By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Hockeycowboy]

Well, I have no doubt, but the better question is, would he see fit to do so? Stumbling blocks are unfortunate, but they aren't necessarily the responsibility of Jehovah God to protect us from them. That is more likely our own responsibility.

When you said, “would he see fit to do so”, did you mean ‘would Jehovah “see fit” to allow His Word to be tampered with’?

Yes, up to a point. (Look at His Name - the Tetragrammaton - being removed.) But by praying to Him & through serious study, the truth within its pages can be found.

Hugh - You seem like someone I know in Arizona?

Later, my cousin.

 

[I Am Hugh]

The Bible was quoting Satan. It was his words to Eve. The Bible (well, Moses was given the information) was just recording / documenting the conversation.

That in no way makes the Bible wrong …. anymore than it makes me wrong if someone told me they saw George Washington walking down the street and then I told you what this liar said.

If the Bible didn’t record the lie (in Genesis 3), then we wouldn’t understand why Jesus called Satan the “father of the lie” @ John 8:44.

— Am I missing your point? —

No. That is the point. In order to tell the truth, it sometimes requires a lie, and so, the Bible is not always true in that regard. If someone takes that sort of thing out of context, like skeptics who criticize the Bible saying it says snakes or donkeys talk, they have missed that point. It's an imbalanced contextually inaccurate criticism. But also, when the Bible says something that wasn't true like in the case where it appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor. Sometimes the Bible even gives details of earlier events using references that didn't exist at that time. For example, at Genesis 3:24 the cherubs use a flaming blade of a sword to prevent Adam and Eve from returning. No such thing existed. Metal hadn't been developed, there were no swords, what the angels had was something that appeared like something we would later know as a sword. At Genesis 2:10-14 the geographical details of Eden are given with reference to one river "to the East of Assyria" when Assyria certainly didn't exist then. But it was familiar to the reader who was reading it much later.

This is why you have to know the entire Bible before you start hacking at it like a blind woodsman.

Yes… and it was recorded as such.

Yes, but that isn't always contextually apparent. Someone who knows and loves the Bible may know it, but not someone who either isn't being accurate contextually or fair in their criticism may not know, acknowledge or consider it.

That’s great!
Those who let themselves be “taught by Jehovah” (Isaiah 54:13), always agree! And have “peace”. See Isaiah 2:2-4.

No. I see what you did there, you put a strike through always. Peter and Paul had some heated disagreements, and the early congregation was a diplomatic organization. If they were voting on issues they weren't always in total agreement and some people were being outvoted. That sort of goes without saying, though, no group of people, even as small as two people agree on everything.

 

[I Am Hugh]

When you said, “would he see fit to do so”, did you mean ‘would Jehovah “see fit” to allow His Word to be tampered with’?

Yes, up to a point. (Look at His Name - the Tetragrammaton - being removed.) But by praying to Him & through serious study, the truth within its pages can be found.

Exactly, but it also raises other very important aspects of information. 1. The Bible wasn't written for us specifically in this time and place, it was written specifically for the people it was addressing in their times and places. So, what was true, relevant and applicable then is useful for us as a history or as Jude put it, as an example. (Jude 1:7) That's why the Bible isn't the inspired, infallible, perfect word of Jehovah God, it is the uninspired, fallible, imperfect translation of Jehovah God's word. And 2. Although knowledge is very important, faith is more important than knowledge.

Hugh - You seem like someone I know in Arizona?

I've always wanted to visit Arizona, but I never have. I guess I just seem like the person you know from there.

Later, my cousin.

Sure, I look forward to that.

 

[Balthazzar]

Which parts do you consider true? Please be specific.

The parts that make sense to me as a truth. To be any more specific, I'd be required to place more text on this post than anyone here is likely willing to read. This isn't to suggest that I find all of it to be true, just that I understand a great deal of it to be, practically speaking.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

No. I see what you did there, you put a strike through always.

‘What I did’, was make a mistake.

Thanks for pointing it out.
I corrected it.

Again, I stress: the Bible’s O.M. (Original Manuscripts) had no errors.

Translations, however, are full of them.

Jehovah’s people “speak in agreement”, as Paul stated they would. — 1 Corinthians 1:10

 

[Hockeycowboy]

That's why the Bible isn't the inspired, infallible, perfect word of Jehovah God….

You threw me here, but then you followed with…

…it is the uninspired, fallible, imperfect translation of Jehovah God's word.

Yes. All translations (and copies) of the Scriptures are “uninspired”.

Though the truth in it can still be found, with Jehovah’s help. And the organization He uses.

He’s always had an organization to guide His people: from ancient Israel to today.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

But also, when the Bible says something that wasn't true like in the case where it appears that Samuel's "spirit" is summoned by the witch of En-dor.

Yes, i understand your point here.

It would have been nice if Jehovah had the writer add, “A demon pretending to be Samuel’s spirit said:”!! That would have helped!

But, we know “the dead know nothing.” When he dies, man’s “spirit goes out; he returns to the ground. In that day his thoughts / plans perish.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 146:4. Agrees with what God told Adam @ Genesis 3:19) Based on this, we know it couldn’t have been Samuel. But this is because the Bible tells us.
It’s basically informing us that incidents such as this can happen … the demons can mislead humans in this way. In fact, they are very active in promoting life-after-death scenarios…. And humans easily fall for this, because they want to believe their dead loved ones are “alive in another realm.”
So it’s understandable how such a belief is so prevalent, in almost every religion! Satan & the demons take advantage of humans’ desires.
But “inquiring of the dead” is lumped along with “magic”,“sorcery” & “foretunetelling”, things that God abhors, at Deuteronomy 18:10-12.
That should be enough.

The demons have been willing to do anything it takes to keep people from searching for spiritual truth, and looking for our Creator.

Interesting thing about that conversation…. the demon told Samuel, “this time tomorrow, you’ll be with me.” (IOW, dead.)
Now Samuel was faithful; King Saul was bad. Now is that what most people believe, especially in Christendom? No! The bad & good who die, aren’t “with” each other!
So even there, we see discrepancies. But the Bible informs us about these lies.

Have a good one.

 

[YoursTrue]

You threw me here, but then you followed with…


Yes. All translations (and copies) of the Scriptures are “uninspired”.

Though the truth in it can still be found, with Jehovah’s help. And the organization He uses.

He’s always had an organization to guide His people: from ancient Israel to today.

It's almost like teaching a person to read. No one can figure out how to read unless they have an instructor.

 

[metis]

Again, I stress: the Bible’s O.M. (Original Manuscripts) had no errors.

How could one possibly know that?

 

[jimb]

How could one possibly know that?

By definition, an original has no errors (not referring to the grammatical mistakes, of course).

 

[jimb]

‘What I did’, was make a mistake.

Thanks for pointing it out.
I corrected it.

Again, I stress: the Bible’s O.M. (Original Manuscripts) had no errors.

Translations, however, are full of them.

Jehovah’s people “speak in agreement”, as Paul stated they would. — 1 Corinthians 1:10

Stating that translations are full of errors is silly. A translation (into another language) cannot possibly be the same as the original, since vocabulary, verb tenses, shades of meaning, etc. will always differ.

1 Corinthians 1:10-12, " I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Clearly, they were not in agreement, otherwise Paul would not have asked them to agree with one another.

 

[metis]

By definition, an original has no errors (not referring to the grammatical mistakes, of course).

Not quite as an author may write from oral traditions.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then why is it forbidden in the Bible to consult the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10–12)?

According to the Bible, Jesus mentioned the appearance of a ghost because his disciples thought he was a ghost (Luke 24:37–39). Why would he have mentioned the appearance of a human ghost when the dead are forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5) or if he and his disciples didn't believe that they existed and were actually demons in disguise? And in an account of his alleged resurrection, Matthew 27:51–53 states, "At that moment, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split, and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city, and appeared to many people." This sounds paranormal to me.

Furthermore, 1 Samuel 28:7–20 mentions the ghost of Samuel communicating with King Saul and warning him that God would deliver both him and Israel into the hands of the Philistines because of his disobedience. There is no mention in these verses that the spirit he spoke to was anything else but the spirit of Samuel. However, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. Wouldn't it have been more of an accurate account of this alleged interaction if it were specified that the spirit King Saul spoke to was a demon in disguise? Well, I can read these verses and see that there is no mention that the spirit he spoke to was a demon. What an ironic story it is to find in the Bible about King Saul using a psychic medium to communicate directly with the spirit of the prophet Samuel, especially given its claim that the dead know nothing and their names are forgotten. Again, why is it forbidden to consult the dead?

If the dead know nothing, then how would they know if they are either in heaven or hell? For example, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"). It is a parable of a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades, was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham from afar, and also pleaded with Abraham to help him.

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten. However, it conflicts with other scriptures that suggest there are final rewards given in heaven (such as these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). It seems like a conflicting message.

After extensive reading, study, and examination of the Bible, I've found that Ecclesiastes 3:21 specifies that human spirits and the spirit of the animal rise upward from the earth. Revelation 20:13 states that spirits rise up from the sea and Hades. Also, Hebrews 9:27 states that people are destined to die once and, after that, face judgment, and 2 Corinthians 5:8 suggests that believers are in the presence of Jesus after death. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15, both believers and unbelievers' spirits are sleeping in their graves and awaiting God's judgment in the end times. Furthermore, there are other scriptures that describe "soul sleep" (Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, John 11:11–15) as well. Given these conflicting verses, it's not surprising to me that Christians disagree about what happens to people after death.

 

[Trailblazer]

If the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then why is it forbidden in the Bible to consult the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10–12)?

According to the Bible, Jesus mentioned the appearance of a ghost because his disciples thought he was a ghost (Luke 24:37–39). Why would he have mentioned the appearance of a human ghost when the dead are forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5) or if he and his disciples didn't believe that they existed and were actually demons in disguise? And in an account of his alleged resurrection, Matthew 27:51–53 states, "At that moment, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split, and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city, and appeared to many people." This sounds paranormal to me.

Furthermore, 1 Samuel 28:7–20 mentions the ghost of Samuel communicating with King Saul and warning him that God would deliver both him and Israel into the hands of the Philistines because of his disobedience. There is no mention in these verses that the spirit he spoke to was anything else but the spirit of Samuel. However, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. Wouldn't it have been more of an accurate account of this alleged interaction if it were specified that the spirit King Saul spoke to was a demon in disguise? Well, I can read these verses and see that there is no mention that the spirit he spoke to was a demon. What an ironic story it is to find in the Bible about King Saul using a psychic medium to communicate directly with the spirit of the prophet Samuel, especially given its claim that the dead know nothing and their names are forgotten. Again, why is it forbidden to consult the dead?

If the dead know nothing, then how would they know if they are either in heaven or hell? For example, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"). It is a parable of a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades, was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham from afar, and also pleaded with Abraham to help him.

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten. However, it conflicts with other scriptures that suggest there are final rewards given in heaven (such as these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). It seems like a conflicting message.

Ecclesiastes 9 NIV

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.


I believe this verse is referring to dead bodies. Of Course dead bodies know nothing, because they are dead, so they have no brain to think and know.
Of course dead bodies will never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun, because they have been buried or cremated.

 

[YoursTrue]

If the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then why is it forbidden in the Bible to consult the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10–12)?

Because God knew that people can be swayed in the wrong direction.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Ecclesiastes 9 NIV

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.


I believe this verse is referring to dead bodies. Of Course dead bodies know nothing, because they are dead, so they have no brain to think and know.
Of course dead bodies will never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun, because they have been buried or cremated.

This is also my understanding of these verses.

 

[YoursTrue]

Ecclesiastes 9 NIV

5 For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.
6 Their love, their hate
and their jealousy have long since vanished;
never again will they have a part
in anything that happens under the sun.


I believe this verse is referring to dead bodies. Of Course dead bodies know nothing, because they are dead, so they have no brain to think and know.
Of course dead bodies will never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun, because they have been buried or cremated.

God can put all the parts back together again if He wants to.

 

[paarsurrey]

OK, thank you. Reading some of these posts, I wonder how you feel about the Bahai movement.

I have nothing to do with it.
Regards

 

[YoursTrue]

I have nothing to do with it.
Regards

You mean with the Bahai movement, right?

 

[blü 2]

No, the snake wasn’t talking. Being manipulated, yes. Like being a ventriloquist’s puppet. (The Devil is called the “original serpent” / “that old serpent “. Revelation 12:9

I've read and re-read the Garden story numerous times, and despite a close scrutiny I find it never mentions SIN or a Fall of Man, or death entering the world.

There is likewise nothing to identify the snake with the NT Satan ─ as you know, the Tanakh Satan is a member of God's court, as e.g. Job makes clear. The snake speaks only the truth in that story, and it's God who ─ ahm ─ misspeaks when [he] says "in the day that you eat of it you shall die". The snake has accurately told Eve, "You shall not die."

Nor was it possible for Adam and Eve to sin before and at the time they ate the fruit, because God (and this is unambiguous in the tale) has deliberately denied them knowledge of good and evil, making them incapable of intending to do wrong, hence incapable of sin.

And God states [his] only reason for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden at Genesis 3:22-3, and it has everything to do with protecting [his] own position (out loud and proud) and nothing to do with sin.

And the cherry on top is Ezekiel 18, not least 18:20, when he makes the point that sin can't be inherited.

And finally, the Garden story is only a folktale anyway. It has no more power to condemn humans in God's sight than the witch does in Hansel and
Gretel.

As far as I can tell from my reading, the notion that there was a Fall first arose among the Jews of Alexandria late in the second century BCE, from the practice of the midrash tradition (taking a passage of the bible and turning its elements into a flight of fancy). Paul mentions it briefly once or twice, but no one seems to have paid it much attention until Augustine around 400 CE, when it was found to be good for sales. Certainly there's no such claim or anything like one in the Tanakh, nor, as I understand it, is a Fall any part of Jewish understanding.