Birmingham Muslims pull their kids out of LGBT-inclusive lessons

[The_Fisher_King]

In public schools, religious beliefs should be irrelevant. If they want their kids taught according to their religion only, they can send them to a religious school or homeschool them.

This.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

But, in the end, Islam is an ***-backward primitive belief system in regard to these issues

Not all Muslims are quite so homophobic though.

Their problems stem from the fact that nothing outside of their holy books is acceptable, if one takes the most literal understanding of those books.

Not all Muslims take such a literal understanding of their books.

And there is such a thing as an LGBTQI+ Muslim.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

If they dislike Western culture, why don't they stay in their homeland rather than migrate to Western nations? It's beyond arrogant to expect your host country to forgo it's own culture and values in order to accommodate yours.

You appear to be assuming that all Muslims are immigrants..

 

[Father Heathen]

You appear to be assuming that all Muslims are immigrants..

Of course not all, but what do you suppose the proportions are among those crying about these courses?

 

[Notanumber]

If they dislike Western culture, why don't they stay in their homeland rather than migrate to Western nations? It's beyond arrogant to expect your host country to forgo it's own culture and values in order to accommodate yours.

Islam tends to get whatever it expects.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Of course not all, but what do you suppose the proportions are among those crying about these courses?

I'd wager a fair number were born and bred here (albeit of immigrant 'stock').

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Not all Muslims are quite so homophobic though.

This is true but I'd say that's in spite of Islam, not because of it.

And there is such a thing as an LGBTQI+ Muslim.

They're some of the people who are and will be the worst affected by the homophobia and erasure being put forth by these Muslims. This is what happens when people prioritise their religious dogma over their childrens' well-being. Some of the kids attending (or, rather, not attending) these lessons might even turn out to be LGBT. But their parents don't care about that; they only care that their religion is protected and their standing in the community is not undermined by the 'shame' of having a gay child.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This is true but I'd say that's in spite of Islam, not because of it.

To me, Islam is not just what is found in books, but more importantly in the attitudes, beliefs, practices, and lived experiences of Muslims. This means that homophobia is a part of Islam, but so too is the opposite of it, and we shouldn't discount those Muslims who are both proud of their faith and identify as LGBTQI+. Islam, like any other lived religion, isn't one thing and is in a constant state of flux.

 

[Notanumber]

According to this, the irony is that this culture of anti-homosexuality hasn’t always been the case for Muslims. There’s also a rich history of gender variance and homosexuality within Islam but it’s all been wiped out by colonialism and sidelined in history.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/parkfield-community-school-gay-muslims-cant-pray-gay-away/

It seems that many of Islam’s followers do not understand their religion.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

According to this, the irony is that this culture of anti-homosexuality hasn’t always been the case for Muslims. There’s also a rich history of gender variance and homosexuality within Islam but it’s all been wiped out by colonialism and sidelined in history.

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/parkfield-community-school-gay-muslims-cant-pray-gay-away/

It seems that many of Islam’s followers do not understand their religion.

I did not expect you to come out with a post like this. You've made an excellent point.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

To me, Islam is not just what is found in books, but more importantly in the attitudes, beliefs, practices, and lived experiences of Muslims. This means that homophobia is a part of Islam, but so too is the opposite of it, and we shouldn't discount those Muslims who are both proud of their faith and identify as LGBTQI+. Islam, like any other lived religion, isn't one thing and is in a constant state of flux.

No, definitely not. Discounting LGBT Muslims is tantamount to erasure. But let's be real: it's not realistic for us to pretend they're anything other than a tiny minority of a minority. And the only places they have a realistic chance to thrive openly as LGBT Muslims is in liberal Western democracies. If they try that in any Muslim-majority or Islamic country and they'll shortly find themselves on the receiving end of some very strong Islamic homophobia.

Even in countries like the UK (as we've seen) they're subject to erasure and ostracism from not just their religious community but their immediate family.

If we're going by the actions of Muslims and their actions as well as the doctrine itself, I think it's fair to say that overall homophobia is the overriding trend of Islam & Muslims.

I can even put a number to that sentiment: "52% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegalised" - Guardian

That was 2 years ago but it was in the UK.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

No, definitely not. Discounting LGBT Muslims is tantamount to erasure. But let's be real: it's not realistic for us to pretend they're anything other than a tiny minority of a minority. And the only places they have a realistic chance to thrive openly as LGBT Muslims is in liberal Western democracies. If they try that in any Muslim-majority or Islamic country and they'll shortly find themselves on the receiving end of some very strong Islamic homophobia.

Even in countries like the UK (as we've seen) they're subject to erasure and ostracism from not just their religious community but their immediate family.

If we're going by the actions of Muslims and their actions as well as the doctrine itself, I think it's fair to say that overall homophobia is the overriding trend of Islam & Muslims.

I can even put a number to that sentiment: "52% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegalised" - Guardian

That was 2 years ago but it was in the UK.

I agree that it's a real problem. I identify as genderqueer and polysexual, but I don't have the strength to come out within my community. But Islam is always changing, and it still has to go through the same enlightenment that Christianity has been through.

 

[Notanumber]

I agree that it's a real problem. I identify as genderqueer and polysexual, but I don't have the strength to come out within my community. But Islam is always changing, and it still has to go through the same enlightenment that Christianity has been through.

I respect your point of view but I cannot agree with you when you say that Islam is always changing.

Islam is immutable.

 

[columbus]

I respect your point of view but I cannot agree with you when you say that Islam is always changing.

Islam is immutable.

"Immutable" is an awfully strong word.

I made a point of getting to know the Muslims in a nearby mosque. One thing I heard variations on many many times was "I prefer living in secular USA, because here I can be Muslim the way I think I should. Instead of having the authorities tell me how to be Muslim."

That said, I do think that the fundamental problem with Muslim culture is the inherent conservatism.
That tends to encourage adherents to stay with primitive ethics and science long after more sophisticated, better, versions.
Tom

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I respect your point of view but I cannot agree with you when you say that Islam is always changing.

Islam is immutable.

You've contradicted yourself. You yourself (surprisingly) pointed out that Islam had more acceptance of homosexuality and transgenderism before Western colonialism made those things taboo but not now you say it's immutable, when it's obviously changed at least once before. You can't have it both ways. No religion is unchanging in how it followers apply it.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

I respect your point of view but I cannot agree with you when you say that Islam is always changing.

Islam is immutable.

You sound like one of the more traditionally-minded Muslims lol. Islam has changed throughout its history. And not all Muslims are so traditionally-minded.

 

[Notanumber]

You sound like one of the more traditionally-minded Muslims lol. Islam has changed throughout its history. And not all Muslims are so traditionally-minded.

It stands to reason that some Muslims must have become westernised and liberal, but Islam is the same old same old.

You only need to look at the OP to see that.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It stands to reason that some Muslims must have become westernised and liberal, but Islam is the same old same old.

You only need to look at the OP to see that.

There has always been variation in Muslim thought - you only have to look at the multiplicity of sects that have sprung up throughout Islam's history - this variation has not come about solely through contact with modern-day Western civilisation and liberal ideas. You seem to draw a distinction between Muslims and Islam. For me, the two are inseparable - there is no Islam without the Muslims who live and breathe Islam in its many different facets. More liberally-minded or heterodox Muslims are just as much a part of Islam as the more traditionally-minded Muslims.

 

[Notanumber]

There has always been variation in Muslim thought - you only have to look at the multiplicity of sects that have sprung up throughout Islam's history - this variation has not come about solely through contact with modern-day Western civilisation and liberal ideas. You seem to draw a distinction between Muslims and Islam. For me, the two are inseparable - there is no Islam without the Muslims who live and breathe Islam in its many different facets. More liberally-minded or heterodox Muslims are just as much a part of Islam as the more traditionally-minded Muslims.

I cannot countenance that all westernised Muslims believe in the true Islam. The two are incompatible.

 

[Sakeenah]

I cannot countenance that all westernised Muslims believe in the true Islam. The two are incompatible.

What is a westernised Muslim? And is there a difference between a westernised and Western Muslim?