By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Trailblazer]

God can put all the parts back together again if He wants to.

Even if God could do that why would He want to?
Because you want Him to is no reason for God to do it.

Do you even realize how crazy that sounds, God putting everyone's human body parts back together just so they can live again in this world?

People die and their bodies decay. Then God gives them a new form of some kind, a spiritual body.
Why can't you just accept that you will have a spiritual body? That is what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The Bible does not say that God is going to put our body parts back together again. That is a JW teaching and it has no basis in the Bible.
Why believe that instead of the Bible?

Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in heaven. Our dying bodies cannot inherit heaven, which will last forever.
That is why God will give us spiritual bodies when our physical bodies die, so we can live forever in heaven.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've read and re-read the Garden story numerous times, and despite a close scrutiny I find it never mentions SIN or a Fall of Man, or death entering the world.

There is likewise nothing to identify the snake with the NT Satan ─ as you know, the Tanakh Satan is a member of God's court, as e.g. Job makes clear. The snake speaks only the truth in that story, and it's God who ─ ahm ─ misspeaks when [he] says "in the day that you eat of it you shall die". The snake has accurately already told Eve, "You shall not die."

Nor was it possible for Adam and Eve to sin before and at the time they ate the fruit, because God (and this is unambiguous in the tale) has deliberately denied them knowledge of good and evil, making them incapable of intending to do wrong, hence incapable of sin.

And God states [his] only reason for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden at Genesis 3:22-3, and it has everything to do with protecting [his] own position (out loud and proud) and nothing to do with sin.

And the cherry on top is Ezekiel 18, not least 18:20, when he makes the point that sin can't be inherited.

And finally, the Garden story is only a folktale anyway. It has no more power to condemn humans in God's sight than the witch does in Hansel and
Gretel.

As far as I can tell from my reading, the notion that there was a Fall first arose among the Jews of Alexandria late in the second century BCE, from the practice of the midrash tradition (taking a passage of the bible and turning its elements into a flight of fancy). Paul mentions it briefly once or twice, but no one seems to have paid it much attention until Augustine around 400 CE, when it was found to be good for sales.

So glad you showed up to straighten things out.

 

[walt]

All of it. Unbelief is sin (Romans 14:23)

Very Good Point. I agree with you and another scripture to add that agrees with your comment..
Hebrews 11:6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.

 

[YoursTrue]

Even if God could do that why would He want to?
Because you want Him to is no reason for God to do it.

Do you even realize how crazy that sounds, God putting everyone's human body parts back together just so they can live again in this world?

People die and their bodies decay. Then God gives them a new form of some kind, a spiritual body.
Why can't you just accept that you will have a spiritual body? That is what the Bible says.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”
40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.
51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

The Bible does not say that God is going to put our body parts back together again. That is a JW teaching and it has no basis in the Bible.
Why believe that instead of the Bible?

Our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God which is in heaven. Our dying bodies cannot inherit heaven, which will last forever.
That is why God will give us spiritual bodies when our physical bodies die, so we can live forever in heaven.

I think first you (1) need to pray, and (2) try to understand what the Bible says is the soul and spirit. It isn't what many religions say it is. But anyway, I hope you have a good night, take care. Nothing personal, but I think our little conversation may be closing out soon.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think first you (1) need to pray, and (2) try to understand what the Bible says is the soul and spirit. It isn't what many religions say it is.

I do not understand how this is related to what I was talking about.

What do you think that the Bible says is soul and spirit in the New Testament, not in the Old Testament.

The Old Testament was superseded by the New Testament.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Certainly there's no such claim or anything like one in the Tanakh, nor, as I understand it, is a Fall any part of Jewish understanding.

Hello Blu.

There’s much more of your post I want to address, whether I will get to it is another matter, but regarding the above….

What do you think the Jewish Levitic priesthood, and all those sacrifices the Israelites were required to give, was about?

It was about atonement for their errors, as in, “Day of Atonement”

Later.

 

[paarsurrey]

You mean with the Bahai movement, right?

Yes.
Regards

 

[blü 2]

This is also my understanding of these verses.

I think the words mean what they say, a departure from the theological mindframe of most of the bible into a philosophical one.

As to why it came to be part of the Tanakh, I can only guess ─ possibly its apparent attribution to a son of David gave it sufficient prestige.

As to the text itself, I respectfully disagree that it refers only to the death of the body. It appears to me instead that it includes (at the least) the final termination of personality and memories at the death of the individual. Thus it appears to me that the author of Ecclesiastes treated the breath of God in living things solely as a life force, and NOT a postmortal maintainer of anyone's personal life.

That this doesn't accord with the Christian view seems to me to be irrelevant, since it was written some centuries before Christianity.

Hello Blu.

There’s much more of your post I want to address, whether I will get to it is another matter, but regarding the above….

What do you think the Jewish Levitic priesthood, and all those sacrifices the Israelites were required to give, was about?

It was about atonement for their errors, as in, “Day of Atonement”

Later.

I have only an outsider's understanding of Judaism, but it is my understanding that Jewish beliefs do not include a Fall of Man, but instead place a personal responsibility on each Jewish individual to do the right thing as their religion understands it.

I resist the temptation to try to comment on the relationship between Jewish beliefs and the present situation in Israel-Gaza.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Because God knew that people can be swayed in the wrong direction.

In my opinion, the wrong direction is to believe that the Bible's depictions of the afterlife are true when, in fact, I have no reason to believe them.

 

[jimb]

In my opinion, the wrong direction is to believe that the Bible's depictions of the afterlife are true when, in fact, I have no reason to believe them.

Why don't you believe them? If you don't understand something, that doesn't make it false.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why don't you believe them? If you don't understand something, that doesn't make it false.

I did not see @Sgt. Pepper say that she did not understand the depictions of the afterlife in the Bible.
She understands then all too well since she was a Christian for 30 years.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I did not see @Sgt. Pepper say that she did not understand the depictions of the afterlife in the Bible.
She understands then all too well since she was a Christian for 30 years.

Yes, I understand the Bible's depictions of the afterlife just fine, so that is not the issue. The truth is that I believe that these depictions are inaccurate and misleading. My opinion is based on 45 years of personal encounters and interactions with earthbound human spirits, which have undoubtedly proven to me that the depictions in the Bible are dead wrong. Speaking of personal encounters with spirits, I had a heartwarming experience with one earlier this evening at the doctor's office. Like so many other times, it was unexpected, but the interaction brought healing and closure to both the spirit and their living loved one. It's times like this that make me truly grateful for my mediumship. It also reminded me of the responsibility that goes along with it.

 

[YoursTrue]

In my opinion, the wrong direction is to believe that the Bible's depictions of the afterlife are true when, in fact, I have no reason to believe them.

There are some things, like parables or illustrations, that do not depict the actual state of being, but rather depict a situation.

 

[walt]

the Bible are dead wrong.

I respect that other people have learned to believe in different ways, but I would not come out and say that the holy scriptures they love and put Faith in is dead wrong. I don't care how much I may disagree with a person's beliefs, My friend Trailblazer believes in different holy scriptures but I would never come out and say something so negative about the Holy scriptures she loves and puts faith in.

it's too bad so many of us disagree with so many things, I wish we could come together, agree on more and help each other.

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I understand the Bible's depictions of the afterlife just fine, so that is not the issue. The truth is that I believe that these depictions are inaccurate and misleading. My opinion is based on 45 years of personal encounters and interactions with earthbound human spirits, which have undoubtedly proven to me that the depictions in the Bible are dead wrong. Speaking of personal encounters with spirits, I had a heartwarming experience with one earlier this evening at the doctor's office. Like so many other times, it was unexpected, but the interaction brought healing and closure to both the spirit and their living loved one. It's times like this that make me truly grateful for my mediumship. It also reminded me of the responsibility that goes along with it.

I believe spirit persons can follow a person and attach themselves to a willing subject if they are susceptible. They're there anyway.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Why would a loving God prohibit people from attempting to speak with their dead loved ones, if they could? Wouldn’t that provide healing and closure for the living?

It’s not for nothing, that inquiring of the dead is lumped together with witchcraft & sorcery @ Deuteronomy 18:10-14, NLT…..
“For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, 11or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead. 12Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD. It is because the other nations have done these detestable things that the LORD your God will drive them out ahead of you. 13But you must be blameless before the LORD your God. 14The nations you are about to displace consult sorcerers and fortune-tellers, but the LORD your God forbids you to do such things.”

The Bible records an event where people used magic in direct opposition to God, @ Exodus 7:10-13…
“So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the Lordcommanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake.11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron’s staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh’s heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the Lord had said.”

Where did this power to oppose God’s purpose, come from?
Might it be from the very same Source that got A&E to rebel, which has ultimately led to our human suffering?
Notice that, along with sorcery, Deuteronomy also mentions ‘burning / sacrificing children in the fire.’ (Archaeology has confirmed this occurred.) What kind of evil forces were ancient tribal humans facing, what kind of threats scared them so much, to get parents to sacrifice their own children in such a gruesome way?!!!

The same forces that have misled humans for millennia, through false religious practices & teachings, sorcery, witchcraft, & consulting the dead.

I guess the reality of all this will be revealed during the future Resurrection….

For an example, Mary Todd Lincoln held séances in the White House in efforts to contact Willie, their son. And after Abraham Lincoln died, she held séances elsewhere, trying to contact him. (She claims she did.)

I can see it now… When they’re all resurrected, Mary will talk to both Willie & Abraham, and she’ll say, “I spoke with you two after you both had died.” And each will reply, “I never talked to you after I died!”…(In fact, I believe since they are ‘sleeping in death,’ (c.f. 1 Corinthians 15:6) when they are resurrected, it’ll seem to them like only a few seconds have passed.)

Imagine this scenario repeated millions of times, since this deception has been ongoing for centuries.

Dante Alighieri claimed he saw “burning souls in agony”. Won’t he be surprised?
He was completely deceived / misled. Revelation 12:9.

We’ll just have to wait and see.

 

[walt]

Some people love and respect scriptures in the Bible to the highest degree, to direct their thinking, actions and beliefs. I do.

Other people do not feel this way at all, they may have totally different beliefs, isn't that okay? and we all can extend kindness to each other so we all can become even better people.

 

[jimb]

Yes, I understand the Bible's depictions of the afterlife just fine, so that is not the issue. The truth is that I believe that these depictions are inaccurate and misleading. My opinion is based on 45 years of personal encounters and interactions with earthbound human spirits, which have undoubtedly proven to me that the depictions in the Bible are dead wrong. Speaking of personal encounters with spirits, I had a heartwarming experience with one earlier this evening at the doctor's office. Like so many other times, it was unexpected, but the interaction brought healing and closure to both the spirit and their living loved one. It's times like this that make me truly grateful for my mediumship. It also reminded me of the responsibility that goes along with it.

I don't think much of your mediumship if you think that the depictions Biblical depictions are "dead" wrong. They have stood the test of time -- thousands of years -- unlike yours, which are "a brief moment" by one person.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Some people in this thread appear to be under the impression that I care about what they think of my mediumship. It appears they are either unaware of what I've already said on this subject, have forgotten it, or are deliberately ignoring it. Therefore, I thought it necessary to reiterate my previous statements about this dilemma in order to make it abundantly clear that it makes no difference to me what others think of my mediumship, my years of experience as a medium and seasoned paranormal investigator, or my beliefs as a spiritualist, Wiccan, and Druid. I will further explain why it makes no difference to me.

First, I am not responsible, either directly or indirectly, to convince others that my mediumship and my lifelong experiences with it are real. It is also not my responsibility to convince others that the paranormal is real (e.g., ghosts, hauntings, crytids, and UFOs). Second, I mean no offense when I say this, but it doesn't matter to me if some people choose not to believe that my personal experiences as a medium are real or that the paranormal in general is real.

It doesn't matter to me, because their skepticism doesn't negate my lifelong experiences with encountering spirits. The fact is, other genuine mediums, people I've given readings to, and other paranormal investigators who have recorded some of my interactions with spirits have validated my experiences as a medium (for a more detailed explanation, see my previous post here). Therefore, I have no interest in debating the paranormal or convincing others that it is real. I've never once tried to persuade any skeptics that I converse with online or in person to believe in the paranormal, and I don't intend to start now. I just let it happen naturally. Third, no amount of preaching by Christians quoting a few scriptures and stating their religious beliefs about spirits, or the continued efforts to lecture me or others, will ever convince me that the earthbound human spirits with whom I interact and communicate are demons.

I no longer believe in such things (as I explained in my previous post here). Furthermore, I'd like to make it abundantly clear that any Christian (no matter their church affiliation) will never convince me that their church's doctrines and its interpretation of the Bible regarding the afterlife are absolutely correct. I've read the Bible cover to cover and studied it many times, so I am well versed in it. As a result, I believe that its depictions of the afterlife are not only inaccurate and misleading, but that the Bible is also chock full of contradictions, and that the stories about Jesus are either based on hearsay, embellished tales, or copied and adapted from Greek mythology and other ancient pagan religions that predate both the Bible and Christianity. Finally, I've stated in numerous other threads that I don't share my lifelong experiences in an attempt to persuade others to believe in the paranormal. As far as I'm concerned, it's entirely up to those who read my posts to decide whether they believe me or not. So, I've made my peace on this matter, and I'm not going to repeat myself or debate with anyone about what I've written in this post. If others disagree with what I've said in this post, then it's their personal issue, not mine.

 

[River Sea]

Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake.

How come their staff that they threw down became snakes? What was the reasoning for this? Also, were there any poison snakes around?