Dogknox20]

No priests or anyone else between us and God, only Jesus.

You are reaching for straw to build a straw man!
Between us and God, only Jesus.
Go to Jesus directly; Catholics have the saints to go to Jesus! Always Jesus goes to God! We ask Jesus in prayer to get us help from God!
The Saints ask Jesus! For us!
John 20:21–23, Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” Then he breathed on them, saying, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Wildswanderer The Holy Church has the Authority of God to forgive sins! Jesus established ONLY one Church he built it on ROCK! The very Church he established has the AUTHORITY of Jesus to forgive or retain sins! All man made church MUST reject the scriptures to reject the ONLY Church Jesus is ALWAYS with to the very end of time!
1 John 5:16
If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that.

Wildswanderer you should pray and God will give them life.
Clearly Praying for another person saves! Praying for the dead God will give them life!

Moses made an image of a snake to save all who looked at it! It was a IMAGE of a snake! So you are WRONG!

Colossians 2:9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Wildswanderer Your Jesus is NOT God! Your Jesus was NOT born God!

 

[Wildswanderer]

Go to Jesus directly;

I do. No need to pray to " saints" who are just normal, sinful people.

 

[Wildswanderer]

The Holy Church has the Authority of God to forgive sins!

Nope, that was only for the disciples. He never said that to the Pope.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Wildswanderer you should pray and God will give them life.
Clearly Praying for another person saves! Praying for the dead God will give them life!

Wow, what a twisting of scripture. That is sad. It's not about people who are already in heaven or hell.

 

[sojourner]

Did he though? Those books had been subject of intense debate from the time of Jesus. They were not considered Scripture by the Jewish people. Much of the early church did not include them either. They were not even part of the Catholic canon until 1547. So though Luther did begin the process by which the commonly accepted Protestant Bible came about, it’s foundation was laid 1500 year earlier.

Hmm… why, then we’re they included in the early codices of the LXX? Why did Augustine of Hippo accept them as canonical during his time in the late 300s? No, I don’t agree with your assessment.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Moses made an image of a snake to save all who looked at it! It was a IMAGE of a snake! So you are WRONG!

What? That's a type of Jesus... what's that got to do with your fantasy purgatory?

 

[sojourner]

She's not Jesus' actual mother either. He always exists. God doesn't have a mother.

The Bible makes a different claim.

 

[sojourner]

No priests or anyone else between us and God, only Jesus.


"This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

You don’t have any idea what a priest is, in that context, do you.

A priest is one who makes the sacrifice that expiates sin. A presbyter (that office normally referred to as “priest”) simply stands in for Christ when doing the “ABCs”: absolving sin, blessing souls, and consecrating the Eucharistic bread and wine. Christ is doing the absolving, the blessing, and the consecrating, but since the church is the Body of Christ, the presbyter is simply appointed to be the physical manifestation of Jesus doing these things. S/he is no more a “go-between” or an “intermediary” than you are.

Catholics want to put the curtain back up that God ripped down.

 

[metis]

How does my question make division? Can you answer to the question, why don’t they live by it, why they go against its teachings?

That's the same kind of mindset that led me to leave the fundamentalist church I grew up in that was so utterly bigoted and nonsensical. When I got into my undergrad work, I took some theology courses, and my studies continued into my grad work as religion is one of the "five basic institutions" all societies have. Thus, your posts on this actually is a good reminder why I left that nonsense in my mid-20's, never to return.

My recommendation: study, but use all sorts of sources, which is what I did btw. A good history of the early Church would be well advised, but make sure it doesn't just reflect one set of viewpoints.

BTW, the best I read along this line was a book entitled "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's an Anglican. It's very well documented from 2nd century writings that do help to make some things clearer. Unfortunately, it's out of print and the only place I saw it was as a used book at Amazon for roughly $50,

 

[metis]

It would seem to be pretty important to know where your eternal soul is going after death, don't you think?

Obviously, you don't believe in what Jesus taught when he was asked which was the greatest Commandment? Maybe study, and then maybe even consider believing in what he actually did say, W.

 

[metis]

I do. No need to pray to " saints" who are just normal, sinful people.

So, you don't accept the Apostle's Creed that refers to the "communion if saints", which always was interpretated as being saints both in God's heavenly and earthly Kingdom.

Nope, that was only for the disciples. He never said that to the Pope.

Do you any clue of Jesus' appointments and whom they appointed, and who they appointed, ...? The Bible you use was the result of the canon chosen by the 4th century Church that you continually badmouth out of your own hatred. Maybe consider giving it away some who know how to read and use it.

What? That's a type of Jesus... what's that got to do with your fantasy purgatory?

OK, prove that purgatory is a false interpretation. [I guarantee that you can't]

 

[Dogknox20]

I do. No need to pray to " saints" who are just normal, sinful people.

Saints are In Heaven.. They are sanctified!

 

[sojourner]

That's the same kind of mindset that led me to leave the fundamentalist church I grew up in that was so utterly bigoted and nonsensical. When I got into my undergrad work, I took some theology courses, and my studies continued into my grad work as religion is one of the "five basic institutions" all societies have. Thus, your posts on this actually is a good reminder why I left that nonsense in my mid-20's, never to return.

My recommendation: study, but use all sorts of sources, which is what I did btw. A good history of the early Church would be well advised, but make sure it doesn't just reflect one set of viewpoints.

BTW, the best I read along this line was a book entitled "Tradition In the Early Church" by Dr. Hanson, who's an Anglican. It's very well documented from 2nd century writings that do help to make some things clearer. Unfortunately, it's out of print and the only place I saw it was as a used book at Amazon for roughly $50,

We used “The Story of Christianity,” both volumes, by Gonzales in seminary.

 

[metis]

Unfortunately, this thread clearly shows that religious bigotry is alive & well, and it certainly isn't always in regard to Catholicism.

As a person who's been involved in ecumenical activities for decades now, I frankly often feel more comfortable around Muslims and Jews than some Christians, and probably that's because they're also often verbally attacked as well by some Christians steeped in religious bigotry.

 

[metis]

We used “The Story of Christianity,” both volumes, by Gonzales in seminary.

I haven't read them, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

The irony is that when contemplating converting to Catholicism in my early 30's, I used mostly Protestant theologians, with Martin Marty [Lutheran] being one of my favorites, as I did not trust any single religious source.