Biblical Contradictions

[waitasec]

Heavens no. I can prove it.. Waiting for your evidence first...

i see a disconnect here...

you take these words at face value and then claim it isn't blind faith?

and whats wrong with blind faith...isn't that what jesus wants from you
john 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

are you dissin' jesus?

:tsk:

 

[james2ko]

i see a disconnect here...

you take these words at face value and then claim it isn't blind faith?

and whats wrong with blind faith...isn't that what jesus wants from you
john 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen Me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

are you dissin' jesus?

:tsk:

FB asked if its "JUST" blind faith. It isn't. It's both. Faith and evidence.

 

[waitasec]

FB asked if its "JUST" blind faith. It isn't. It's both. Faith and evidence.

sure whatever bridges the gap i suppose

 

[fallingblood]

1. I'm not going to sit here and spend time going over the hundreds of scriptures referring to Christ. The point is Christ pointed out the scriptures in the OT which referred to Him. The text doesn't tell us which ones but based on Christ's own testimony, logic would dictate, Jonah's 3 days and 3 nights in the fish was one of them.

But if we read that story, it doesn't say anything about a future individual, or that it would ever be a sign. Logic would then dictate that either Jesus was making things up, confused, referring to something else, or reading something into the text that wasn't there.

If you can't point out said scriptures though, there is no reason for anyone else to accept that they are there. You're working on blind faith, and for me, that isn't good enough.

2. Christ said He did and like I said, I'll believe Him over you any day.

So then it's blind faith?

3. No suggestion by Jonah was required. Christ was simply the first to introduce the parallel. Nothing strange about that.

Actually, it is strange. If Jonah made no suggestion, then the parallel made by Jesus simply is reading something into the text that wasn't there. One can call that making things up, or simply being confused, but it doesn't lend itself to a logical conclusion.

 

[fallingblood]

(rolling up sleeves) Present your historical and biblical evidence that He wasn't in the grave three days and three nights.

I'm going to use Mark as it is the earliest Gospel. Mark 15 says that Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning. At three in the afternoon, that same day, Jesus dies. Verse 42 tells us what day this is, the day of preparation, or the day before the Sabbath.

Sabbath started in the evening, at sundown. It was just before this that the body of Jesus was taken from the cross and put into the tomb. In other words, this happened Friday night according to western reckoning.

Chapter 16 then opens with, "when the Sabbath was over..." So from sundown on Friday, to sundown on Saturday, nothing occurred. At this point, some women are buying spices to anoint the body of Jesus. So that is happening on Saturday evening.

Verse 2 states that these women went to the tomb very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. By the time they arrive, Jesus is gone. So we have to assume that Jesus had been gone for at least a little time by the early morning on Sunday.

So we are looking at a time period (according to Mark) from Friday night, to maybe Sunday morning. That is not 3 days and 3 nights. That is pretty much 1 day, and 2 nights.

Matthew and Luke follow the same basic timeline.

 

[james2ko]

But if we read that story, it doesn't say anything about a future individual, or that it would ever be a sign. Logic would then dictate that either Jesus was making things up, confused, referring to something else, or reading something into the text that wasn't there.

1. My conclusion is derived from existing textual evidence (words of Christ). Yours is based on an absence of it based on an assumption (Christ making things up). Based on the laws of logic, this is considered an argument from silence:

An argument from silence (also called argumentum e silentio in Latin) is generally a conclusion drawn based on the absence of evidence, rather than the existence of evidence.Argument from silence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

If you can't point out said scriptures though, there is no reason for anyone else to accept that they are there. You're working on blind faith, and for me, that isn't good enough.

2. The scriptures were clearly pointed out. It's your problem if you can't, won't, or are unable to accept them.

So then it's blind faith?

3. Faith is involved but it isnt blind. There's plenty of biblical evidence available suggesting He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.

Actually, it is strange. If Jonah made no suggestion, then the parallel made by Jesus simply is reading something into the text that wasn't there. One can call that making things up, or simply being confused, but it doesn't lend itself to a logical conclusion.

4. Your logic is flawed. There's nothing to read into Christ's text. Christ's statement was plain and unequivocal. He stated the parallel of how He would be in the grave three days and three nights, as Jonah was in the fish. It was Christ who made the parallel, not Jonah. You're forming a conclusion on something Jonah did not say which, once again, renders it an argument from silence.

 

[waitasec]

1. My conclusion is derived from existing textual evidence (words of Christ). Yours is based on an absence of it based on an assumption (Christ making things up). Based on the laws of logic, this is considered an argument from silence:

based on the laws of logic, your argument is an appeal to ignorance...

 

[james2ko]

I'm going to use Mark as it is the earliest Gospel. Mark 15 says that Jesus was crucified at nine in the morning. At three in the afternoon, that same day, Jesus dies. Verse 42 tells us what day this is, the day of preparation, or the day before the Sabbath.

Sabbath started in the evening, at sundown. It was just before this that the body of Jesus was taken from the cross and put into the tomb. In other words, this happened Friday night according to western reckoning.

Chapter 16 then opens with, "when the Sabbath was over..." So from sundown on Friday, to sundown on Saturday, nothing occurred. At this point, some women are buying spices to anoint the body of Jesus. So that is happening on Saturday evening.

Verse 2 states that these women went to the tomb very early in the morning, on the first day of the week, which is Sunday. By the time they arrive, Jesus is gone. So we have to assume that Jesus had been gone for at least a little time by the early morning on Sunday.

So we are looking at a time period (according to Mark) from Friday night, to maybe Sunday morning. That is not 3 days and 3 nights. That is pretty much 1 day, and 2 nights.

Matthew and Luke follow the same basic timeline.

Let's take a closer look:

Christ's crucifixion took place on Passover day, the 14th of Abib (or Nisan), the first month in God’s Sacred Calendar. This occurred in the year A.D. 31, in which Passover fell on a Wednesday. Many fail to consider the prophecy that the Messiah would be "cut off…in the middle of the week" (Dan 9:26-27). Wednesday falls in the middle of the week--the very day upon which Passover fell in A.D. 31.

That Passover was a preparation day, in that it preceded an annual Sabbath. This annual Sabbath (called the First Day of Unleavened Bread) was called a high Sabbath or "high day" (John 19:31) and fell on a Thursday that year. It was on this day that the high priest and the Pharisees came to Pilate to ensure that Christ’s tomb was securely guarded and sealed (Matt. 27:62-66).


Mark 15:42 refers to Friday which is also a preparation day (any day before any Sabbath-high or weekly-is a preparation day). Mark 16:1 records what took place on that Friday: "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him." (Verse 2 jumps to Sunday morning.) The phrase, "and when the Sabbath was past," refers to the high day that occurred on Thursday. Since the women could not buy spices on the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday), Friday was the only time they could have done so.


Luke 23:56 states, "And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment." After buying the spices, they returned and prepared them to be applied to Christ’s body in the tomb, which they planned to do after resting on the weekly Sabbath.

Luke 24:1 states, "Now upon the first day of the week [Sunday], very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them." The women found the tomb empty (vs 3). Two angels in shining garments informed them that Christ was already risen (vs. 4-6). Mark 16:2 states that the women were present "at the rising of the sun. This means Christ was resurrected before sunrise.

John 20:1 further tells us that Mary Magdalene came early "when it was yet dark" and found the stone that sealed the tomb was already rolled away. At this point, Christ was already resurrected. He was resurrected sometime Saturday evening--three days and three nights later, just as He prophesied.

The chart in point 6 is a detailed, chronological timeline that may help visualize the sequence of events:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2900803-post106.html

 

[james2ko]

based on the laws of logic, your argument is an appeal to ignorance...

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. I have irrefutable, textual evidence of Christ actually saying He would be in the grave three days and three nights. I suggest you take a logic 101 course so you can speak about it intelligently.

 

[waitasec]

Mark 15:42 refers to Friday which is also a preparation day (any day before any Sabbath-high or weekly-is a preparation day).

you've got yourself a dilemma
unless you concede this was absolutely wrong...

Who said anything about Him dying on Friday??? He died on Wednesday and was resurrected sometime Saturday evening.

what day did he cry out
"why have you forsaken me?" wednesday, thursday or friday at 3 in the afternoon?

 

[waitasec]

An appeal to ignorance is an argument for or against a proposition on the basis of a lack of evidence against or for it. I have irrefutable, textual evidence of Christ actually saying He would be in the grave three days and three nights. I suggest you take a logic 101 course so you can speak about it intelligently.

actually, its refutable. these are merely claims based on hearsay

 

[james2ko]

you've got yourself a dilemma
unless you concede this was absolutely wrong...

As any of our Jewish members will concur, any day prior to a High Sabbath (Holy Day)-no matter what day of the week it falls on or Seventh-Day Sabbath is a preparation day. Poisonshady and I spoke about this in detail on another thread and He also agrees to this. So please spare yourself the embarrassment this time. Wasn't this morning's embarrassment enough for you?

what day did he cry out "why have you forsaken me?" wednesday, thursday or friday at 3 in the afternoon?

It was on the Passover, Wednesday, the day before a High Sabbath on Thursday (First Day of Unleavened bread).

 

[james2ko]

actually, its refutable. these are merely claims based on hearsay

Hearsay? I consulted my 40+ translations, including the original Greek, and they all contain Christ's words. No hearsay..just your typical circular logic.

 

[mycorrhiza]

Hearsay? I consulted my 40+ translations, including the original Greek, and they all contain Christ's words. No hearsay..just your typical circular logic.

They contain what they claim Jesus said. There were no sound recording devices back then, and the gospels were written down at least 20 years after his death, so there's absolutely no guarantee that the words we find in the Bible are the actual words of Jesus.

 

[james2ko]

They contain what they claim Jesus said. There were no sound recording devices back then, and the gospels were written down at least 20 years after his death, so there's absolutely no guarantee that the words we find in the Bible are the actual words of Jesus.

We can say the same for the liberal scholars/theologians/critics who claim this conclusion. Let's see, believe the One whom some of His disciples gave up good jobs and actually died for, or some scholar with nothing but an opinion? Easy choice for me.

 

[waitasec]

Hearsay? I consulted my 40+ translations, including the original Greek, and they all contain Christ's words. No hearsay..just your typical circular logic.

there are no original greek copies anywhere.
you cannot, in fact, no one can confirm these are christ's exact words...

all we have are copies of copies of copies based on an oral tradition that circulated for decades before they were written down...and not by any of jesus' contemporaries either...

even paul never refers to the gospels...not even once

 

[waitasec]

As any of our Jewish members will concur, any day prior to a High Sabbath (Holy Day)-no matter what day of the week it falls on or Seventh-Day Sabbath is a preparation day. Poisonshady and I spoke about this in detail on another thread and He also agrees to this. So please spare yourself the embarrassment this time. Wasn't this morning's embarrassment enough for you?



It was on the Passover, Wednesday, the day before a High Sabbath on Thursday (First Day of Unleavened bread).

what day is the 1st day of the week?
sunday...right?

mark 16:2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb...

the sabbath is from sundown on friday until the appearance of three stars in the sky on saturday night mark 16:1

16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body....
then "just after sunrise" and usually sunday comes after saturday


mark 14:1
14 Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away (wednesday)
14:12 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, 1 day away (the night he is arrested-thursday)
mark 15:1 And straightway in the morning the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes (the day he was crucified/passover-friday)
mark 15:42 42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, (day he was crucified-friday)
mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.(next day saturday)
mark 16:2 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, (sunday)


i wonder why mary, mary and salome didn't anoint jesus saturday night after buying the spices...
the plot thickens

 

[james2ko]

what day is the 1st day of the week?
sunday...right?

mark 16:2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb...

the sabbath is from sundown on friday until the appearance of three stars in the sky on saturday night mark 16:1

16 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body....then "just after sunrise" and usually sunday comes after saturday

What you are failing to see is there are two preparation days (wed and fri) and two Sabbaths (one High Sabbath and the weekly Sabbath-thur and sat) between His death and resurrection. This is confirmed in Matthew's account:

Mat 28:1 "Now after the Sabbath(s) [plural in the Greek], as the first day of the week began to dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see the tomb. "​

 

[fallingblood]

Let's take a closer look:

You're not taking a closer look. You're making something up that isn't in Mark. Mark makes it clear that the crucifixion happened on a Friday.

Also, there is debate as to what year this even occurred. The general acceptance is usually 30 C.E. Not that it matters, as Mark makes it clear that it was a Friday.

That Passover was a preparation day, in that it preceded an annual Sabbath. This annual Sabbath (called the First Day of Unleavened Bread) was called a high Sabbath or "high day" (John 19:31) and fell on a Thursday that year. It was on this day that the high priest and the Pharisees came to Pilate to ensure that Christ’s tomb was securely guarded and sealed (Matt. 27:62-66).

You're ignoring what Mark states, and making up something new. You're conflating at least two stories here, and pretending that they say the same thing. They don't.

Mark makes it clear that it was Friday.

Mark 15:42 refers to Friday which is also a preparation day (any day before any Sabbath-high or weekly-is a preparation day). Mark 16:1 records what took place on that Friday: "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him." (Verse 2 jumps to Sunday morning.) The phrase, "and when the Sabbath was past," refers to the high day that occurred on Thursday. Since the women could not buy spices on the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday), Friday was the only time they could have done so.

None of this is correct. First, not any day before Sabbath is a preparation day at least not in the sense that Mark is using. Mark states that it was Friday that Jesus was crucified. How do we know this? Because he called it the day of preparation for the Sabbath. This was understood as meaning Friday.

When the sabbath was past, which was Saturday at sundown, they could certainly have bought spices. Sabbath was done after all. So no, Friday wasn't the only day they could have done so. You're simply making things up. And rest of your post is taking different accounts and mashing them together to make your own Gospel.


Mark is clear on the dates he is talking about. There is no need to do mental gymnastics in order to explain away something that you don't like.

 

[fallingblood]

1. My conclusion is derived from existing textual evidence (words of Christ). Yours is based on an absence of it based on an assumption (Christ making things up). Based on the laws of logic, this is considered an argument from silence:

Your conclusion is derived from blind faith. You assume Christ has to be right because you believe Christ has to be right. Yet, you can't show where such things are written.

I'm not saying that he was for sure wrong. However, if you can't point to the verses where it is implied about what he is talking about, then you have nothing, and there is no reason to accept it. You're simply using circular logic.

2. The scriptures were clearly pointed out. It's your problem if you can't, won't, or are unable to accept them.

You never clearly pointed out anything. You said maybe Jonah was one being referred to, and you mentioned the suffering Servant in Isaiah. That is hardly clear as you pointed to no actual verses. You simply referred to stories without explaining how they support your position.

3. Faith is involved but it isnt blind. There's plenty of biblical evidence available suggesting He was in the grave 3 days and 3 nights.

It is blind. The only Biblical evidence available is if you want to ignore what the Gospels say, and instead, make up your own version. Mark is very clear, as I pointed out. Jesus died on Friday, and was resurrected Sunday.

4. Your logic is flawed. There's nothing to read into Christ's text. Christ's statement was plain and unequivocal. He stated the parallel of how He would be in the grave three days and three nights, as Jonah was in the fish. It was Christ who made the parallel, not Jonah. You're forming a conclusion on something Jonah did not say which, once again, renders it an argument from silence.

Jesus didn't just make a parallel. He said it was written that the son of man would be in the grave for three days. He didn't simply say that he would be like Jonah, he said that it was written that he would be.

It isn't a drawing of a parallel, he's stating that it was a prophecy.