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Boycott Hobby Lobby: Trumping Women's Rights

I henceforth vow to boycott Hobby Lobby

  • Yes, without a second thought!

    Votes: 7 35.0%
  • Yes, but I never shopped there anyway...

    Votes: 13 65.0%

  • Total voters
    20

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
That is one view. But people who own companies might find that government is requiring more of them than is reasonable, eg, providing services unrelated to employment, & which go against their religion. The employer isn't preventing the employee from getting the service....just refusing to provide it.

This is part of a larger picture wherein government expects businesses to take over governmental functions. In my business, if I accept certain federally subsidized housing payments, I'm expected to keep track of residents & guests in the apartment. Local government also expects me to surveil my tenants for bed locations, control their porch furniture, & track family relationships among other things. It all gets worse as the years go by.

Yes and if you're a state or federal contractor - or accept subsidies, etc. you are required to abide by specific rules.

if you don't want to provide insurance, then I suppose you don't. You can pay whatever late fee or fine or whatever is associated with it and your employees can purchase off the exchanges and we move ever closer to single payer health care. Health insurance and employment have been frustratingly tied together in this country and I don't know what started that - perhaps unionization - but it's time to move on from that. In the meantime, my company shouldn't be able to say that they don't want me to have an IUD because they think it MIGHT cause abortion (and there are serious statistical problems with that theory) when my DOCTOR thinks it's the best thing for me. And IUDs cost hundreds of dollars.

(And for Frank's point, insurance should absolutely cover transition costs, and it's crappy that his state doesn't for Medicaid. Medical professionals consider it necessary treatment, that should be the standard, not "I don't like the sluts having sex or transphobic attitudes etc.")
 

Phil25

Active Member
You mis-state my preferences. I see the government as too authoritarian in requiring that business
assume ever more responsibility for the employee's welfare outside of the workplace. It seems I prefer
that companies & employees negotiate their own relationship to a greater extent than you would.

As a business owner, I see myself as an individual too.

Correct
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
fantôme profane;3823302 said:
You need to look at the principle reason given for this decision. The reason given was the idea that companies can have religious beliefs, and make decisions for their employees based on those religious beliefs. It does not place limits on what beliefs are allowed or what restrictions can be made.

I don't really get where you see that happening.
As far as I understood they decided upon a specific case. They said that a belief regarding contraceptives can be used to supersede what would otherwise be an obligation. The principle used for this specific case may or may not apply to other cases.

fantôme profane;3823302 said:
Hobby Lobby may decide to limit only certain kinds of contraception. And other company may decide to deny all forms. Another company may deny other forms of medication (medical marijuana?). Can you imagine what a company owned largely by Scientologists might want to deny?

As I have said, I expect other companies to test the limits of the court. To see to what pont beliefs can be used.

fantôme profane;3823302 said:
But even if you think that these things are not going to happen, if you can see that it would be wrong in principle, then you have to see that this is wrong in principle as well.

Here is another source.
What the Supreme Court's Hobby Lobby decision means - CNN.com

To regard principles as wrong or right is an expression of personal opinion, unless we agree on the framework that we are supposed to use to evaluate them.
 

ShivaFan

Satyameva Jayate
Premium Member
I am very happy with this ruling and am sick of "rights" appearing like a rabbit from the hat which do not exist and always end up giving more power to the despotic government and which in the end I am expected to pay one way or another in real money for some "right" that they already have but don't want to pay for the billl, I cannot stand the largese pf such selfish pigs who don't give a **** about my family. Yeah for this decision in suppodt of liberty and freedom and to hell with "free bread".
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yes and if you're a state or federal contractor - or accept subsidies, etc. you are required to abide by specific rules.
Consequently, I refuse to accept such payment.
But still...are you comfortable with government being so intrusive, & forcing citizens to surveil each other as a condition of receiving some kinds of income in fields which aren't related to surveilance? Back in the Clinton presidency, his admin argued to the USSC that public housing tenants forfeited their right against warrantless search & seizure by accepting public money. I oppose government's tendrils ensnaring us this way.

if you don't want to provide insurance, then I suppose you don't. You can pay whatever late fee or fine or whatever is associated with it and your employees can purchase off the exchanges and we move ever closer to single payer health care.
That is just stating the situation. But I reject the situation (requiring someone to provide services which go against their faith, or face high penalties) as unreasonable.

Health insurance and employment have been frustratingly tied together in this country and I don't know what started that - perhaps unionization - but it's time to move on from that. In the meantime, my company shouldn't be able to say that they don't want me to have an IUD because they think it MIGHT cause abortion (and there are serious statistical problems with that theory) when my DOCTOR thinks it's the best thing for me. And IUDs cost hundreds of dollars.
To be unwilling to provide the service is not the same as denying an employee's right to it. Similarly, if I don't provide tithing funds to an employee, I'm not denying their right to religion. If I don't provide them with housing, I'm not denying their right to it. If I don't feed them....you get the picture.

(And for Frank's point, insurance should absolutely cover transition costs, and it's crappy that his state doesn't for Medicaid. Medical professionals consider it necessary treatment, that should be the standard, not "I don't like the sluts having sex or transphobic attitudes etc.")
You wouldn't be attributing the underlined portion to me, now would you?
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I'm against paying for contraceptives across the board you are not required to have sex. I'm atheist agnostic. I also find it wrong that only women get free or insurance paid contraceptives. Males are not allowed to put it on their insurance or at least get a tax write off. Isn't sex as important to men as to woman. Perhaps they would use condoms more often if they didn't have to pay for them.
I agree. This entitlement mentality has got to stop. Contraption is a luxury, not a necessity regarding physical health. There are many laws regarding religious exemption and. contraception seems appros in the list of things people that are not essential for health and well being.

My message to the whiners in this case....buy your own contraceptives.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I agree. This entitlement mentality has got to stop. Contraption is a luxury, not a necessity regarding physical health. There are many laws regarding religious exemption and. contraception seems appros in the list of things people that are not essential for health and well being.

My message to the whiners in this case....buy your own contraceptives.

Actually, in this case, contraception is a cost-savings measure for the insurer, since paying for contraception is a lot cheaper for the insurer than paying for the medical care associated with the pregnancies that will result.

Also, as I mentioned, Hobby Lobby's employee health insurance still covers vasectomies.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
To regard principles as wrong or right is an expression of personal opinion, unless we agree on the framework that we are supposed to use to evaluate them.

There's already a framework: a for-profit corporation is not free to pick and choose its principles.

From the judge's decision in the case eBay vs. Newmark:

Having chosen a for-profit corporate form, the craigslist directors are bound by the fiduciary duties and standards that accompany that form. Those standards include acting to promote the value of the corporation for the benefit of its stockholders. The “Inc.” after the company name has to mean at least that. Thus, I cannot accept as valid for the purposes of implementing the Rights Plan a corporate policy that specifically, clearly, and admittedly seeks not to maximize the economic value of a for-profit Delaware corporation for the benefit of its stockholders—no matter whether those stockholders are individuals of modest means or a corporate titan of online commerce.

Corporations Are Required By Law To Maximize Profits | eBay v. Newmark | Senator Al Franken
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
I don't know all the details of it, personally, but I know the cost depends on what type of birth control you are looking at and whether or not your insurance covers it. If it's not covered by insurance, it's going to be more expensive. Birth control pills are relatively inexpensive, but when you're poor, it's not an insignificant expense. More "invasive" or surgical forms of female contraceptives are definitely not inexpensive, and if you're already poor you probably can't afford it if it isn't covered under insurance. This site provides a pretty good overview of birth control methods and cost ranges.

In general, income inequality has become a serious problem in this country. I don't have a good sense of how bad it is, and I prefer to have numbers for such things rather than speculate. All I know is that when I was making a low wage, the extra expense of that wouldn't have been insignificant. And I wasn't making minimum wage; if I'd been one of those, affording an extra $40 a month or so would have been completely out of the question. I'd need that money for food.

I was talking about the cheaper ( and still reliable ) methods.
How many ( working ) people can't afford 20$-30$ a month on contraceptives?

It is weird to imagine that is a problem to a considerable number of people on the USA, since even on a third world country like mine we can afford them ( except the very poor people, or the ones living on some rural areas where the money's value is widely different ).
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I was talking about the cheaper ( and still reliable ) methods.
How many ( working ) people can't afford 20$-30$ a month on contraceptives?

It is weird to imagine that is a problem to a considerable number of people on the USA, since even on a third world country like mine we can afford them ( except the very poor people, or the ones living on some rural areas where the money's value is widely different ).

If you don't mind me asking, what country do you live in? I've always wondered.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
In what way do you mean that?
Pregnancy is expensive. In general, paying for contraception to a given group of people is cheaper than paying for the medical expenses associated with the few extra pregnancies that would happen if you didn't pay for the contraception.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Something else to consider: the Affordable Care Act was based on the premise that all people have the right to health care. It may have been bass-ackward in its execution (as I've said in other threads, I think it makes a lot less sense than a real government-funded single-payer program, and is probably worse than any system but the one it replaced), but at its core is that idea of a right to health care.

This decision goes against that principle. It makes the right to health care conditional, which implies that it's not a right at all.

It doesn't imply it is not a right. It implies it is a right that is not being properly granted by the executive and legislature powers.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Pregnancy is expensive. In general, paying for contraception to a given group of people is cheaper than paying for the medical expenses associated with the few extra pregnancies that would happen if you didn't pay for the contraception.

Sure, I agree.
 

Drolefille

PolyPanGeekGirl
Consequently, I refuse to accept such payment.
But still...are you comfortable with government being so intrusive, & forcing citizens to surveil each other as a condition of receiving some kinds of income in fields which aren't related to surveilance? Back in the Clinton presidency, his admin argued to the USSC that public housing tenants forfeited their right against warrantless search & seizure by accepting public money. I oppose government's tendrils ensnaring us this way.
I'm comfortable with their being regulations to accepting public money. I disagree that this is "forcing citizens to surveil each other." I think it's "requiring landlords to ensure money they get is being used legitimately." Business owners have extra obligations. Just as a landlord is responsible for the housing being up to code and following the Fair Housing Act.

I would disagree with the Clinton presidency's argument, how did the law settle out? Because people argue lots of things, but to my knowledge you have to have a warrant to search public housing if you're a law enforcement official.

That is just stating the situation. But I reject the situation (requiring someone to provide services which go against their faith, or face high penalties) as unreasonable.
(And I disagree with your rejection.)
If providing health insurance is against their faith - and there are some religions that refuse it as it is gambling or some such - then that's one thing. Unless they're a healthcare provider they're not providing the healthcare services, so they're not doing anything "against their faith." They're providing the benefit of insurance for their employees - which the employees must still pay a portion of.


To be unwilling to provide the service is not the same as denying an employee's right to it. Similarly, if I don't provide tithing funds to an employee, I'm not denying their right to religion. If I don't provide them with housing, I'm not denying their right to it. If I don't feed them....you get the picture.
As I stated, how we have the arrangement in the US is screwed up. But blame the existing insurance companies for the maintenance of the status quo rather than those in the government who wanted single payer. Cause hey, our plan of spending more than everyone else for lower quality care is the best plan, right?

If the government said everyone gets X amount of their salary donated to charity, you would be denying their right to religion if you refused to donate to the charity of their choice. If you decided YOU got to pick what charity they'd donate to and that would be the FSM memorial fund or some such, that would absolutely infringe.



You wouldn't be attributing the underlined portion to me, now would you?
Unless I said you thought that way, I wasn't. I didn't say that. You always presume everything in a post responding to you is about you, it isn't. I often respond to the general topic at hand, not just the single post that provokes an actual response. I'll make it clear if I think you're suggesting something.

Isn't it weird how it's really only birth control that made a splash and how the SCOTUS decision was like "it's cool to object to birth control but we're not going to let you push this decision to say it's cool to object to blood transfusions."

As I noted, their argument is that IUDs and Plan B cause spontaneous abortions by preventing implantation of the egg. First, Plan B probably doesn't prevent implantation, just as hormonal birth control (of which Plan B is a high dose) was thought to prevent implantation but doesn't, Plan B most likely has little to no affect on implantation. It's hard to say for sure because we can't just shove cameras up there 24/7 and check.

Their argument is flawed because 50% of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion (AKA Miscarriage.) Most before they're ever noticed - some before implantation. So IUDs in particular actually PREVENT fertilization which reduces the number of possible pregnancies which reduces the number of miscarriages. Same with Plan B. (And yes, copper only IUDs prevent fertilization too.) So lets say you have 10 potential pregnancies and the IUD causes one spontaneous abortion but prevents 9 pregnancies, on average 5 of those potential pregnanices would have resulted in spontaneous abortion without birth control. So there are actually fewer miscarriages WITH an IUD than WITHOUT.

But this isn't about facts, and it isn't even about faith, it's about what they believe the facts are. You are entitled to your own religion - I would argue a corporation is NOT but individuals ARE- but you aren't entitled to your own facts. Prohibiting Plan B and IUDs increases the number of dead "people" compared to easy access to birth control.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Pregnancy is expensive. In general, paying for contraception to a given group of people is cheaper than paying for the medical expenses associated with the few extra pregnancies that would happen if you didn't pay for the contraception.
Whats wrong with a givin group of people paying for their own contraception? Obviously they have a job and are pulling in an income.

Shouldnt an employer reserve the right decide for themselves if they would include contraception as an incentive or not based on the company policies including the religious view of those who operate the business? Obviously Hobby Lobby made no secret it's Christian based. People should understand that when they apply, or find another company that offers contraception. I figure thats how free enterprise works.

If this dealt with critical health care issues it would be a different story. Imo.
 
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