Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity

[McBell]

As much as people are willing to pursue the proposal.

Regards Tony

That does not really answer the question now does it?
No matter.

Mostly because if the plan has not presented any useful results in 28 years, I would say you need a new plan.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, attitudes will have to change. And Baha'is tell us what attitudes people will need to change... but will everybody's attitude change for the good? There always seems like some people will hold a grudge and wait for the chance to get even.

So, can you discuss how Baha'is believe that there will be a qualitative change and that Baha'is say that there will be a "new race of men". Because without a spiritual change of attitude, I'm afraid the same negative attitudes will continue to crop up.

You would know that answer, but not what anyone of us want to hear.

“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Baha'u'llah

How long is this piece of string? Well Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi gave us more information. Abdul'baha foretold of the 2nd world war and the establishment of the United Nations after the first world war. Shoghi Effendi has given us signs of the 3rd world conflict, and does say America faces great Perils. We are told no Nation will be exempt from facing what will cause the limbs of mankind to quake, but what is that?

Regards Tony

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yes that is the key, (PS that was stated in the opening OP in a lot fewer words at the bottom of the OP). Every Nation would be involved in the setting and policing of the boarders.

Regards Tony

So step 1 of your plan for "peace" is a situation like the one behind the Korean War, only repeated all over the world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I mean faith in God, for God to impart His Will to humanity.

Regards Tony

I'll take that as a "yes."

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Which you say won't happen until wars and other catastrophes. So, right now... not much.

But I've heard Baha'is say that what they are doing is building their administrative order and communities. That way, when the old world order collapses, they already have the foundation of the new world order established. Can you talk a little about that? And is that correct?

I am not seeing that the Bahai model will be the process adopted for the Lesser Peace, it will remain the process for the Baha'i Administrative order. After the Lesser Peace is established and the process of trying to eliminate religion ceases, so maybe a couple of centuries, the Baha'i model will be adopted in tge building of our spiritual capacity. At sometime in the future the National and Local spiritual assemblies are to become houses of justice, not houses of rulers.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We will have to wait and see how the structure will be built. It appears that as a citizen the election process will remain as us electing our governments and then they appoint representatives. (Quote below of a suggested structure)

After the first world war it was the League of Nations, after the 2nd world war the United Nations, after the 3rd world war? A World Federation, the structure yet to be decided.

This was offered after the first world war.

"....For example, the question of universal peace, about which Baha’u’llah says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Baha’u’llah has described will fulfill this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation — that is to say parliaments — should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this is!" – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 306-307.

Abdul'baha offered that would be established in the 20th century, so it is possible the United Nations is that body, but needs the given power of enforcement and vetoed votes are not allowable.

Regards Tony

And who's going to vote for them? Again, unless there's your "new race of men" this old race of men is going to want a strong, forceful leader to represent them.

I added a quote where Abdul'baha talks about the process.

It appears the Unites Nations is close to the process of the structure anticipated, but without the given power of enforcement.

Stands to reason, as Abdul'baha said that in the 20th century it would be firmly established, we have the body, we have not given it the power to enforce international law. If we did, the boarders would not have been crossed by the aggressors.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'll take that as a "yes."

I fully expected you to continue with such a narrow and limited view, I hope you can open your frames of references.

I do offer Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, attitudes will have to change. And Baha'is tell us what attitudes people will need to change... but will everybody's attitude change for the good? There always seems like some people will hold a grudge and wait for the chance to get even.

So, can you discuss how Baha'is believe that there will be a qualitative change and that Baha'is say that there will be a "new race of men". Because without a spiritual change of attitude, I'm afraid the same negative attitudes will continue to crop up.

And who's going to vote for them? Again, unless there's your "new race of men" this old race of men is going to want a strong, forceful leader to represent them.

So, what good are their decisions?

Ah, but give them the power to enforce them, then we've got something... and it's probably going to be a war.

But which country is so innocent? Give land back to the Palestinians? Stop Russia from invading Ukraine? Well, what about the U.S.? Will the World Tribunal demand giving the Native People their land back? Reparations for what was done to the Blacks?

Lots of stuff has got to be fixed. What's the just thing to do? What would God do? Oh yeah, give the power to the meek, the down trodden. And punish those that abused their power.

And who's going to do that? The World Tribunal that was given their power by the ones in power? Like they're not going to put in their own people in? But rather peace loving people?

But like I said, I'm sure God has thought this through and knows what he is doing. Just look at how well all his other plans went.

With all this CG, the United Nations has been operating since the 2nd world war and giving resolutions, many which have not been enforced. These are given by Majoriry vote and should be enforced.

Here they are

Resolutions | Security Council

United Nations resolutions are formal expressions of the opinion or will of United Nations organs. They generally consist of two clearly defined sections: a preamble and an operative part. The preamble generally presents the considerations on the basis of which action is taken, an opinion...

main.un.org

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So step 1 of your plan for "peace" is a situation like the one behind the Korean War, only repeated all over the world.

No, that is not the proposed model.

Regards Tony

 

[Balthazzar]

We will have to wait and see how the structure will be built. It appears that as a citizen the election process will remain as us electing our governments and then they appoint representatives. (Quote below of a suggested structure)

After the first world war it was the League of Nations, after the 2nd world war the United Nations, after the 3rd world war? A World Federation, the structure yet to be decided.

This was offered after the first world war.

"....For example, the question of universal peace, about which Baha’u’llah says that the Supreme Tribunal must be established: although the League of Nations has been brought into existence, yet it is incapable of establishing universal peace. But the Supreme Tribunal which Baha’u’llah has described will fulfill this sacred task with the utmost might and power. And His plan is this: that the national assemblies of each country and nation — that is to say parliaments — should elect two or three persons who are the choicest men of that nation, and are well informed concerning international laws and the relations between governments and aware of the essential needs of the world of humanity in this day. The number of these representatives should be in proportion to the number of inhabitants of that country. The election of these souls who are chosen by the national assembly, that is, the parliament, must be confirmed by the upper house, the congress and the cabinet and also by the president or monarch so these persons may be the elected ones of all the nation and the government. From among these people the members of the Supreme Tribunal will be elected, and all mankind will thus have a share therein, for every one of these delegates is fully representative of his nation. When the Supreme Tribunal gives a ruling on any international question, either unanimously or by majority rule, there will no longer be any pretext for the plaintiff or ground of objection for the defendant. In case any of the governments or nations, in the execution of the irrefutable decision of the Supreme Tribunal, be negligent or dilatory, the rest of the nations will rise up against it, because all the governments and nations of the world are the supporters of this Supreme Tribunal. Consider what a firm foundation this is!" – Selections from the Writings of Abdu’l-Baha, pp. 306-307.

Abdul'baha offered that would be established in the 20th century, so it is possible the United Nations is that body, but needs the given power of enforcement and vetoed votes are not allowable.

Regards Tony

I need to chew on this a while. My concern is with the people and our rights as people to pursue happiness as individuals and as families. The need for communication and adequate articulation is evident. Thanks for offering a peek at the table. I'll be mulling it over for a while.

 

[ppp]

No, that is not the proposed model.

Regards Tony

Can you specify how the models differ in structure. Not in result. In structure.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, that is not the proposed model.

Regards Tony

It may not be the intent, but I'm talking about the likely effect.

What features of your plan would prevent conflicts like the Korean War?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That does not really answer the question now does it?
No matter.

Mostly because if the plan has not presented any useful results in 28 years, I would say you need a new plan.

Maybe people need to embrace the plan even if it has taken 28 years to see the wisdom, after over 100 years it was originally offered.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Sorry, disagree, it would be a fundamental requirement for peace, that no nation has stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

One such United Nations article.

Disarmament | United Nations

Since the birth of the United Nations, the goals of multilateral disarmament and arms limitation have been central to the Organization’s efforts to maintain international peace and security.

www.un.org

Regards Tony

How about weapons of killing one person at a time? Like spears, swords, bows and arrows? Oh, rocks, fists....

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe in the goodness of humanity. That it will rise above its aggression and corruption and at last fulfil the dream of past ages which we all hope and wish for. If people could only know the glorious future humanity is destined to embrace their hearts would throb with joy. The pain the world is going through is the death pangs of the old ways and the birth pangs of a beautiful peace on the horizon.

What about the "badness" of some people? The peace plan laid out in the Book of Revelation has Jesus come back on a white horse and slay all the evil kings and rulers. What is the Baha'i plan for greedy, evil, just plain old bad people? Because I know Baha'u'llah made laws allowing for the killing or murderers and arsons. If things were going to be all lovey dovey then there would be no need for those laws.

 

[ppp]

How about weapons of killing one person at a time? Like spears, swords, bows and arrows? Oh, rocks, fists....

Heck. Even conventional bombs capable of leveling a few blocks are not considered WMDs

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe people need to embrace the plan even if it has taken 28 years to see the wisdom, after over 100 years it was originally offered.

Regards Tony

But you already told us that the plan will not be adopted until we go through so much pain and suffering and tribulations that the Baha'i Faith and its plan are our last resort.

Right now, it's not our last resort. We've got better things to do, then implement some peace plan from some tiny religious group.

No, but really? If the first step is to get the nations to disarm, what are the practical steps to get that done? Maybe like the just say "no" to drugs thing?

We can start a campaign... "Just say no to war" "No more nukes" And we can carry Peace signs and hand out flowers. That should get the world leaders to listen. Or to get throw in jail and tear gassed.

Oh, and would Baha'is participate in those Peace Marches?

 

[CG Didymus]

Heck. Even conventional bombs capable of leveling a few blocks are not considered WMDs

Yes, they are depending on people being loving and all spiritual. And the leaders in all the nations to want to do this.

It wouldn't matter if the nations disarm if there are radicals within several nations that have guns and bombs. What the Baha'is going to do about them? Pray that they see the error of their ways and repent?

 

[ppp]

Oh, and would Baha'is participate in those Peace Marches

Have the Baha'i as an organization, ever in their history taken part in any social movement on the behalf of some non-bahai group? Active and real action. Not just hopes and prayers.

 

[ppp]

Yes, they are depending on people being loving and all spiritual. And the leaders in all the nations to want to do this.

It wouldn't matter if the nations disarm if there are radicals within several nations that have guns and bombs. What the Baha'is going to do about them? Pray that they see the error of their ways and repent?

As Plato would say, if he spoke English, The empty vessel makes the loudest sound.