Breast implants: For or against

[Songbird]

The one I'm focusing on is that preferring big breasts is selfish.

Ah, okay.

I don't understand this point.

My point is that physical traits aren't equal to personality traits. Your comment implied they were. Wanting something out of a partner because it affects your well-being is different from wanting a breast size. Not that there's anything at all wrong with preferring a breast size. It's just not comparable to wanting a partner who who will treat you well.

It's obvious, but you're still zooming past the major point. I highlighted the key parts. You still want certain qualities in another person because of how they affect you. You want a good sense of humor because it makes you feel good. You want big breasts because they make you feel good.

Not all zooming past the point. I got it. But feeling good isn't how I'd word it. Being able to live with someone with small boobs versus with someone with a personality you don't like? Not a difficult choice.

I don't see it that way. I see him having made at least one false claim that he is apparently passionate about. There is an overall point, which is not to put so much emphasis on physical beauty that you create a harmful environment for women. That I think everyone can agree to. My problem is that that's not all he's saying. He's going much farther than that to the point where it goes over the line. My preference for big boobs is not creating a harmful environment for women, and it is not selfish.

Okay.

 

[Songbird]

He exaggerates some of his claims. In previous posts, he stated that the NFL and beer commercials are the worst at sexualizing women and used the APA report as a means of backing for it. I have read the report and nowhere does it say that. It states "male dominated industries" but that could be strip clubs, poker, NASCAR, rodeo riding, etc. where there is much more skin a boobs shown compared to the NFL. When I called him on it, he wouldn't address it at first and when he finally did, he had to recant.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

 

[Magic Man]

My point is that physical traits aren't equal to personality traits. Your comment implied they were. Wanting something out of a partner because it affects your well-being is different from wanting a breast size. Not that there's anything at all wrong with preferring a breast size. It's just not comparable to wanting a partner who who will treat you well.

In the way we're talking about it is. You want a partner who will treat you well why? Because it makes you feel better. In that way, it's just as selfish as wanting big breasts on a partner because they make you feel better. I think we'll all agree that we can live without big breasts easier than we can live without a partner who treats us well, but that's beside the point.

Not all zooming past the point. I got it. But feeling good isn't how I'd word it. Being able to live with someone with small boobs versus with someone with a personality you don't like? Not a difficult choice.

Right, but as above, that's just a priority order. Of course most of us would choose someone lacking a physical trait we really like but having almost a perfect personality for our tastes over someone having that physical trait but lacking a lot in our preferred personality. But that doesn't make one more selfish than the other.

 

[trdash]

If I was single, I would not find a certain breast size as attractive. I would prefer a women who is in good health (personal health is a public good) and if her personality was one a desired (linked values and activities of enjoyment like mountain biking) , then regardless I would find her breasts attractive, be them large, small, average, floppy, wiggly, perky, or firm. It would not matter and I think society would be better if more men were like this. So, I am not arguing against broad aspects of preference, such as normative health and preferences of values and activities of enjoyment, but I am arguing that men can change preferences when it’s about cutting women into pieces, such as when men say without shame ‘I like women with big hooters.” And men that cut women into sexual slices – such as breast size, are selfish and harm women psychologically.

Draka:

Here is a shorter reply than I had hoped because I do not want you to think I am side stepping your thoughts. I’m trying to rush this reply back before I take a three day trip.

First, the way we think about breasts is socially conditioned. The book “The history of the breast” By Dr. Marilyn Yalom is how breast size/shape has changed in different societies and era. In the Victorian era, for example, small breasts were a sign of grace and intelligence, larger was viewed as animalistic. Today, the image of female credibility is the Barbie doll, a thin, yet busty figure. So, yes your breasts are yours, but their image does rest in social norms.

Second, and most important to your reply, is that I am not opposed to bigger breasts in any way. I am opposed to cosmetic surgery breast implants (not reconstructive surgery breast implants). The quotation above is from a previous reply I made a few days ago (post #231). I think there are many men – more so than not – that push the bigger is better ideal of larger breasts. I think this is also pushed through the Barbie doll image. However, I find size related to my personal desires as irrelevant. I fell in love with my wife and her breast size is irrelevant. I could care less if they are huge, or tiny, jiggly or firm or really bouncy. It does not matter now and did not matter when I met her. So, my argument is not about bigger breasts are better – but I think there is a social discourse that does promote bigger is better related to both breasts and penises. I could care less, I just oppose breast implants whether related to shape or size for the reasons I outlined. So, no, you are not sexually objectifying anyone by having larger breasts.

I am arguing against the sexualizing of breasts and that is why I am arguing against breast implants. Dr. Blum states in her book that breast are a powerful signifier of femininity. I personally oppose this, but I think it’s a societal discourse.

One last point and I hesitated on whether I should share this. I might be dead wrong, but it sounds like you have had some troubling aspects related to being larger on top. In no way – implicitly or explicitly – did I mean to add to it or make you feel shame or discomfort because of it. If I did, know it was by mistake and please accept my apology. Without saying much, I have had similar problems on the male side – and I’ll leave it at that. My point is this: As a society we should as a people become less sexualizing and we should care less about size issue. Whether breasts are saggy, firm, and large or small, we all should be able to look past it and female worth should not be connected to breast size.

Sorry this is a rushed post and I hope I make sense. I am interested in your thoughts.

 

[trdash]

Which claims?



For one thing, a sense of humor or honesty, or whatever else, is part of a huge category of "traits", while implants is one specific subject. For another, this wide category of traits affects behaviors in a wide variety of ways. I want a range of things in my partner - safety, respect, love, a sense of humor, a work ethic - all of this affects my wellbeing, my future, my kids. Implants don't. How is that not obvious?

The actual issue of implants isn't what I'm arguing. Just that the OP makes some valid points, and I think everyone likes to jump on the majority bandwagon. Human nature. Pick on the guy who's easy to pick on, polarize the issue, make black and white statements, pick a side. Maybe I'm a little crabby today, and I have an anti-establishment tendency.

Heck, if I wanted to, I'd get implants. But I think breasts are over-sexualized, too. In our culture men are success objects and women are sex objects. Discussion to solve or equalize or analyze it is good.

Edit: I do see the point of fixating on one physical attribute as opposed to a myriad other things. I'm just....hm, ranting, I suppose.

Hey, your ranting makes good sense to me!

 

[Oneatatime]

If a person either male or female wants breasts implants and aren't having them done because they are being coerced into doing so then I don't see what the problem is. I also don't see what right we have to overide an individuals autonomy and deny them the chance to have breast implants if its going to make them happy.

 

[Draka]

Draka:

Here is a shorter reply than I had hoped because I do not want you to think I am side stepping your thoughts. I’m trying to rush this reply back before I take a three day trip.

First, the way we think about breasts is socially conditioned. The book “The history of the breast” By Dr. Marilyn Yalom is how breast size/shape has changed in different societies and era. In the Victorian era, for example, small breasts were a sign of grace and intelligence, larger was viewed as animalistic. Today, the image of female credibility is the Barbie doll, a thin, yet busty figure. So, yes your breasts are yours, but their image does rest in social norms.

Why should society have anything to say about my, or any other woman's, breasts? See, here's the issue: you are actually being part of the problem you are talking about. By insisting that breasts be a social issue you are making it one when it shouldn't be.

A woman, like a man, thinks different things about herself when she looks in the mirror:
"I don't like the bump on my nose"
"My left ear sticks out further than my right"
"My hair color makes me look so pale/washed out"
"I really have no chin"
"My butt is flat/big"

So why should "My breasts are too small/too big" be any different or supposedly have a different influence?

Second, and most important to your reply, is that I am not opposed to bigger breasts in any way. I am opposed to cosmetic surgery breast implants (not reconstructive surgery breast implants). The quotation above is from a previous reply I made a few days ago (post #231). I think there are many men – more so than not – that push the bigger is better ideal of larger breasts. I think this is also pushed through the Barbie doll image. However, I find size related to my personal desires as irrelevant. I fell in love with my wife and her breast size is irrelevant. I could care less if they are huge, or tiny, jiggly or firm or really bouncy. It does not matter now and did not matter when I met her. So, my argument is not about bigger breasts are better – but I think there is a social discourse that does promote bigger is better related to both breasts and penises. I could care less, I just oppose breast implants whether related to shape or size for the reasons I outlined. So, no, you are not sexually objectifying anyone by having larger breasts.

You really can't have it both ways. Are big boobs a problem or not? If my natural breasts aren't an issue then why should any other woman's artificially enhanced breasts be an issue? If a woman who use to be an A cup disliked her figure and wanted to have DDs because that size looked better on her body/frame in her opinion, then why should her breasts be any different than mine when it comes to affect upon anyone else? If me having DDs naturally doesn't have any impact on society's perception of breasts or any sexual objectification, then why should any other woman's regardless of whether they are natural or not?

I am arguing against the sexualizing of breasts and that is why I am arguing against breast implants. Dr. Blum states in her book that breast are a powerful signifier of femininity. I personally oppose this, but I think it’s a societal discourse.

By arguing that breast implants are a sexual issue you are the one making it so in your mind. Does not mean it is really so in reality.

One last point and I hesitated on whether I should share this. I might be dead wrong, but it sounds like you have had some troubling aspects related to being larger on top. In no way – implicitly or explicitly – did I mean to add to it or make you feel shame or discomfort because of it. If I did, know it was by mistake and please accept my apology. Without saying much, I have had similar problems on the male side – and I’ll leave it at that.

See, there's the thing. If you really do care and feel bad about the critiques affecting me then why not feel bad the other way? That is to say, why should I gain any sympathy when you have none for the girl who really and truly does not feel comfortable in her own body and would like to change it? The "troubling aspects" I've had are comfort and appearance related. I don't appreciate that the really nice clothing styles I like to wear and I think look nice on me don't ever fit quite right because of my chest. I don't like that on a hot day I can sweat as much under my breasts as you probably do under your pits. I don't like that bras are difficult to fit because my breasts are large enough that the difference between their sizes is actually noticable both in fit and visually. I don't like that my breasts are heavy enough that the weight is clearly felt on my shoulders and in my back just to hold them up. If I had the means and ability I'd gladly have them reduced. Did you hear anything in there about how I look "sexually pleasing"? Now why do you think that a smaller woman who wants larger ones has solely sexually based reasoning for wanting her breasts to be different?

My point is this: As a society we should as a people become less sexualizing and we should care less about size issue. Whether breasts are saggy, firm, and large or small, we all should be able to look past it and female worth should not be connected to breast size.

Sorry this is a rushed post and I hope I make sense. I am interested in your thoughts.

If, as a society, we should become less "sexualizing" and should care less about size and shape, then perhaps you can lead the charge by not making breast size a sexual issue and stop caring what sizes women want their breast sizes to be? Because...female worth is NOT connected to breast size...you're the one connecting those dots.

 

[ninerbuff]

Sorry this is a rushed post and I hope I make sense. I am interested in your thoughts.

Lol, no you're not. You don't take anyone's replies under consideration, you only banter about what you feel.

 

[Revoltingest]

.....you only banter about what you feel.

Don't we all?

 

[ninerbuff]

Don't we all?

Sure, but being able to discuss them by sincerely acknowledging an opposing view is what I'm talking here. He doesn't give a rat's *** about how others feel, just what he think they should feel.

 

[Nerthus]

Is it OK when it actuall harms others beyond the person? Think more related to the social consequences rather than the individual aspects of the person getting surgery.

And, how does that happen?!

If fake boobs offend you, good! You should not be looking at everyone pair of breasts you see in the street.

 

[ninerbuff]

And, how does that happen?!

If fake boobs offend you, good! You should not be looking at everyone pair of breasts you see in the street.

Lol, I think trdash is the one it hurts because he doesn't get to oogle or touch them!!!

 

[Sunstone]

Which claims?



For one thing, a sense of humor or honesty, or whatever else, is part of a huge category of "traits", while implants is one specific subject. For another, this wide category of traits affects behaviors in a wide variety of ways. I want a range of things in my partner - safety, respect, love, a sense of humor, a work ethic - all of this affects my wellbeing, my future, my kids. Implants don't. How is that not obvious?

The actual issue of implants isn't what I'm arguing. Just that the OP makes some valid points, and I think everyone likes to jump on the majority bandwagon. Human nature. Pick on the guy who's easy to pick on, polarize the issue, make black and white statements, pick a side. Maybe I'm a little crabby today, and I have an anti-establishment tendency.

Heck, if I wanted to, I'd get implants. But I think breasts are over-sexualized, too. In our culture men are success objects and women are sex objects. Discussion to solve or equalize or analyze it is good.

Edit: I do see the point of fixating on one physical attribute as opposed to a myriad other things. I'm just....hm, ranting, I suppose.

Excellent post. :clap

 

[Dezzie]

Our perceptions and thinking is higher though. While love has more to do with companionship, romance, and a stronger relationship, physical and health attributes don't always come with the person you choose. If someone has a high suseptibility to cancer or some illness, the "general" option for procreation is this not the best choice. However, we as humans look beyond the faults our "soulmates" have. We fall for the person and not the physical attributes. I'm just saying it's not unnatural to be attracted to someone for looks because of what our primitive brain may consider "attractive".

I totally see where you are coming from and I do completely agree. Thank you for your reply. I understand that it is not "unnatural" to be attracted to someone... I just dislike the "false image" that women feel the need to place on themselves. Too many women feel the need to have fake boobs for reasons that are unclear to me. :areyoucra It's just always been one of those things that is difficult for me to grasp.

 

[Dezzie]

In the human animal, looks matter, whether you like it or not.

I must be an alien then.

 

[*Anne*]

I checked out at some point with this thread, and I'm too lazy to read all the pages, but this jumped out at me:

But I think breasts are over-sexualized, too. In our culture men are success objects and women are sex objects.

*nods* I've said this many times. No matter how much a woman accomplishes, it seems it's just too easy to bring it all back to her looks. Who hasn't heard nasty comments about female politicians that have nothing to do with their politics?

Speaking of...

Meghan McCain tells Glenn Beck to shut up about her body.

He doesn't like her political position on things, so what does he attack? Her body. Her looks. Hit her where it really hurts.

I know it's childish, but Beck deserves a swift kick in the nuts.

 

[Skwim]

The fact is that on whole men have always regarded women more sexually than women have regard men. It's how we're mentally constructed, like being born with different sex organs. That women may not like the fact that in our culture today breasts are alluring to men is unfortunate, but there's little a guy can do about it. None of us choose what we're attracted to. The only variable in the equation is how women choose to address this attraction. Most, at some time or another, exploit it to some degree, wearing clothing that either accents their breasts or at least presents them attractively. A few others opt to ignore there sexual significance altogether. Either way it's a harmless choice that's all part of the mating game.

 

[ninerbuff]

The reality is the female breast attracts males because we are hardwired that way. It's not a feeling you can just "turn off" and try to force out of your system. Men don't force women to get implants. Women do it for various reasons, each to what they feel it will personally do for them. Some do it to attract men, some do it to trump the competition. Some do it (married women) because they want their breasts firm again.
Let's face it, we all compete. We compete for land, food, education, money and mates. It's our survival instinct that puts this into place, and although there's more than enough males and females in the world to hook up, our actual physical bodies haven't really changed their functions in thousands of years.
You know what hurts society more than breast augmentation............greed. Almost every greedy action will DIRECTLY affect society in some way. Goldman Sach's screwed us over and created an economic meltdown. For what? So some execs could make a few more million more than they already had?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

In our culture men are success objects and women are sex objects. Discussion to solve or equalize or analyze it is good.

This is why I've simply made myself both a sex object and a success object. Problem solved.

 

[Dezzie]

The reality is the female breast attracts males because we are hardwired that way. It's not a feeling you can just "turn off" and try to force out of your system.

What about gay men that aren't attracted to breasts? Are they just "hardwired" that way?