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Fireside_Hindu
Jai Lakshmi Maa
I just want to deeply thank @Vinayaka and @Kirran for stepping up to the plate and defending women everywhere. Part of the solution has to be that good men make a stand against other men. I am absolutely flabbergasted by some of the comments by Shantanu here. So much so I don't even know how to break it down and where to start.
I want to also make sure I say this - I met far more decent men than sexual predators in India. Many of the culprits were younger men (teens to early twenties). I want my Indian friends here to know I understand that most men are good, but when the the good men stay silent, the nasty ones leave an impression that ruins a woman's perception of all men. So sexual harassment should **** you off too, because it terrifies women and colors their perception and willingness to trust you. As Vinayaka stated, we (women) need you to set your buddies straight, because they only listen to us when the claws come out, and that has ended very badly for thousands of women.
So again, thank you to the real men in the room.
I want to also make sure I say this - I met far more decent men than sexual predators in India. Many of the culprits were younger men (teens to early twenties). I want my Indian friends here to know I understand that most men are good, but when the the good men stay silent, the nasty ones leave an impression that ruins a woman's perception of all men. So sexual harassment should **** you off too, because it terrifies women and colors their perception and willingness to trust you. As Vinayaka stated, we (women) need you to set your buddies straight, because they only listen to us when the claws come out, and that has ended very badly for thousands of women.
So again, thank you to the real men in the room.
FS, I 'eagerly' await the day when some young punk tries something like that at our temple. Cops and charges will ensue, and I will be the first guy to the phone, right after I embarrass the heck out of the young punk in public.
I'm so sorry to hear that this happened to you in India, but not surprised either, as it happened to women in group tours my sampradaya went on. When I went with my daughter, we stayed in pretty close proximity, and it didn't happen, but I was ready then too.
I'm so sorry to hear that this happened to you in India, but not surprised either, as it happened to women in group tours my sampradaya went on. When I went with my daughter, we stayed in pretty close proximity, and it didn't happen, but I was ready then too.
Fireside_Hindu
Jai Lakshmi Maa
I wasn't blind going in and it's a shame I had to be "prepared" for that kind of behavior, but again I try not to focus on the bad ones. To give an example of one of the good guys, I was spending one evening on a rooftop restaurant in Udaipur which was attached to my homestay. Several of the other guests, plus the Indian owners and their friends were there. The two brothers that own the place are single men my age (late twenties, early thirties). I don't drink much but everyone else was and I had about three glasses of wine over the course of a few hours. I was fine, but a bit dizzy (I'm a serious light weight, which is why I don't drink often).
I excused myself early to go to my room (Also an early to bed person. It makes me feel old, but I can't help it)
Seeing I was a bit on the wobbly side, one of the brothers came to help me down the stairs to my room and then stood in the doorway (outside the room) and asked, "Do you have enough water? I can bring you another bottle. Are you okay?" I did and I was and thanked him.
That doesn't sound like a lot because in reality that should be the bare minimum, but it meant a lot to me. That should really tell you about the low bar women have to set because of harassment and constantly suspecting nefarious motives from men.
I was always so proud of my son and his friends. When they went to parties and some girl would get too drunk, they'd call a cab, get her in it, tip the cabbie, and tell him to make sure she made it through her door. That's the dharmic thing to do. He was always quite protective of his three sisters as well. Lucky them. Although my eldest daughter got her black belt in karate, she's never had to use it.
But I agree. By far and away in India most of the people are quite dharmic and honorable. It's sad to see the youth going astray in this way. Hopefully things will change with education and awareness.
But I agree. By far and away in India most of the people are quite dharmic and honorable. It's sad to see the youth going astray in this way. Hopefully things will change with education and awareness.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
India needs some strong social engineering. Many of the rapes are by relatives and people known to the victims, and the victims are many a times less than 14 years of age. It has to do with proliferation of pornography. With access to internet, there are porn parlors even in villages. India needs to control media in this respect and substitute it with some manly past-times, akharas, wrestling, kabaddi, etc.
Here is a list of top 10 countries that stood above all in the race of watching porn online: Pakistan, Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Philippines, Poland.
Top 10 Countries That Watch The Most Porn - Postober, India improves its porn watching ranking, now on 3rd spot.
Here is a list of top 10 countries that stood above all in the race of watching porn online: Pakistan, Egypt, Vietnam, Iran, Morocco, India, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Philippines, Poland.
Top 10 Countries That Watch The Most Porn - Postober, India improves its porn watching ranking, now on 3rd spot.
Islington
Member
Not one to bother too much with politics but you guys taught me a valuable lesson of morality and courage.
So let me just add my voice to FS's in thanking and praising @Vinayaka and @Kirran for raising their voices for the defense of women and the education of the youth.
Aup, congratulations too, on the victory of your champion. I hope that things will change for the best with him.
So let me just add my voice to FS's in thanking and praising @Vinayaka and @Kirran for raising their voices for the defense of women and the education of the youth.
Aup, congratulations too, on the victory of your champion. I hope that things will change for the best with him.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Yes, India expects a lot from him. He has abandoned his family long back (to serve the nation), donates his salary, has a few thousand in bank, no heir to pass on the crown, no inheritance that his family people will fight for. We needed such a dedicated person. He is 67, wants to have another 5-yr term in 2019 to complete his work. Does not wan't people in politics above 75 years of age. Perhaps, if he gets to live that long, he would just leave politics and join an ashram. That is Narendra Modi.
Nyingjé Tso
Dharma not drama
Vanakkam,
I don't know what to say, except that I have lost a huge lot of respect for you, Shantanu. I don't even want to go into details or even try to understand, it' straight up bull****. Dangerous bull****. Period.
As always Vinayaka and Kirran are here and am not the only one to be happy 'bout that. You both are a ray of hope in this thread.
And I totally agree with FS too, I can echo your problems in India too. But I would say, like you, that there are fortunately more good than bad people there. Even in the streets, at the slighest voice raise from a woman, people in the street would rush to help. Got harrassed once, the dude got beaten right in the middle of the street 'til he swore not to touch any other woman like that. I don't want anyone to believe that India is a backward country full of sexual predators and abusers and that it's totally okay that way, like Shantanu seems to want it to be. That's not how it is. Not how it works.
Hugs for you, sister
Aum Namah Shivaya
I don't know what to say, except that I have lost a huge lot of respect for you, Shantanu. I don't even want to go into details or even try to understand, it' straight up bull****. Dangerous bull****. Period.
As always Vinayaka and Kirran are here and am not the only one to be happy 'bout that. You both are a ray of hope in this thread.
And I totally agree with FS too, I can echo your problems in India too. But I would say, like you, that there are fortunately more good than bad people there. Even in the streets, at the slighest voice raise from a woman, people in the street would rush to help. Got harrassed once, the dude got beaten right in the middle of the street 'til he swore not to touch any other woman like that. I don't want anyone to believe that India is a backward country full of sexual predators and abusers and that it's totally okay that way, like Shantanu seems to want it to be. That's not how it is. Not how it works.
Hugs for you, sister
Aum Namah Shivaya
AUP, that's the same here. The 'total stranger' is a myth. Yes it happens.
Fireside_Hindu
Jai Lakshmi Maa
Thank you friend. I was told different things about how responsive help would be if I made a fuss which is why it took my so long to stand up for myself once I was in India, but we did have a hero - another woman- stand up for us (my female friends and I) in Jaipur. Two men were heckling us from a rickshaw, trying to interest us in a very different kind of ride. At first we ignored them. Then I yelled at them in Hindi, then finally in English. An Indian woman was walking a ways head of us and turned to see the commotion. She stopped and as we reached her she marched right up to the rickshaw and really gave them a tongue lashing. They sped off, like the cowards they were. I went up to her and hugged her, thanking her. I wanted her to know that regardless of what some female tourists might come to India for, we did not appreciate being treated that way, and we were frightened. She apologized to us, but I told her it was not her fault and I was just glad she was there.
Shantanu
Well-Known Member
You do not see the basic point that I made, which is not that rape should be condoned by anyone (it should not) but the cultural aspect of the interaction between men and women needs to be borne in mind. In India people do understand that the primary attraction between the sexes is a biological one which allows for a certain degree of normal sexual foreplay encounters. Without that the sexes will never come together for procreation purposes. I think as a Hindu the freedom to make moves on the opposite sex for sexual activity should be preserved by law. Women especially should get used to being approached in this way. Is that clearer?
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No it's not clearer at all. It's just a toned down version of what you were saying before. Maybe this is why India has a long history of arranged marriages ... because men can't control their instinctive minds.
Marriage, young man, is about a lot more than sexuality. It's intellectual companionship, economic advantages of two people sharing accommodation, resources, and work. It's friendship, companionship, shared dharma, and more. In the grand scheme, sexuality is only a small part of it.
Young men everywhere need to grow up and realise that gender is just another aspect of how souls take on physical bodies, and there is no gender to the soul.
If one does not have the ability to distinguish when and where an advance is harassment, one should stick to arranged meets through dating websites or singles mixers.
Fireside_Hindu
Jai Lakshmi Maa
You're argument appears to be that sexual harassment is tradition so that makes it okay. That because some women enjoy being touched by strange men, that all women should just get used to it. Rather than take responsibility for your behavior you would rather risk humiliating another human being. Let me remind you that as a Hindu ahimsa is a guiding principal. You should err on the side of doing the least harm.
Know what else is a biological urge in humans? Killing others over resources and abandoning the weak to die. Shall we relax our attitude about that as well?
Sex is a biological compulsion. Rape has almost nothing to do with a desire to procreate and everything to do with expressing dominance and power over another human being through humiliation. Ancient armies all over the world would make a habit of raping the soldiers of their defeated enemy. I don't think making babies was their intent.
You talk about "normal sexual foreplay".If you want to have sex with a woman, there's a much less problematic way to do it. You could treat her like a human being, smile at her, ask her about what she likes and invite her to return that affection if she wishes. And if she doesn't, you could be a grown up about it and move on. But no, stamp your feet like a big man baby, blame your shattered ego on women, and then punish them for it.
Art is culture. Music is culture. Language is culture. Rape is a crime and their are no excuses. None. Zero. Zip.
@Kirran And @Vinayaka I think I have exhausted the winner commendation with the amount I have given you today!
@Shantanu Is being intentionally obtuse and clearly he is refusing to listen to the lived experiences of women. We are not like cats and dogs; we are not ruled by an estrus that forces us to go out and mate and men are not so base as to be driven wild by estrus pheromones. A male dog or cat will injure itself, as will a female, in an attempt to mate.
Humans are not ruled by our base instincts; if we were we would never have progressed much further than chimpanzees who will, I must mention, rape one another, kill infants and engage in cannibalism.
Men must be taught to respect women. For too many lifetimes women were viewed as chattel; in many countries they still are. Women in many Middle Eastern countries are legally recognised as children for their entire lives and require that a man give them permission to do anything. Some of the countries boast a low rape rate but the truth of the matter is far more sinister; the rate is not low, it is very high, but women have absolutely no rights. What will accusing her husband, father or brother of raping her get her? In a good case maybe her family will step in and remove her from the abuser but all too commonly the abuse simply escalates and many women die.
Please stop commenting. I pray that Ma keeps you and your disgusting thoughts and theories as isolated as possible and if that cannot happen then I pray that She intervenes in some way so that you are forces to understand.
Krishna would never condone rape, by the way. The dalliance of the gopis and Krishna was and is consensual. Every one of his wives prayed and worked to be his. Rukmini sent a messenger to him for her rescue, Satyabhama refused to be simply a matter of wife and joined him in his military exploits. Krishna and the women Ma surrounded him with exemplify mutual respect.
@Shantanu Is being intentionally obtuse and clearly he is refusing to listen to the lived experiences of women. We are not like cats and dogs; we are not ruled by an estrus that forces us to go out and mate and men are not so base as to be driven wild by estrus pheromones. A male dog or cat will injure itself, as will a female, in an attempt to mate.
Humans are not ruled by our base instincts; if we were we would never have progressed much further than chimpanzees who will, I must mention, rape one another, kill infants and engage in cannibalism.
Men must be taught to respect women. For too many lifetimes women were viewed as chattel; in many countries they still are. Women in many Middle Eastern countries are legally recognised as children for their entire lives and require that a man give them permission to do anything. Some of the countries boast a low rape rate but the truth of the matter is far more sinister; the rate is not low, it is very high, but women have absolutely no rights. What will accusing her husband, father or brother of raping her get her? In a good case maybe her family will step in and remove her from the abuser but all too commonly the abuse simply escalates and many women die.
Please stop commenting. I pray that Ma keeps you and your disgusting thoughts and theories as isolated as possible and if that cannot happen then I pray that She intervenes in some way so that you are forces to understand.
Krishna would never condone rape, by the way. The dalliance of the gopis and Krishna was and is consensual. Every one of his wives prayed and worked to be his. Rukmini sent a messenger to him for her rescue, Satyabhama refused to be simply a matter of wife and joined him in his military exploits. Krishna and the women Ma surrounded him with exemplify mutual respect.
I am hoping that discussing politics in Hinduism DIR is okay (there is nowhere else to discuss South Asian politics).
A New India: The Theme Of PM Modi's Victory Speech: 10 Facts
I am appending the speech Mr. Modi gave after his victory in the UP and other state elections. Not sure if everybody understands Hindi or if an English subtitled video. Overall a great and cogent speech (as usual) clearly, rationally and passionately outlining what he seeks to achieve, why and in what manner cutting through the stereotypical ideological divides. I believe that Mr. Modi is the most capable political leader India has elected in a long time, and now that Obama is gone, probably the best democratically elected leader in the world. He occupies a somewhat crucial position in this regard as - with the election of Trump, Brexit, impeachment of South Korean premiere and scandals in Brazil and France - the resiliency of democracies to pursue rational policies and elect effective leaders under stress is being doubted. Much will depend on how Mr. Modi performs over the next 7-8 years in his role.
The other issue I am concerned with is how to develop and find good leaders on a sustained basis rather than wait for them with fingers crossed. I am hoping that Mr. Modi would think about starting a leadership grooming and development program throughout the country specifically focused on political leadership so that young people who show promising leadership skills have the opportunity to develop those skills in a systematic manner regardless of party affiliations. Special scholarships so that promising youths from poor backgrounds and women can also have such opportunities may also help. I am thinking of things like:-
1) Participating in village panchayats and developmental and outreach programs
2) Interning with local, state and national governments
3) Learning multiple languages
4) Being part of an youth delegation in diplomatic missions
etc.