By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[Subduction Zone]

I appreciate your viewpoint and all your research, I believe differently, but I really appreciate your explanation.

Why would you believe differently?

 

[walt]

Why would you believe differently?

You have some strong reasons why you feel evolution is true, I have some strong reasons why I feel creation by God is true.

 

[metis]

You have some strong reasons why you feel evolution is true, I have some strong reasons why I feel creation by God is true.

They are not contradictory.

 

[walt]

They are not contradictory.

There is over 50 scriptures that explain God Created all things, you have a right to your reasoning and so do I.

I believe in the words that are explained in the Bible, this is my foundation.

 

[metis]

There is over 50 scriptures that explain God Created all things, you have a right to your reasoning and so do I.

Again, they are not contradictory, so if your church teaches that it is, let me recommend you find one that is far more honest.

The much more logical Christian question is not "Did God create all that exists?", which probably all churches do, but "What happened after the initial creation as the world continues to evolve?" Or, as Thomas Aquinas called God, the "Immoveable Mover".

 

[walt]

Again, they are not contradictory, so if your church teaches that it is, let me recommend you find one that is far more honest.

The much more logical Christian question is not "Did God create all that exists?", which probably all churches do, but "What happened after the initial creation as the world continues to evolve?" Or, as Thomas Aquinas called God, the "Immoveable Mover".

I think all different ways of thinking are useful.

But for the Bible is a book of words with many instructions, I am busy enough just trying to keep up with the words in the Bible. I see you say they are not contradictory, the Bible's words themselves instruct me, I am more like a follow directions kind of guy and not a person that tries to figure out other stuff.

 

[metis]

I think all different ways of thinking are useful.

But for the Bible is a book of words with many instructions, I am busy enough just trying to keep up with the words in the Bible. I see you say they are not contradictory, the Bible's words themselves instruct me, I am more like a follow directions kind of guy and not a person that tries to figure out other stuff.

The early Church generally recognized the Creation accounts to most likely be allegorical, which was also the long-held scholarly position within most branches of Judaism.

 

[walt]

The early Church generally recognized the Creation accounts to most likely be allegorical, which was also the long-held scholarly position within most branches of Judaism.

I believe in all scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I believe in 2nd Timothy 3:16-17

I respect your view and reasoning on things.

 

[amatuerscholar]

There is over 50 scriptures that explain God Created all things, you have a right to your reasoning and so do I.

I believe in the words that are explained in the Bible, this is my foundation.

Between those scriptures, there is also a lot of disagreement as to how. Which causes an issue if you believe those accounts are literal, as in, it literally took 6 days for creation. But if one takes those stories more metaphorically, which the evidence suggests that's how they were meant to be understood, those disagreements don't matter. One can still take the idea that all is created by God, but that doesn't mean evolution also isn't true. Evolution could simply be the means in which some things were created. Just like we observe new islands being formed through geological processes. In other words, one can see God creating through natural means.

I believe in all scripture from Genesis to Revelation. I believe in 2nd Timothy 3:16-17

I respect your view and reasoning on things.

II Timothy 3:16-17 does not state that all of the Bible is true. It states scripture is true, and specifically, he's addressing the Old Testament, which was what was considered scripture. He wasn't talking about the letter he was writing, or anything in the New Testament, as none of that was scripture.

If you want a more open-ended interpretation of what scripture is, you then run into the problem of having to define what exactly is scripture. Because there is scripture outside of the Bible as well.

 

[amatuerscholar]

Its easy to see the reality of who is Christian and who is mislead.
A True Christian= one who follows Jesus' example as best as they can, and his real teachers that have him leading them teach what he taught-Correct?= yes.
Lets see who is who.

Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his(Father= Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)-- The mislead teachers who do not listen to Jesus teach to seek Jesus' righteousness first.

John 17:1-6,26)= Jesus is clear-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and one must know him as that and know Jesus to get eternal life.-verse 6=Jehovah,, verse 26= Jehovah.

John 4:22-24--Jesus says--YOU do not know what you worship-the TRUE followers will worship the FATHER in spirit and truth))))-- i dont see a trinity mentioned.

John 14:6- I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me. = One must go through Jesus to get to the Father, not stop at Jesus as trinity religions teach.

All can see clearly now who are Christians and who are mislead.
When ones teachers do not match Jesus= RUN FROM THEM.

Would you claim to be a "true" Christian then? Because if you are, you're not following Jesus's example here, or his teachers. After all, you're being incredibly judgmental. Jesus tells us not to bother with the speck in our neighbors eye when you have a plank in yours. Paul tells us clear, judgement is Gods. Yet, you're judging people here.

As for the Trinity, while the term trinity is never mentioned in the Bible, the idea has it's foundation there. Judaism has a binitarian view, as seen in the personification of Wisdom, which isn't a different god, but is a facet of God. We also have the Spirit of God, which isn't separate from God, but is also different from God. As in, it's a facet of God.

If we look at John, Jesus is described as the Logos. In order to understand this we have to look at what the Logos meant in Judaism. We can do that by looking at Philo of Alexandria. And what we see is the logos really being personified Wisdom. Wisdom, as in a facet of God. So while the word trinity is not mentioned, a trinitarian view is clearly there if one understands the context.

Also, trinity religions, or Christianity, doesn't teach that one stops at Jesus. That simply is being deceptive, and it's bearing false witness, which Jesus also had something to say about.

 

[walt]

well

Sure people disagree on most everything. Sure we could debate on words all day. I go with the words In the Holy Bible.

You have decided your way, so have I.

 

[amatuerscholar]

Sure people disagree on most everything. Sure we could debate on words all day. I go with the words In the Holy Bible.

You have decided your way, so have I.

I would like to point out that we are in a debating forum. The intention really is to debate. And those debates can be productive, if you're willing to have a conversation. If you're goal is to just tell others how you believe for whatever reason, there is nothing to be taken from the conversation.

And you may say you go with the words in the Holy Bible, but we have to recognize that what you're really doing is going with your own interpretation of what those words are. You're not simply reading the Bible and going by it. You're making up your mind on what you believe those words mean.

There should be no reason to debate what the term scripture in II Timothy means though. You can incorrectly claim it means all of the Bible, but then you're not really taking the Bible seriously as you're putting your view above the actual view. Scripture here, as based on the context and what the word scripture meant at that time, referred to the Hebrew Scripture.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You have some strong reasons why you feel evolution is true, I have some strong reasons why I feel creation by God is true.

No, I have strong evidence. Evidence tops feelings. In a murder trial an observer may feel that someone is innocent or guilty. Luckily for society the jury has to decide based upon evidence.

 

[walt]

I would like to point out that we are in a debating forum. The intention really is to debate. And those debates can be productive, if you're willing to have a conversation. If you're goal is to just tell others how you believe for whatever reason, there is nothing to be taken from the conversation.

And you may say you go with the words in the Holy Bible, but we have to recognize that what you're really doing is going with your own interpretation of what those words are. You're not simply reading the Bible and going by it. You're making up your mind on what you believe those words mean.

There should be no reason to debate what the term scripture in II Timothy means though. You can incorrectly claim it means all of the Bible, but then you're not really taking the Bible seriously as you're putting your view above the actual view. Scripture here, as based on the context and what the word scripture meant at that time, referred to the Hebrew Scripture.

Some scriptures are not interpreted in a lot of different ways, people say they are but when you when you read each word, the words themselves reveal the meaning of the scripture, or another verse sheds light on the subject.

For example:
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalm 146:4 English Standard Version

 

[amatuerscholar]

Some scriptures are not interpreted in a lot of different ways, people say they are but when you when you read each word the, the words themselves reveal the meaning of the scripture, or another verse sheds light on the subject.

For example:
Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. John 17:3

When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish. Psalm 146:4 English Standard Version

Some scriptures may not be interpreted in different ways, but I was pointing to you in fact interpreting a verse in a different manner than how it was meant.

We also have the problem of people using verses to shed light on verses that they don't really shed light on to. Instead, the connection is forced, and all of the verses are then misinterpreted. And after all, you're specifically choosing what verses you want to shed light on another verse, and in that, are forcing an interpretation.

We also have the problem here, in the example you gave, or ripping verses out of context, which is another interpretative choice.

 

[walt]

Some scriptures may not be interpreted in different ways, but I was pointing to you in fact interpreting a verse in a different manner than how it was meant.

We also have the problem of people using verses to shed light on verses that they don't really shed light on to. Instead, the connection is forced, and all of the verses are then misinterpreted. And after all, you're specifically choosing what verses you want to shed light on another verse, and in that, are forcing an interpretation.

We also have the problem here, in the example you gave, or ripping verses out of context, which is another interpretative choice.

The Bible starts talking about all kinds of subjects all of a sudden, explain specifically what words reveal, how these scriptures are out of context, please.

I didn't even mention their meaning. How do you get all that from three scriptures just in front of you?

 

[walt]

No, I have strong evidence. Evidence tops feelings. In a murder trial an observer may feel that someone is innocent or guilty. Luckily for society the jury has to decide based upon evidence.

I have already given really good evidence In my past conversations, you have found all my evidence not worthy.

That's okay for me, I respect your views, I respect your evidence, I respect your way of thinking, I respect your determination about something you feel is true, If I could think of some kind words to say, consider them said, I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and reasoning.

If there is some way I can help you personally with anything, just let know..

 

[Balthazzar]

Personally I feel a Christian is someone that listens to the words of Christ Jesus and follows his words to guide his life.

Things like the water cycle and photosynthesis It's something I enjoy learning about, It helps me personally.

Personally, I think a Christian is someone who is indwelled by the holy spirit, having an honest spirit and one who's duty is that of truth and adhering to it, even if and particularly when this equates to repenting when in error.

 

[Balthazzar]

Its easy to see the reality of who is Christian and who is mislead.
A True Christian= one who follows Jesus' example as best as they can, and his real teachers that have him leading them teach what he taught-Correct?= yes.
Lets see who is who.

Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his(Father= Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)-- The mislead teachers who do not listen to Jesus teach to seek Jesus' righteousness first.

John 17:1-6,26)= Jesus is clear-The one who sent him= Father is THE ONLY TRUE GOD and one must know him as that and know Jesus to get eternal life.-verse 6=Jehovah,, verse 26= Jehovah.

John 4:22-24--Jesus says--YOU do not know what you worship-the TRUE followers will worship the FATHER in spirit and truth))))-- i dont see a trinity mentioned.

John 14:6- I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me. = One must go through Jesus to get to the Father, not stop at Jesus as trinity religions teach.

All can see clearly now who are Christians and who are mislead.
When ones teachers do not match Jesus= RUN FROM THEM.

The text books teach that the holy spirit is a guiding spirit of truth, that we are children of God (the all), and that the trinity would represent this dynamic in life to be "God head", suggesting that to live and adhere to truth and with an honest and truthful spirit, is what it means to be like Christ or anointed.

If not meaning this, then what?

 

[walt]

Personally, I think a Christian is someone who is indwelled by the holy spirit, having an honest spirit and one who's duty is that of truth and adhering to it, even if and particularly when this equates to repenting when in error.

Yes I believe the Holy Spirit can help everyone, for me, what's important is to read the words of Christ Jesus then apply them in my life and along the way I put a little more of what Jesus says into practice.