Bibles answer to the problem of suffering

[GawdAweful]

Didn't the 'disaster' start with angelic creation?
Satan an angelic cherub started the 'disaster'.
Didn't other angelic creation join Satan in rebelling against their Father and God ?

God as Creator first created the invisible spirit realm
Then branched out, so to speak, in creating a visible material realm.
What is wrong with the earth?
Adam nor Eve were forced to obey Satan.
They chose to have Satan as their god over their Creator.
Satan never challenged God's strength or power.
Rather, Satan challenges all of us that under adverse conditions we would not worship God. Both Job and Jesus proved Satan a liar and so can we. - Job 2 vs 4,5

Let's say God created Adam and Eve without reproduction.
They both disobeyed God. That would have been the end of humankind.
God purposed the earth be inhabited with descendants of Adam and Eve.
- Gen. 1 v 28

God has permitted temporary suffering because in the end he knows all suffering will end. No one will ever be able to point a finger at God saying they did not have a choice.
God forces no one to love and obey him. We choose that of our own free will.

The difference is he could have made MANY individuals and only those sinning would be held accountable...just like the angels....instead of not thinking ahead (wisdom?) and starting things off with only 2 people. Also, not only humans paid the price. Innocent animals have been tortured, starved, and killed as a result. (The evidence indicates the earthly creation was already 'marred' by suffering and death amongst the animals before Adam & Eve are said to have arrived)

 

[GawdAweful]

No one will ever be able to point a finger at God saying they did not have a choice.

But I did not have a choice to be born without sin, unlike the angels, Adam & Eve, or Jesus. I do blame the NT God for favoritism and having stacked the deck against mankind.

Of course I don't believe the Bible is from God, but if it was there are gaping holes in the Bible answers suffering claim.

 

[mestupid]

Do you ever quote the first three Gospels, or do they not conform to your beliefs?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

God got placed in the heavens by the writers of 1 Kings 8. Funny how you people wanna pick where yer God is or isnt.
Now tell us exactly where is "the heaven of the heavens."

And how did you end up placed on earth?
Nothing living comes from something non living.

In speaking of heaven where God resides [ 1st Kings 8 vs 23,30,32,34,36,39,45,49 ]
we are not talking about some physical or material heavens.
It's those 'physical heavens' that can not contain God- 1st Kings 8 v 27

Isaiah [57 v 15 ] states God dwells in the height and holy place. -Psalm 115 v 3
Jesus appeared in God's presence in heaven itself.-Hebrews 9 v 24

So, we know God does not dwell in the material/physical realm, but a lofty heavenly home in the spirit realm where the resurrected ascended to heaven Jesus appeared.

During Jesus 1000-year reign over earth new scrolls or new books will be opened and no doubt at that time mankind will know more details.

 

[GawdAweful]

During Jesus 1000-year reign over earth new scrolls or new books will be opened and no doubt at that time mankind will know more details.

Where does it say 'new' scrolls?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Do you ever quote the first three Gospels, or do they not conform to your beliefs?

There is only one gospel with four writers.
The gospel according to Matthew
The gospel according to Mark
The gospel according to Luke
The gospel according to John
Meaning all four accounts put together make up one gospel.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Where does it say 'new' scrolls?

Revelation 20 v 12 is the thought I had in mind. 'New' in the sense that they are not 'old'. Not completed before the time of Jesus 1000-year reign over earth. Completed then because now there can be changes to God's book of life- Psalm 69 v 28

 

[mestupid]

Why do they differ so much? Surely the raising of Lazarus was such a great event that the "writers" of the other "Gospels" could not have simply "overlooked" it. There is also the 1 year or 3 year problem. There is no 1 gospel, except for the fact that people simply choose to ignore the difference, because the reality would not gel with what they have been taught by the "leaders" of their beliefs. And by the way, your answering yourself?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Exactly. If God already had a perfect heaven with angels to share love and worship, why create the earth with such potential for disaster.
It's like creating the perfect car, but then also going ahead with the Ford Pinto that will explode on impact. (flashback to the 1970's)

Apparently angelic creation was completed before any angelic downfall.
Adam and Eve were created with human perfection.
The defect was by their own choice.

When you mention creating or having the perfect car, doesn't even a perfect car come with warranty requirements ? If something goes wrong we can expect to be taken care of. But that requires us to live up to our obligation in keeping warranty requirements.
If the warranty is ignored that can transmit into a perfect car becoming a defective car.

A&E went ahead choosing the Ford Pinto over a perfectly smooth-running model.
A&E ignored the 'warranty' [don't eat] and that is what transmitted into our sin-like birth defect with only one way for a perfect repair.

P.S. -Isaiah 11 vs 5-9 animal kind will be in harmony with humankind.

 

[Me Myself]

So God cares more about us being "free moral agents" than he does our well-being?

Pretty much it.

He can make all of us happy, truly and most deeply happy without any regret and with the most profound peace and no one ever going to hell or suffering anything.

It´s just that it is REALLY important to him that we have the ability to hurt ourselves, for some reason.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Why do they differ so much? Surely the raising of Lazarus was such a great event that the "writers" of the other "Gospels" could not have simply "overlooked" it. There is also the 1 year or 3 year problem. There is no 1 gospel, except for the fact that people simply choose to ignore the difference, because the reality would not gel with what they have been taught by the "leaders" of their beliefs. And by the way, your answering yourself?

Was the resurrection of Luke 7 vs 11-17 overlooked ?
Was the resurrection of Jairus daughter overlooked ?
- Matt. 9 vs 18-26; Mark 5 vs 21-43; Luke 8 vs 40-56
Again putting all four accounts together completes the gospel.

All gospel writers did not copy cat each other.
What one omits another takes up.
The four complete one picture.

I can't think of any 1yr / 3yr problem ?

 

[Pegg]

Psalm 139 seems to say otherwise.

He still knowingly designed people in such a way that they would create a less than ideal situation. One who sees Him as The Creator cannot get around that.

Man is seen as having made the problem. Now, tracing things back a step, who is it who made the people who, in turn, made the problem?

God created man with a set purpose in mind, and he created them to fulfill that purpose under his guidance.

What happens if you remove something from its proper context and use it in a way that its not designed for? Problems. To illustrate, a doctor may prescribe a certain type of medicine for a specific illness you have. If you use that medicine in the way directed by your doctor, then things should work out fine. But what if you ignore the doctors instructions and decide to use the medicine differently?
Then you will likely run into problems and your condition may not improve but become worse.

For this reason, God told Adam and Eve to remain obedient to his set laws. As soon as they went against the laws God had set for them, they ran into problems.

That doesn't answer my question, though.

I had indicated that, considering your combined views that 1) 'we are living in a world without our Creator as a protective ruler' and 2) we 'try to do it all on our own', that we would actually not have a choice but to do things on our own. So in that paradigm, it's not willful disobedience on our part that we attempt to operate apart from God, but a result of God opting not to rule and protect us. My question is, what other choice would we have in that scenario?

if this situation was everlasting, then you'd make a very good point and I would be very sceptical of a loving God who chose not to rectify that situation for us.

But the case is that God is soon going to bring mankind back under his protective care. So we will then have a choice as to whether we want to live under his rulership or not.

I see what you're saying, and I agree that there is a Paradise-esque dimension in which such turmoils don't exist. However, I don't see the presence of those things in this dimension as indicators that He isn't also currently ruler of this dimension as well. In other words, I think different dimensions can have different features, some which come with challenges, but that in no way has to mean that God isn't also just as much in charge of those dimensions as He is in the more comfortable ones.

according to the bible, there is only one ruler of this world

The night before his death, he warned his disciples about this ruler, calling him “the ruler of this world.” He also said this powerful ruler, or god, “will be cast out.” (John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11)
So christians have been of the understanding that satan the devil is the one who has control of things for now... but his 'short period of time' will end and God will resume rulership of mankind and the earth.

 

[GawdAweful]

Apparently angelic creation was completed before any angelic downfall.
Adam and Eve were created with human perfection.
The defect was by their own choice.

When you mention creating or having the perfect car, doesn't even a perfect car come with warranty requirements ? If something goes wrong we can expect to be taken care of. But that requires us to live up to our obligation in keeping warranty requirements.
If the warranty is ignored that can transmit into a perfect car becoming a defective car.

A&E went ahead choosing the Ford Pinto over a perfectly smooth-running model.
A&E ignored the 'warranty' [don't eat] and that is what transmitted into our sin-like birth defect with only one way for a perfect repair.

P.S. -Isaiah 11 vs 5-9 animal kind will be in harmony with humankind.

But why should everyone in the car suffer because the driver is stupid. It's different if we had a choice, but we were put in the car without a choice.

The NT God had many options for creating earth, he chose a less than perfect way if there was another option available....and there was.

As for the animals, Romans 1:20,21 says we can tell God's qualities from the things made. The animals he made are rife with weapons and instincts for killing and drawing blood. If what he made is so violent, what does that say about Him?

 

[Pegg]

Yes, in the messianic age and in the World to Come. Not now, and not by man's doing.

Christian theology has no impact on my beliefs.

None of what you posted states that there will be no suffering in life.

The messianic age is exactly when we expect all these promises of God to be fulfilled. So it seems we believe the same things.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Pretty much it.
He can make all of us happy, truly and most deeply happy without any regret and with the most profound peace and no one ever going to hell or suffering anything.
It´s just that it is REALLY important to him that we have the ability to hurt ourselves, for some reason.

Now is the time for 'spiritual healing' and 'spiritual happiness'. The physical will start with Jesus' coming 1000-year reign over earth.- Rev. 22 v 2.
What is hurtful about Jesus new commandment of John 13 vs 34,35 ?

No one will go to hell after everyone in hell is resurrected out of hell.
- Revelation 20 vs 13,14; 1 v 18
Emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic 'second death'.

Often the clergy teach a 'non-biblical forever burning religious-myth' hell instead of the biblical hell [sheol] where Jesus went to hell when Jesus died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31,32.

Jesus taught the dead are in a sleep-like state at John 11 vs 11-14
Jesus was well educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures.
Jesus knew the dead know nothing.
- Ecclesiastes 9v 5; Psalms : 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13
So, the Bible's hell is just the common grave for mankind [not demonkind ].
Those sleeping death's sleep are resurrected out of hell [sheol] to either heaven for some [Rev 20 v 6], or the majority of mankind [John 3 v 13] resurrected back to life on earth during Jesus 1000-year reign over a paradisaic earth.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But why should everyone in the car suffer because the driver is stupid. It's different if we had a choice, but we were put in the car without a choice.
The NT God had many options for creating earth, he chose a less than perfect way if there was another option available....and there was.
As for the animals, Romans 1:20,21 says we can tell God's qualities from the things made. The animals he made are rife with weapons and instincts for killing and drawing blood. If what he made is so violent, what does that say about Him?

Adam turned out to be a terrible driver.
Don't we have the choice Not to drive as Adam drove?
We can keep up warranty requirements even in our imperfect state.

It is Satan that is now the 'god' of this world of badness. [2nd Cor. 4 v 4]

Jehovah God put Animal instincts [ Gen. 9 v 2 ] in place so they would not become extinct by ruthless men. What does Isaiah write about the future for animal kind at Isaiah 11 vs 5-9 ?

 

[mestupid]

There is no mention or reference to Lazarus in any Gospel except John. The Gospel of John records 3 years of the ministry of Jesus, While MML records only 1.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think the real Biblical response to the problem of suffering can be found in Job. It goes on for quite a while, but here's a sample:



IOW, "might makes right, so don't question my judgement until you're as powerful as I am."

So... nobody has any thoughts on this?

IMO, the Book of Job is the most direct exploration of the problem of suffering in the Bible, and its answer is clear: you're a puny human, God is God, and it's not your place to judge what God does, so suck it up and deal.

Anybody agree? Disagree?

 

[mestupid]

I am way off topic here. I got interested in the off topic discussions. My mistake. Sorry.

 

[Me Myself]

So... nobody has any thoughts on this?

IMO, the Book of Job is the most direct exploration of the problem of suffering in the Bible, and its answer is clear: you're a puny human, God is God, and it's not your place to judge what God does, so suck it up and deal.

Anybody agree? Disagree?

That is pretty much the argument Job´s god uses.

I believe he is a bully.