Building Bridges to the Unity of Humanity

[TransmutingSoul]

An extract from the Peace Message given in 1985.

".. Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity’s stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will, is the choice before all who inhabit the earth. At this critical juncture when the intractable problems confronting nations have been fused into one common concern for the whole world, failure to stem the tide of conflict and disorder would be unconscionably irresponsible..."

Humanity continues being unconscionably irresponsible.

Regards Tony

 

[Ponder This]

Sorry, disagree, it would be a fundamental requirement for peace, that no nation has stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction.

One such United Nations article.

Disarmament | United Nations

Since the birth of the United Nations, the goals of multilateral disarmament and arms limitation have been central to the Organization’s efforts to maintain international peace and security.

www.un.org

Regards Tony

Weapons of mass destruction exist and are not going to cease to exist. And, according to you, as long as weapons of mass destruction exist, your plan for peace fundamentally fails... or, even worse, given the choice between allowing weapons of mass destruction to exist and war, you would choose war rather than peace. I submit that perhaps the elimination of weapon stockpiles cannot be a fundamental prerequisite for peace.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Weapons of mass destruction exist and are not going to cease to exist. And, according to you, as long as weapons of mass destruction exist, your plan for peace fundamentally fails... or, even worse, given the choice between allowing weapons of mass destruction to exist and war, you would choose war rather than peace. I submit that perhaps the elimination of weapon stockpiles cannot be a fundamental prerequisite for peace.

That is imputing your thoughts on to me, the plan does not fail, it is humanity and peace that fails if disarmament does not happen.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Weapons of mass destruction exist and are not going to cease to exist. And, according to you, as long as weapons of mass destruction exist, your plan for peace fundamentally fails... or, even worse, given the choice between allowing weapons of mass destruction to exist and war, you would choose war rather than peace. I submit that perhaps the elimination of weapon stockpiles cannot be a fundamental prerequisite for peace.

Yeah, if two people have a major disagreement and are ready to fight about it, what is the first step in a Baha'i type of plan? Get them to disarm... take away their guns. Hmmm? They still have knives. Take them away two. It gets down to their fists. Tie their hands behind their backs. They can still kick. Tie their feet together. They can still butt their heads together, Strap them down, so they can't move.

Now that they can't physically hurt each other, in the Baha'i plan, we have the Supreme Tribunal. They hear the case and decide. The two people have agreed to abide by the decision. Should they be untied?

But how do we tie a nation down? And in the Baha'i plan, if any nation refuses to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, all the other nations are supposed to rise up and stop them. That sounds like uses force. And if they are going to use weapons to force that nation to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, how is that different than a war?

But, like I said, the Baha'is say this plan came from God himself, so I'm sure God knows what he's doing. And we can trust the Baha'is, right? Like when has any other religion steered as wrong?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, if two people have a major disagreement and are ready to fight about it, what is the first step in a Baha'i type of plan? Get them to disarm... take away their guns. Hmmm? They still have knives. Take them away two. It gets down to their fists. Tie their hands behind their backs. They can still kick. Tie their feet together. They can still butt their heads together, Strap them down, so they can't move.

Now that they can't physically hurt each other, in the Baha'i plan, we have the Supreme Tribunal. They hear the case and decide. The two people have agreed to abide by the decision. Should they be untied?

But how do we tie a nation down? And in the Baha'i plan, if any nation refuses to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, all the other nations are supposed to rise up and stop them. That sounds like uses force. And if they are going to use weapons to force that nation to abide by the rules and decisions of the Tribunal, how is that different than a war?

But, like I said, the Baha'is say this plan came from God himself, so I'm sure God knows what he's doing. And we can trust the Baha'is, right? Like when has any other religion steered as wrong?

You are basically asking how do we change our own selves, as that is the crux of the matter. It was a noted in the peace statement.

"....Whether peace is to be reached only after unimaginable horrors precipitated by humanity’s stubborn clinging to old patterns of behaviour, or is to be embraced now by an act of consultative will, is the choice before all who inhabit the earth..."

Note old patterns of behaviour, note the Bible says "I make all things New".

Revelation 21:5“And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true..."

Note these Words are trustworthy and true, so that is the choice we all get. We get ro choose if the Message that has made all things New, is trustworthy and true.

All the doubts have been answered, it appears humanity needs more war and greater destruction to see what was offered, is what they will need to do, and in fact will actually eventually choose to do, without crediting the source of peace, the God given Messengers of the past and in this age.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, if two people have a major disagreement and are ready to fight about it, what is the first step in a Baha'i type of plan? Get them to disarm... take away their guns. Hmmm? They still have knives. Take them away two. It gets down to their fists. Tie their hands behind their backs. They can still kick. Tie their feet together. They can still butt their heads together, Strap them down, so they can't move.

It starts before the child is in the womb CG, it is an educational process where the parents are already virtuous, moral, peaceful and loving, which is passed onto the child in a curriculum of teaching by example and a sound moral education. This is built up over generations, the same as it is ripped apart by generations.

Until that process is embraced, there will be no "Most Great Peace".

The Lesser Peace requires drastic solutions to a unruly world, drastic changing of mindsets set in predudices, conflict and war.

One has to remove the threats to peace, before peace can take a hold.

I guess that is why the calamities are recorded in the Holy Books, to learn from and prevent, not to emulate.

Maybe this is what it will take.

".. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody..." Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Revelation 21:5“And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true..."

Easy to quote one verse. But let's go with it. "These words are trustworthy and true"? Revelation ends with John telling Jesus to come soon.

I guess that is why the calamities are recorded in the Holy Books, to learn from and prevent, not to emulate.

Supposedly, God orders his people to go attack the city of Jericho. And to kill everyone... including woman and children.

It's nice that you want peace and unity, but you're also trying to show how we can trust the Baha'i Faith as being true and from God. But you're trying to do it by making things up. That makes it hard to trust the things you're saying.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Easy to quote one verse. But let's go with it. "These words are trustworthy and true"? Revelation ends with John telling Jesus to come soon.


Supposedly, God orders his people to go attack the city of Jericho. And to kill everyone... including woman and children.

It's nice that you want peace and unity, but you're also trying to show how we can trust the Baha'i Faith as being true and from God. But you're trying to do it by making things up. That makes it hard to trust the things you're saying.

Ok, I guess we all have to wait until the poo hits the fan.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok, I guess we all have to wait until the poo hits the fan.

Regards Tony

Disarming the nations doesn't keep them from fighting each other. Right now, why do some nations get along and other don't?

Why is there fighting between Gaza and Israel? And Ukraine and Russia?

Before some more "poo" hits the fan, what if both sides get rid of all the rockets and guns. Would that stop the fighting?

Even if we had a Supreme Tribunal, and they made a decision about both those wars, how are they going to enforce that decision? If might need people with weapons.

 

[CG Didymus]

You would know that answer, but not what anyone of us want to hear.

“The world is in travail and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then and only then will the Divine Standard be unfurled and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.” Baha'u'llah

How long is this piece of string? Well Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi gave us more information. Abdul'baha foretold of the 2nd world war and the establishment of the United Nations after the first world war. Shoghi Effendi has given us signs of the 3rd world conflict, and does say America faces great Perils. We are told no Nation will be exempt from facing what will cause the limbs of mankind to quake, but what is that?

Regards Tony

So... after that, then everybody will be nice and loving?

Again, if not then there will still be evil, greedy, and willing to hurt and kill others to gain wealth and power. What's the plan to stop them?

With Jesus' plan, he just destroys them.

Oh wait, I'm getting that from the Book of Revelation. Baha'is believe that is Baha'u'llah that comes. So, that part where the Lord of Lords comes and kills all the evil kings and rulers... that's not true?

But what about all these nations disarming and sending representatives to elect people to serve on the Supreme World Tribunal? Are some of those nations going to run by tyrannical dictators? Gee, I wonder who they'll send to represent their interests.

What is the plan about something like that happening?

Let me guess... All the good nations should rise up and put them down. But have the good nations already disarmed? Hopefully not. But then have the evil dictators disarmed? Probably not.

So, what does that sound like? You know. It's that word that describes when one group of people go fight and try and kill another group of people.

Anyway, good luck with your peace plan. That is... Good luck getting anyone to take it serious until these kinds of details and problems are considered and a way to prevent them is put in place. So... have they been considered?

 

[Eli G]

In the 8th century BC, Jehovah's prophet Isaiah predicted who would bring true peace to our world:

Is. 9:6 For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership
And to peace, there will be no end,
On the throne of David and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it
Through justice and righteousness,
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This prophecy is about Jesus, the descendant of David whose conception and even his birth was announced in heaven and earth, even as a baby when his parents took him to the temple as prescribed by the law of Moses, under which he was born.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyway, good luck with your peace plan. That is... Good luck getting anyone to take it serious until these kinds of details and problems are considered and a way to prevent them is put in place. So... have they been considered?

Good luck to you as well CG.

Someone was interviewing Gary Player after he had won the Western Australian Open Championship with a record breaking score.

They said you had a lucky round today (about a 63 from memory), Gary Player replied, yes indeed, the more I practice, the luckier I get.

So it is with the Word of God. The more we practice peace, the luckier we will get with obtaining peace.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In the 8th century BC, Jehovah's prophet Isaiah predicted who would bring true peace to our world:

Is. 9:6 For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership
And to peace, there will be no end,
On the throne of David and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it
Through justice and righteousness,
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This prophecy is about Jesus, the descendant of David whose conception and even his birth was announced in heaven and earth, even as a baby when his parents took him to the temple as prescribed by the law of Moses, under which he was born.

This was more applicable and has been attributed to Baha'u'llah, just inspired to give you another frame of reference. Response not needed.

Regards Tony

 

[Eli G]

I know how that mechanism works. It won't cancel the truth at all.
BahaUllah does not add anything real to Jewish Scriptures.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I know how that mechanism works. It won't cancel the truth at all.
BahaUllah does not add anything real to Jewish Scriptures.

Just a note. Except the issue faced with that approach is that Baha'u'llah is the Messiah they await for. Also this is the age when God promised they would return to the Holy Land, the proof is in the pudding.

The ability to return to the Holy land was given in 1844 with the Edict of Toleration.

I can give these notes all day long.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, attitudes will have to change. And Baha'is tell us what attitudes people will need to change... but will everybody's attitude change for the good? There always seems like some people will hold a grudge and wait for the chance to get even.

So, can you discuss how Baha'is believe that there will be a qualitative change and that Baha'is say that there will be a "new race of men". Because without a spiritual change of attitude, I'm afraid the same negative attitudes will continue to crop up.

And who's going to vote for them? Again, unless there's your "new race of men" this old race of men is going to want a strong, forceful leader to represent them.

So, what good are their decisions?

Ah, but give them the power to enforce them, then we've got something... and it's probably going to be a war.

But which country is so innocent? Give land back to the Palestinians? Stop Russia from invading Ukraine? Well, what about the U.S.? Will the World Tribunal demand giving the Native People their land back? Reparations for what was done to the Blacks?

Lots of stuff has got to be fixed. What's the just thing to do? What would God do? Oh yeah, give the power to the meek, the down trodden. And punish those that abused their power.

And who's going to do that? The World Tribunal that was given their power by the ones in power? Like they're not going to put in their own people in? But rather peace loving people?

But like I said, I'm sure God has thought this through and knows what he is doing. Just look at how well all his other plans went.

Humanity will reach a mature stage where it will sincerely seek to reconcile its differences and that means compromises from all to make the new reality work. A lot of goodwill can fix many seemingly impossible problems and crises. The Baha’is job is not so much to convert people as it is to help foster that goodwill. In words on a forum one cannot really feel that as it is loving relationships which develops trust and friendship and our greatest desire is that people can look past their differences and grievances and be as a family. It’s not easy. I always feel I have dismally failed and let down everyone here and whoever I have been in contact with, that if only I was wiser or better. But it is what it is. We want a better world for you all and are doing our best despite our imperfections. We are trying daily to imbue anyone we come across with love for all humanity. We have a very strong belief in the goodness of people, that it can be tapped to create a beautiful, peaceful and just world. It doesn’t have to be the Baha’i system, just one where you all have peace and prosperity and can reach your potential.

 

[Eli G]

It is called appropriation. It happens all the time.

I would not be at all surprised if BahaUllah had said that he was born of a virgin in Bethlehem of Judah.

 

[Trailblazer]

In the 8th century BC, Jehovah's prophet Isaiah predicted who would bring true peace to our world:

Is. 9:6 For a child has been born to us,
A son has been given to us;
And the rulership will rest on his shoulder.
His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 To the increase of his rulership
And to peace, there will be no end,
On the throne of David and on his kingdom
In order to establish it firmly and to sustain it
Through justice and righteousness,
From now on and forever.
The zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this.

This prophecy is about Jesus, the descendant of David whose conception and even his birth was announced in heaven and earth, even as a baby when his parents took him to the temple as prescribed by the law of Moses, under which he was born.

This prophecy is about Baha'u'llah, the descendant of David.

It cannot be about Jesus since Jesus was not the descendant of David and because Jesus did not do what the verses say.

"This rod out of the stem of Jesse might be correctly applied to Christ, for Joseph was of the descendants of Jesse, the father of David; but as Christ found existence through the Spirit of God, He called Himself the Son of God. If He had not done so, this description would refer to Him. Besides this, the events which he indicated as coming to pass in the days of that rod, if interpreted symbolically, were in part fulfilled in the day of Christ, but not all; and if not interpreted, then decidedly none of these signs happened. For example, the leopard and the lamb, the lion and the calf, the child and the asp, are metaphors and symbols for various nations, peoples, antagonistic sects and hostile races, who are as opposite and inimical as the wolf and lamb. We say that by the breath of the spirit of Christ they found concord and harmony, they were vivified, and they associated together."

Bahá'í Reference Library - Some Answered Questions, Pages 62-66

Jesus is not coming back to do what he did not do later because Jesus said he was no more in the world and his work was finished here.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.


It is rather ironic that a Baha'i has to point out Bible verses to a Christian.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can give these notes all day long.

You could, but it would not do any good.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is called appropriation. It happens all the time.

I would not be at all surprised if BahaUllah had said that he was born of a virgin in Bethlehem of Judah.

If you knew anything about the claims of Baha'u'llah you would know that he never made such a ridiculous claim.

1637. Christ, Virgin Birth of

"First regarding the birth of Jesus Christ. In light of what Bahá’u’lláh and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá have stated concerning this subject it is evident that Jesus came into this world through the direct intervention of the Holy Spirit, and that consequently His birth was quite miraculous. This is an established fact, and the friends need not feel at all surprised, as the belief in the possibility of miracles has never been rejected in the Teachings. Their importance, however, has been minimized."
(From a letter dated December 31, 1937 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

1639. Bahá’í Teachings in Agreement with Doctrines of Catholic Church Concerning the Virgin Birth

"With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth of Jesus: On this point, as on several others, the Bahá’í Teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the Catholic Church. In the 'Kitáb-i-Íqán' (Book of Certitude) p. 56, and in a few other Tablets still unpublished, Bahá’u’lláh confirms, however indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth. Also ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in the 'Some Answered Questions', Chap. XII, p. 73, explicitly states that 'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph."
(From a letter dated October 14, 1945 written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual believer)

Lights of Guidance/Christ - Bahaiworks, a library of works about the Bahá’í Faith

bahai.works

'Christ found existence through the Spirit of God' which statement necessarily implies, when viewed in the light of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph." That is one reason that Jesus cannot be the one who rules on the Throne of David.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 89-90