Brussels Under Attack

[SpeaksForTheTrees]

Are you people really that dumb? Islam is a violent ideology (not a religion) that openly encourages violence against non-Muslims. What will it take for you to wake up? Do you need to see your own family members turned into pieces? Would that work for you?

In a very very violent world Islam a religion of peace in war . Quran appeared during times of crusades , so was very violent time , without Quran maybe Islam end up like the Aztec . They survived 2000 years and still don't make nuclear bomb .
Is a terrible world , Benjamin Franklin slaughter 80 million indians , if only they had Mohammed .
Is terrible world yesterday proves this .

 

[Crypto2015]

In a very very violent world Islam a religion of peace in war . Quran appeared during times of crusades , so was very violent time , without Quran maybe Islam end up like the Aztec . They survived 2000 years and still don't make nuclear bomb .
Is a terrible world , Benjamin Franklin slaughter 80 million indians , if only they had Mohammed .
Is terrible world yesterday proves this .

Could you actually be more ignorant? The Qur'an did NOT appear during the times of the crusades. The Qur'an is supposed to have been revealed between 609 and 632 AD. The crusades took place between 1096 and 1487 AD.

 

[Kirran]

The posts in this thread has convinced me that Humanism is the correct way forward. All the recent posts have basically been, "My god is better than your god" or "My god is more peaceful that your god".

Agreed! Fortunately, I see humanism as entirely compatible with religion. Indeed, to be enjoined by it.

Are you people really that dumb? Islam is a violent ideology (not a religion) that openly encourages violence against non-Muslims. What will it take for you to wake up? Do you need to see your own family members turned into pieces? Would that work for you?

I have known quite a lot of Muslims in my time - my neighbours back in Wales, including their sons around my age who I went to school with, several students at university (mostly Malaysians), people at work etc - not one of them thus far has been anything but condemnatory towards ISIS and terrorism, not one of them has attempted to make me convert to Islam, and not one has attempted to cut my family members into pieces.

The fact there are those out there supporting the acts of violence is a sad one, but it is utterly unreasonable to simply ignore all the Muslims who don't do these things so you can say that all Muslims must be violent.

 

[Crypto2015]

Agreed! Fortunately, I see humanism as entirely compatible with religion. Indeed, to be enjoined by it.



I have known quite a lot of Muslims in my time - my neighbours back in Wales, including their sons around my age who I went to school with, several students at university (mostly Malaysians), people at work etc - not one of them thus far has been anything but condemnatory towards ISIS and terrorism, not one of them has attempted to make me convert to Islam, and not one has attempted to cut my family members into pieces.

The fact there are those out there supporting the acts of violence is a sad one, but it is utterly unreasonable to simply ignore all the Muslims who don't do these things so you can say that all Muslims must be violent.

Ask your Muslim neighbours if they condemn marrying a nine-year old girl? Ask them if they condemn killing apostates? Ask them if they condemn killing those who insult Muhammad? If they reply "yes" to all of these question, they are very out-of-the-ordinary. This is what the polls say:

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml

 

[Kirran]

Ask your Muslim neighbours if they condemn marrying a nine-year old girl? Ask them if they condemn killing apostates? Ask them if they condemn killing those who insult Muhammad? If they reply "yes" to all of these question, they are very out-of-the-ordinary. This is what the polls say:

ICM Poll: 20% of British Muslims sympathize with 7/7 bombers
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1510866/Poll-reveals-40pc-of-Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

NOP Research: 1 in 4 British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/14/opinion/main1893879.shtml&date=2011-04-06
http://www.webcitation.org/5xkMGAEvY

Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf

People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war

YNet: One third of Palestinians (32%) supported the slaughter of a Jewish family, including the children:
http://pajamasmedia.com/tatler/2011/04/06/32-of-palestinians-support-infanticide/
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4053251,00.html

World Public Opinion: 61% of Egyptians approve of attacks on Americans
32% of Indonesians approve of attacks on Americans
41% of Pakistanis approve of attacks on Americans
38% of Moroccans approve of attacks on Americans
83% of Palestinians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (only 14% oppose)
62% of Jordanians approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (21% oppose)
42% of Turks approve of some or most groups that attack Americans (45% oppose)
A minority of Muslims disagreed entirely with terror attacks on Americans:
(Egypt 34%; Indonesia 45%; Pakistan 33%)
About half of those opposed to attacking Americans were sympathetic with al-Qaeda’s attitude toward the U.S.
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/feb09/STARTII_Feb09_rpt.pdf

Pew Research (2010): 55% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hezbollah
30% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hezbollah
45% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hezbollah (26% negative)
43% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hezbollah (30% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 60% of Jordanians have a positive view of Hamas (34% negative).
49% of Egyptians have a positive view of Hamas (48% negative)
49% of Nigerian Muslims have a positive view of Hamas (25% negative)
39% of Indonesians have a positive view of Hamas (33% negative)
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

Pew Research (2010): 15% of Indonesians believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
34% of Nigerian Muslims believe suicide bombings are often or sometimes justified.
http://pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

16% of young Muslims in Belgium state terrorism is "acceptable".
http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1275/Islam/article/detail/1619036/2013/04/22/Zestien-procent-moslimjongens-vindt-terrorisme-aanvaardbaar.dhtml

They do condemn these things - we've discussed these issues.

There are big problems, definitely - but even the stats you showed, troubling as they are, demonstrate that it isn't universal within Islam. So it's a problem within Islam, not with Islam.

 

[Crypto2015]

They do condemn these things - we've discussed these issues.

There are big problems, definitely - but even the stats you showed, troubling as they are, demonstrate that it isn't universal within Islam. So it's a problem within Islam, not with Islam.

So, are you proposing that we must keep dying in the hope that some day Islam will become a peaceful religion? Sorry, but I am not that suicidal.

 

[Altfish]

The attackers that I know about weren't even Christians. Furthermore, are you really going to compare two or three lunatics with the kind of things that we are living right now? Perhaps people like you deserve to be blown up after all. It is just natural selection in action.

You are not reading the correct articles then. I attach a link to the wiki page...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
...and give you one quote from the page...
"Anti-abortion extremism is recognized as a form of Christian Terrorism"

If you are not happy with Wiki, just google 'anti abortion violence' and it will give you plenty of examples

And no, I'm not making any comparisons just refuting you assertion "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"

 

[Kirran]

So, are you proposing that we must keep dying in the hope that some day Islam will become a peaceful religion? Sorry, but I am not that suicidal.

I didn't propose any action or lack thereof. That wasn't what I was raising.

What I think would help would be for us to encourage those Muslim groups which are helping Muslims to really face up to these problems and confront them, like Muslims for Progressive Values, the Quillaum Foundation etc. It is hard to come to face up to violence in your own tradition, and look into its origins. This is evidenced by your lack of willingness to scrutinise Christian violence, historical and current, against pagans etc. As Islam currently has much more issues than Christianity, it is even harder for them to face up to them.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

You are not reading the correct articles then. I attach a link to the wiki page...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
...and give you one quote from the page...
"Anti-abortion extremism is recognized as a form of Christian Terrorism"

If you are not happy with Wiki, just google 'anti abortion violence' and it will give you plenty of examples
And no, I'm not making any comparisons just refuting you assertion "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"

Anti abortion violence is largely an American phenomenon. I do not have any statistics to show that it is exclusively Christian. or that it is predominately from one sector of Christians.
Those that are anti abortion are certainly predominately " Religious" but not necessarily Christian, though a large majority do not support violence of any kind.

 

[Crypto2015]

You are not reading the correct articles then. I attach a link to the wiki page...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
...and give you one quote from the page...
"Anti-abortion extremism is recognized as a form of Christian Terrorism"

If you are not happy with Wiki, just google 'anti abortion violence' and it will give you plenty of examples

And no, I'm not making any comparisons just refuting you assertion "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"

In your own link (and the links mentioned therein) you will find that of all the abortion-clinic-related murders in the US, only three were committed by self-identified Christians (Michael F. Griffin, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill']Paul Jennings Hill, [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Charles_Kopp']James Kopp)[/URL][/URL]. That makes a total of four fatal victims of "Christian" terrorism in the whole history of the US. Compare this with the number of fatal victims of Islamic Terrorism in the whole history of the US: 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing (63 fatal victims), 1983 Beirut barracks bombing (307 fatal victims), 1984 United States embassy annex bombing (24 dead), Khobar Towers bombing (20 dead), [URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings']1998 United States embassy bombings (224 dead),[/URL] Attack on USS Cole (17 dead), September 11, 2001 (2996 dead), John Allen Muhammad's sniper attacks (16 dead), 2002 Los Angeles International Airport shooting (2 dead), 2009 Little Rock recruiting office shooting (1 dead), Fort Hood shooting (13 dead), 2012 Benghazi attack (4 dead), Boston Marathon bombings (3 dead), 2013 attack on U.S. consulate in Herat (2 dead), 2015 San Bernardino attack (14 dead).

So, we are talking about 4 fatal victims ("Christian" terrorism) vs. 3704 fatal victims (Islamic Jihad). I wrote "Christian" between apostrophes because as Christians we are not supposed to kill anyone. In Islam it is OK to kill the unbelievers.

 

[Crypto2015]

I didn't propose any action or lack thereof. That wasn't what I was raising.

What I think would help would be for us to encourage those Muslim groups which are helping Muslims to really face up to these problems and confront them, like Muslims for Progressive Values, the Quillaum Foundation etc. It is hard to come to face up to violence in your own tradition, and look into its origins. This is evidenced by your lack of willingness to scrutinise Christian violence, historical and current, against pagans etc. As Islam currently has much more issues than Christianity, it is even harder for them to face up to them.

That is a good strategy. I personally believe that it won't succeed, though. "Moderate" Muslims know that Islamic terrorists are actually devout Muslims. In a debate, an Islamic terrorist would eat a "moderate" Muslim alive, since "moderate" Muslims cannot support their ideas with the Qur'an, whereas Islamic terrorists can.

 

[Kirran]

That is a good strategy. I personally believe that it won't succeed, though. "Moderate" Muslims know that Islamic terrorists are actually devout Muslims. In a debate, an Islamic terrorist would eat a "moderate" Muslim alive, since "moderate" Muslims cannot support their ideas with the Qur'an, whereas Islamic terrorists can.

There may be the odd 'moderate' Muslim who'd agree with that, but it is certainly not universal. As texts by Reza Aslan, Maajid Nawaz, Scott Kugle, Dayee Abdullah etc will testify. Who 'wins' the debates is largely down to whose view you see as having been correct to begin with.

The fact is there are Muslims who believe their faith is peaceful, accepting, etc - so let's encourage those understandings.

 

[Altfish]

So, we are talking about 4 fatal victims ("Christian" terrorism) vs. 3704 fatal victims (Islamic Jihad). I wrote "Christian" between apostrophes because as Christians we are not supposed to kill anyone. In Islam it is OK to kill the unbelievers.

Which is sufficient to refute you assertion "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"

I'm not trying to play a numbers game, I was just correcting your statement.

 

[Crypto2015]

Which is sufficient to refute you assertion "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"

I'm not trying to play a numbers game, I was just correcting your statement.

I have never seen them. I have just read about them. I have seen the aftermath of Islamic terrorist attacks. Seen them with my own eyes. You are not playing a numbers game because numbers are embarasing to you. They prove you wrong.

 

[Crypto2015]

There may be the odd 'moderate' Muslim who'd agree with that, but it is certainly not universal. As texts by Reza Aslan, Maajid Nawaz, Scott Kugle, Dayee Abdullah etc will testify. Who 'wins' the debates is largely down to whose view you see as having been correct to begin with.

The fact is there are Muslims who believe their faith is peaceful, accepting, etc - so let's encourage those understandings.

OK, encourage them, but don't expect too much from their efforts because they are not going to succeed. There have been many Islamic reformation movements. The latest one is called ISIS.

 

[Altfish]

I have never seen them. I have just read about them. I have seen the aftermath of Islamic terrorist attacks. Seen them with my own eyes. You are not playing a numbers game because numbers are embarasing to you. They prove you wrong.

Good grief you are a troll.
You said "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"
I said I was not comparing the scale of the atrocities. I then gave you examples of Christian Terrorism.

You still say that I am wrong!!!!

Beam me up, Scotty. This is pointless.

 

[Frank Merton]

There is a lot of fear and hate of Islam, and moderates try and try to say that not all Muslims do it. With every atrocity the moderates lose ground.

 

[Demonslayer]

OK, encourage them, but don't expect too much from their efforts because they are not going to succeed. There have been many Islamic reformation movements

Good thing we didn't throw in the towel on Christianity based on the Christians who perpetrated the Inquisition or the Crusades!

There have been many Christian reformation movements too.

You're guilty of religious myopia. You see a window of the last 40 years or so, with American Christians being relatively peaceful compared to Middle Eastern Muslims, and you think that means there is something inherently rotten in Islam and wonderful in Christianity. Wrong. Throughout history Christians have killed far, far more than Muslims in religious-based attacks. See the attached if you care to educate yourself. Or just leave your blinders on, I don't really care.

And if you're going to say "oh this is ancient history" remember that just for most of American history, the wonderful Christian population kept, beat, raped and killed human slaves, quoting the Bible as justification.

https://www.quora.com/Which-religio...of-deaths-of-infidels-over-its-entire-history

 

[Crypto2015]

Good grief you are a troll.
You said "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians"
I said I was not comparing the scale of the atrocities. I then gave you examples of Christian Terrorism.

You still say that I am wrong!!!!

Beam me up, Scotty. This is pointless.

So, numbers mean nothing, right? Do you even understand how ridiculous your position is? 4 fatal victims of "Christian" terrorism vs. more than 3700 fatal victims of Islamic terrorism. Yet, both are somehow equally dangerous and equally supported by Christian and Muslim sacred scriptures, respectively. Even a five-year-old boy would easily conclude that your line of thinking is irrational to an extreme.

 

[Altfish]

So, numbers mean nothing, right? Do you even understand how ridiculous your position is? 4 fatal victims of "Christian" terrorism vs. more than 3700 fatal victims of Islamic terrorism. Yet, both are somehow equally dangerous and equally supported by Christian and Muslim sacred scriptures, respectively. Even a five-year-old boy would easily conclude that your line of thinking is irrational to an extreme.

What part of your phrase "I have never seen any terrorist attack perpetrated by Christians" do you not understand? Where in your phrase does it mention the scale of the atrocity, since when does your word "any" exclude events when only one or two are killed?

Read the previous posts again, it is only you who mentions the scale of the atrocities. As I have previously said, I am NOT comparing scales of the atrocities just correcting a factual assertion that you made. I have never said they were equal.

You are now resorting to personal insults which is a sure sign that your argument is lost.