But you said you were okay with abortion...

[waitasec]

Actually, once the dad starts molesting the children or the mom starts trying to kill dad, they are ( at very least ) not honoring their spouses. Which means they broke their promises. It was an agreement where both parts made a promise. If one side breaks their promise, the other is certainly not expected to keep it.

interesting twist.
question though, would this promise be based on what they both agreed, at that time, was honorable...?

 

[Koldo]

Yeah. Those weren't my examples though. Very often people simply change or outgrow one another. They no longer share the same goals and visions and can't partner amicably due to irreconcilable differences. This would constitute the majority of divorces. No one's fault really. Life changes. People change. Circumstances and needs and dreams change. That's just the way of life and people.

Therefore, one shouldn't make the promise to be married with someone 'until death'...

 

[NIX]

Therefore, one shouldn't make the promise to be married with someone 'until death'...

As I said before, 'until death or divorce' (do you part) would be far more legally accurate. Or just don't make promises you don't know for a fact you can (or will want to, or will be able to) keep, maybe is the better way to go in general.

 

[Koldo]

interesting twist.
question though, would this promise be based on what they both agreed, at that time, was honorable...?

It would be based on what is understood as 'honor' by them and/or by society in general at any time. ( Abstract concepts don't make good promises. )

 

[Koldo]

As I said before, 'until death or divorce' (do you part) would be far more legally accurate. Or just don't make promises you don't know for a fact you can (or will want to, or will be able to) keep, maybe is the better way to go in general.

Yes. :yes:

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Weird hypothetical situation?
A situation where a woman changes her mind about abortion is weird?

No, a situation where two people make arrangements about abortions pior to sex is weird.

And what do you mean by being okay with this situation?

I mean that it seems to me that this is one more in a recent series of threads where people try to catch pro-choicers in what they think in hypocrisy, not realizing that the apparent hypocrisy comes from a misunderstanding on the part of the person posing the problem for discussion.

 

[Koldo]

No, a situation where two people make arrangements about abortions pior to sex is weird.

How is it weird?
Have you never talked about contraceptive methods with your spouse/girlfriend? Why shouldn't/wouldn't this conversation involve the theme 'abortion'?

I mean that it seems to me that this is one more in a recent series of threads where people try to catch pro-choicers in what they think in hypocrisy, not realizing that the apparent hypocrisy comes from a misunderstanding on the part of the person posing the problem for discussion.

This doesn't make sense in this case...
I am pro-choice.

 

[jarofthoughts]

In other words, Ana won't have to take responsibility for her promise.

You absolutely do not care about this.

Simple indeed.

I care more about the well-being of a child who had no say in all of this than I do about two adults who willingly decided to have sex without thinking about the potential consequences.

That HAS to go before all else in this situation.

 

[ChristineES]

I don't see much legal difference between this Lady-Man scenario and the Harry-Ana scenario.

Only difference is that in the Harry-Ana scenario the lie was not mad on purpose.
But how would Lady prove that Man had lied about the vasectomy?
If she wanted to be sure she should have asked for medical evidence that this was in fact the case. She didn't so she is also responsible for not making sure she did not get pregnant.

Both Lady and Man share the responsibility and both have to support the child un less they can work out an agreement between them which releases one of them from the responsibility.

It isn't different than the original story at all-- I just swapped the male and female. Anyone who makes a baby has to pay for it. People lie all the time-- you can't always take his or her word for it. It just seems that the woman gets the brunt of the consequences since she is the one who gets pregnant. She can't run away from it the way a man is able to. But a lot of people debating seemed to think that only women lie and men are just innocent victims when it comes to pregnancy and I wanted to illustrate that it's a two-way street.

 

[Koldo]

I care more about the well-being of a child who had no say in all of this than I do about two adults who willingly decided to have sex without thinking about the potential consequences.

That HAS to go before all else in this situation.

They both thought about the potential consequences. I said as much in the OP.

Either way, what should happen to Ana for not keeping her word?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

They both thought about the potential consequences. I said as much in the OP.

Either way, what should happen to Ana for not keeping her word?

The same thing that happens to anyone else when they don't keep their word.

Most of the time, it doesn't change a thing.

 

[jarofthoughts]

They both thought about the potential consequences. I said as much in the OP.

Either way, what should happen to Ana for not keeping her word?

She should not be trusted maybe?
Seriously, people change their minds all the time, and deciding whether to have an abortion or not is a big decision.
Besides, it changes the fact that the guy should step up and take responsibility not one bit.

 

[Koldo]

The same thing that happens to anyone else when they don't keep their word.

Most of the time, it doesn't change a thing.

She should not be trusted maybe?
Seriously, people change their minds all the time, and deciding whether to have an abortion or not is a big decision.
Besides, it changes the fact that the guy should step up and take responsibility not one bit.

In other words, none of you care about it at all.
It doesn't matter if she made such an important promise and didn't keep her word.
I guess not much can said after this point. There is simply too big of a gap between our moral codes.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In other words, none of you care about it at all.
It doesn't matter if she made such an important promise and didn't keep her word.
I guess not much can said after this point. There is simply too big of a gap between our moral codes.

Wait - so now you want this to be about morality? This started as a discussion about the law.

It would matter to me to the extent that I think the woman was silly to make a promise like that (just as I would think that the man was silly to rely on it), but legally, it doesn't matter.

This isn't about my moral code; it's about not imposing my moral code on the law.

 

[Koldo]

Wait - so now you want this to be about morality? This started as a discussion about the law.

It would matter to me to the extent that I think the woman was silly to make a promise like that (just as I would think that the man was silly to rely on it), but legally, it doesn't matter.

This isn't about my moral code; it's about not imposing my moral code on the law.

Do you see no relation between morality and laws?

 

[jarofthoughts]

In other words, none of you care about it at all.
It doesn't matter if she made such an important promise and didn't keep her word.
I guess not much can said after this point. There is simply too big of a gap between our moral codes.

Of course I think people should keep their promises.
But when that promise is broken and the result is a child, the well-being of that child takes precedence over any other disputes that might have been.

 

[Koldo]

Of course I think people should keep their promises.
But when that promise is broken and the result is a child, the well-being of that child takes precedence over any other disputes that might have been.

Haven't you ever thought there could be a solution where the well-being of the child is preserved and, at the same, Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you see no relation between morality and laws?

No, not really.

Law is about two main things:

- prevention/reduction of harm
- providing an organizational framework for society to work effectively

Lots of people consider it to be immoral to inflict harm, so there tends to be some overlap between what people consider immoral and what's illegal, but there are different factors at play in the two determinations.

There are plenty of things that I find immoral that I would never want to be illegal. There are also plenty of laws that I don't think have anything to do with morality.

 

[jarofthoughts]

Haven't you ever thought there could be a solution where the well-being of the child is preserved and, at the same, Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise?

Not one that could be used consistently across the many many such cases we have to deal with, no.
Also, I am very much in favor of people taking responsibility, especially when it comes to their children.
In fact, if it turns out that Ana is, at her core, immoral, I see even more reason for the father to take a more hands on approach for the sake of the child.

 

[NIX]

Yes. :yes:

So if all women were not stupid enough to make promises that they would abort before hand (as a statement of fool proof birthcontrol for the man), how many men not wanting children or child support would STOP having sex altogether to avoid the risk. I'm thinking not too many at all. And at that they are in the same 'take your chances' boat- but this time without the illusion of a (get away) paddle.

This whole thread is a lesson to women- don't make promises. Period.