Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Oh wow, blimey!! I had heard of a story of a family that was saved from Sodom but hadn't heard that bit! Did God ask him to do it, or did he do it on his own back?
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Book of Mormon
- Thread starter drs
- Start date
Oh wow, blimey!! I had heard of a story of a family that was saved from Sodom but hadn't heard that bit! Did God ask him to do it, or did he do it on his own back?
It's in Genesis 19. This happens to be one of the chapters that has been modified by the Joseph Smith translation. I'll post the KJV first then the JST. Take from them what you will.
KJV
1 And there came atwo bangels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servants house, and tarry all night, and awash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a afeast, and did bake bunleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 ¶ But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may aknow them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 aBehold now, I have two bdaughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore ccame they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to asojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.
10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
11 And they smote the men that were at the door of the house with ablindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
12 ¶ And athe men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bbring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the acry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, aget you bout of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that cmocked unto his sons in law.
JST
Verses 1-7 are the same...then:
9 And they said unto him, Stand back. And they were angry with him. 10 And they said among themselves, This one man came in to sojourn among us, and he will needs now make himself to be a judge; now we will deal worse with him than with them.
11 Wherefore they said unto the man, We will have the men, and thy daughters also; and we will do with them as seemeth us good.
12 Now this was after the wickedness of Sodom.
13 And Lot said, Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, plead with my brethren that I may not bring them out unto you; and ye shall not do unto them as seemeth good in your eyes;
14 For God will not justify his servant in this thing; wherefore, let me plead with my brethren, this once only, that unto these men ye do nothing, that they may have peace in my house; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
15 And they were angry with Lot and came near to break the door, but the angels of God, which were holy men, put forth their hand and pulled Lot into the house unto them, and shut the door.
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
No God did not instruct him to do it..But Lot was considered to be a righteous man.After all God sent the Angels to rescue him and his family.And the absence of any mention that Lot was dead wrong for suggesting this..Its written as if it was a sacrificial offering to protect Gods angels..it never says he was wrong for his willingness to hand his daughters over to a bunch of supposed rapist.
Love
Dallas
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Its also in the Quran...Adn they too modified it to not sound so horrendous.
In the Quran Lot offers his daughters for MARRIAGE as an alternative to these men being with other men and raping his guest.(the angels)..
Also later in the story..After the cities were destroyed and Lots family was safe all but his wife..(who died instantly because the truned around to look at the city being destroyed)
The two daughters got Lot drunk so they could have sexual intercourse with him..Thinking it was their responsiblity to repopulate the Earth..And indeed they each got pregnant with a son.(this is in the Bible)
That part is not in the Quran and is considered a lie..Probably because it would appear to be condoning incest.
So here we have a good reason to offer your daughters to be raped..And to committ incest.
Love
Dallas
In the Quran Lot offers his daughters for MARRIAGE as an alternative to these men being with other men and raping his guest.(the angels)..
Also later in the story..After the cities were destroyed and Lots family was safe all but his wife..(who died instantly because the truned around to look at the city being destroyed)
The two daughters got Lot drunk so they could have sexual intercourse with him..Thinking it was their responsiblity to repopulate the Earth..And indeed they each got pregnant with a son.(this is in the Bible)
That part is not in the Quran and is considered a lie..Probably because it would appear to be condoning incest.
So here we have a good reason to offer your daughters to be raped..And to committ incest.
Love
Dallas
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Both of which are modified in the JST version.
Anyway, I digress. Thank you for showing RA how something said or done in the past does not reflect current teaching.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Well, accuracy has never really been Mr. Abanes strong suit.
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Your welcome..That was my point..We are NOT taught in church that its reasonable or OK to do these things NOW...BUT its never been "retracted" either .We are not told that Lot or the daughters did anything wrong.IN fact...the point is that Lot was doing a GOOD thing..Trying to protect the Angels(apparently in male form) and at the same time cure these men of homosexuality(raping men)...
Here...go ahead and take my daughters.Just so long as you stop having sex(raping) men..
Love
Dallas
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Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
Well, accuracy has never really been Mr. Abanes strong suit.
- I gathered that! It is rather scary how these people are actually writers.Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
You only have to look at rabanes himself. He writes anti-mormon books, but claims not to be anti-mormon. He writes anti-harry potter books, but claims that he doesnt hate harry potter.
There are some contradictions there me thinks!
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
Well I dont know if he is a Christian or not..But he's be better off using his talent trying to explain,clarify some of the numerous absurdities in the Bible that no sane person would accpet or teach someone to do in todays times....And why it was O.K back then and in fact considered righteous.
Love
Dallas
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
What makes me laugh about that quote, is that he says he is responding to inaccurate responses from Mormons about Mormonism!!!! It would be like me arguing with him how many books he had written!
rabanes
Member
You shouldn't laugh. Books can be counted by anyone -- you just need a list. That's not the same as a group of people who tend to not tell the whole story, or conceal the full truth, or play semantic games in order to make their group/religion/organization seem as appealing as possible to the general public. I think it's called Non-full Disclosure. Mormons are very adept at it.
I suggest that you read, for just one example of the problem, Michael J. Barrett - Excommunicated for Publicly Confirming LDS Teaching.
Another great article would be: "On Being a Mormon Historian" by former BYU history professor excommunicated for trying to tell the truth about Mormon history.
TY,
RA
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
That is a very good definition of a critic.
What you fail to see here is that if they are "revealing the truth" - then they no longer are mormon's themselves, they don't believe in the doctrines that are taught, so they basically "excommunicated" themselves. It would be like a girl who went to an all girls school and changed sex to a boy, she cant remain at an all girls school as now she is a boy!
Truth_Faith13
Well-Known Member
You also have to remember, that many people who leave the church, for some reason have a great hatred towards it and make stuff up. I watched one video of a man saying that in the temple, they agree to having their throats cut if they ever told anyone what happens in the temple. You ask another, more level headed ex Mormon and they say this is ridiculous and never happened.
Are you going to answer DeepShadows points or did you give up?
rabanes
Member
How perfect.....and predictable. :yes: Yes, a scholar like D, Michael Quinn is just going to make stuff up.
This, of course, has nothing to do with either of these two men, nor does it in any way mean that what they are saying is untrue or absurd. And, in fact, what they say is documented and discussed elsewhere.
"The Truth is out there" (The X-Files),
RA
ra: ?????
rabanes
Member
Deep Shadow is playing games. You know, as well as I do, what Mormons believe about gods, godhood, deification, exaltation, eternal progression, Heavenly Mother, heavenly Father, spirit children, the celestial kingdom, procreation in eternity.....on ad on and on. Just stop wasting time, and I'll respond. Otherwise, it's really juvenile. Go read your standard works, conference speeches, Ensign, the Journal of Discourses, and whatever else you have in your libraries. It's so tiring. And you all just prove the statement made in the previously liked article:
RA
The stake president, LaMar Sleight, read the charges against me: deliberately disobeying his orders by disclosing some of our unpopular doctrines in published letters to several newspapers. The truth of my statements was not in question, he said. The court would hear only evidence of my disobedience to his direct order. . . . We can't hide the gospel. An how much better for the church if we are open and truthful about our doctrines and history, rather than seeing converts feel betrayed by their leaders years later, when anti-Mormon ministries tell them the facts we had tried to conceal. . . .
Just be honest. Stop trying to give what you consider the "milk" to people, rather than the "meat" (read the things they can swallow more easily, and hiding the truths that the average person would probably look at ans say, "what?") The Internet doesn't make it as easy as it was in the 19th-early 20th century to use that tactic.
RA
DeepShadow is not playing games. He is one of the most respected LDS posters here.
You still haven't answered his points (or mine). Care to try again (I'm referring to the difference between central and peripheral teachings)?