But you said you were okay with abortion...

[MysticSang'ha]

Haven't you ever thought there could be a solution where the well-being of the child is preserved and, at the same, Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise?

Sure. In a demented world, Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise by punishment in jail, or fines, or maybe public lashing.

Or, wait...I got it....Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise to get an abortion by being abandoned by the father. She should have known better anyway, right?

Or how about the dad just kills her for breaking her word?

Oh that's right. That crap already happens in THIS world, and loud mouthed feminists like myself are saying that it's wrong.

 

[s2a]

Imagine the following scenario:

'Harry is dating Ana. They thoroughly spoke about how an unplanned pregnancy would be dealt it, and it was agreed that abortion would be an acceptable method. Months later, Ana got pregnant. And she decided she wouldn't go through the abortion anymore. Ana didn't try to deceive Harry when she agreed with abortion back then; she simply had a change of mind after she got pregnant.'

Both sides ( Harry and Ana ) agree to this version of the story.

How should the judiciary system ( laws ) deal with this situation?
Should Ana be forced to undergo an abortion ( of her fetus ), even though her health is being ( more or less ) compromised by this invasive procedure ?
Should Harry be forced to financially support the newborn, even though Ana had previously agreed to abort the fetus in cases of unplanned pregnancy ?
Should Harry be able to renounce his rights to the child to avoid financially supporting it?
How should this issue be settled?

Ana has the final say. Period.

Next?

 

[NIX]

Ana has the final say. Period.

Next?

Rock Paper Scissors

Exactly. Ana has the final say.
And for all that we go through bringing new lives into the world, at least that one thing is as it should be. In this country anyway.

 

[Kerr]

In other words, none of you care about it at all.
It doesn't matter if she made such an important promise and didn't keep her word.
I guess not much can said after this point. There is simply too big of a gap between our moral codes.

The baby has a higher moral priority then a promise. Simple as that.

 

[Koldo]

No, not really.

Law is about two main things:

- prevention/reduction of harm
- providing an organizational framework for society to work effectively

Lots of people consider it to be immoral to inflict harm, so there tends to be some overlap between what people consider immoral and what's illegal, but there are different factors at play in the two determinations.

There are plenty of things that I find immoral that I would never want to be illegal.

No matter how you look at it, the main point of any law is to be an instrument used to enforce something. Laws dictate behaviour, just like morality. Therefore, laws can be ( and are ) used as a mean to enforce a given morality.

The harm principle, for example, is deeply rooted within the idea that doing harm is (morally) wrong.

Quite in fact, the whole concept of 'justice' is grounded on morality.

There are also plenty of laws that I don't think have anything to do with morality.

There are indeed laws that have nothing to do with morality.

 

[Koldo]

Not one that could be used consistently across the many many such cases we have to deal with, no.
Also, I am very much in favor of people taking responsibility, especially when it comes to their children.
In fact, if it turns out that Ana is, at her core, immoral, I see even more reason for the father to take a more hands on approach for the sake of the child.

Harry is going to take responsbility. Quite in fact, even he didn't want to, he would be forced to, currently.

But what should happen to Ana?
I am very much in favour of people taking responsibility too.

 

[Willamena]

No matter how you look at it, the main point of any law is to be an instrument used to enforce something. Laws dictate behaviour, just like morality. Therefore, laws can be ( and are ) used as a mean to enforce a given morality.

Laws don't dictate behavior--if they did, there would be no one in prison.

 

[Koldo]

So if all women were not stupid enough to make promises that they would abort before hand (as a statement of fool proof birthcontrol for the man), how many men not wanting children or child support would STOP having sex altogether to avoid the risk. I'm thinking not too many at all.

Not many indeed.

And at that they are in the same 'take your chances' boat- but this time without the illusion of a (get away) paddle.

Illusion? Would every women break such a promise? It might be factual in several cases.

This whole thread is a lesson to women- don't make promises. Period.

Or, take responsibility for the promises you make.

 

[NIX]

Harry is going to take responsbility. Quite in fact, even he didn't want to, he would be forced to, currently.

But what should happen to Ana?
I am very much in favour of people taking responsibility too.

The only thing harder than caring for a baby and raising a child is doing it while you also work full time. Which (unless I missed something in the scenario) it's safe to assume Ana will be doing? Work all day, care for baby all night. What added kink would you like to add to her life as a scolding? Maybe if you cause her enough additional stress and emotional turmoil you can compromise her ability to be a happy, healthy, stable mother for the child. Punish them both why not. They've both made a misery of your life.

The fall out of your resentment is always going to land on the child- who is completely innocent in all of this.

 

[Koldo]

Sure. In a demented world, Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise by punishment in jail, or fines, or maybe public lashing.

Or, wait...I got it....Ana takes responsibility for breaking her promise to get an abortion by being abandoned by the father. She should have known better anyway, right?

Or how about the dad just kills her for breaking her word?

Oh that's right. That crap already happens in THIS world, and loud mouthed feminists like myself are saying that it's wrong.

Can you stop putting a spin into what i say?
I never suggested women ( who break this promise ) should be killed, jailed or go through public lashing.
Making a mention to those things was completely uncalled for and definetely rude

 

[Koldo]

Ana has the final say. Period.

Next?

The final say on what?

 

[Koldo]

The baby has a higher moral priority then a promise. Simple as that.

And? What do you mean by that?

 

[Willamena]

Harry is going to take responsbility. Quite in fact, even he didn't want to, he would be forced to, currently.

Harry has options. He can arrange legally to surrender his non-custodial support to any other willing party. Usually grandparents of the child are more than willing, or it could be aunts and uncles, or a friend of the family...

 

[Koldo]

Laws don't dictate behavior--if they did, there would be no one in prison.

I don't mean 'dictate behaviour' as in what you must/musn't do, but rather as in what you should/shouldn't do.

The same applies to morality though.

 

[NIX]

Not many indeed.



Illusion? Would every women break such a promise? It might be factual in several cases.



Or, take responsibility for the promises you make.

No. The promise is always a get away illusion. What the woman actually decides to do under the duress and reality of being IN the situation, will either be your luck or your loss (depending even on what you actually find YOU wanted). EVERY time you have sex- even well protected sex- you play the Wild Card. At least the use of birth control gives you far better odds than a casino. For women pregnancy itself can be another kind of wildcard altogether. They can wind up more surprised than anyone else with what they find they do or don't need to do. It would be most pragmatic if everyone realized this.

Don't make any promises is ALWAYS the better thing, though men wanting a promise will beg to differ. This is because they see the promise as their get away ticket. Women would be wise not to encourage this illusion from the get go. The VAST majority of men will chose to go ahead and have the sex anyway. But then they can't argue/rationalize later that they had no idea there was a Wild Card in the deck.

 

[Koldo]

The only thing harder than caring for a baby and raising a child is doing it while you also work full time. Which (unless I missed something in the scenario) it's safe to assume Ana will be doing? Work all day, care for baby all night. What added kink would you like to add to her life as a scolding? Maybe if you cause her enough additional stress and emotional turmoil you can compromise her ability to be a happy, healthy, stable mother for the child. Punish them both why not. They've both made a misery of your life.

The fall out of your resentment is always going to land on the child- who is completely innocent in all of this.

It was strictly her choice to have baby.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Can you stop putting a spin into what i say?
I never suggested women ( who break this promise ) should be killed, jailed or go through public lashing.
Making a mention to those things was completely uncalled for and definetely rude

Ah, gotcha. Your insistence on how a woman needs to take responsibility for her actions means.....what, exactly?

Just go through with the pregnancy? Is that all, Mr. "So What?"

Talk about an uncalled for and rude response.....

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No matter how you look at it, the main point of any law is to be an instrument used to enforce something. Laws dictate behaviour, just like morality. Therefore, laws can be ( and are ) used as a mean to enforce a given morality.

The harm principle, for example, is deeply rooted within the idea that doing harm is (morally) wrong.

Quite in fact, the whole concept of 'justice' is grounded on morality.

You and I have very different ideas about the law.

Do you think that lying is moral or just? How about insulting another person? Adultery? I consider all of these things immoral, but I don't seek to make any of them illegal.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think this thread proves that feminism exists for plenty of reasons, and that is as it should be. We can only hope that there won't be a need for it in upcoming years/decades, though. At least I hope so.

 

[NIX]

The final say on what?

On what happens regarding the pregnancy? It's best to just realize and accept the full ramifications of this from the get go. It's called reality.