By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[YoursTrue]

I have never interacted with any deity during my lifetime, despite my countless attempts to connect and interact with the Abrahamic God during the forty years I genuinely believed in him. I was a devout Christian for thirty years and had believed in him for ten years before becoming a Christian at the age of seventeen, but I have never seen, interacted with, or felt his presence. I knew other Christians who claimed they felt his presence in their lives, but I never felt it, and it wasn't for a lack of trying either. Believing in him by faith never worked out for me, nor did all the years of dedicated and earnest prayer to him. The "fake it 'til you make it" never worked out for me either. I learned the hard way as a devout Christian that there is no such thing as a personal relationship with God or Jesus. I felt nothing but persistent despair and hopelessness during the long four decades that I genuinely believed in them.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that it was a living nightmare for me. I deconverted when I was forty-seven. As a result of this experience, I no longer accept the existence of deities based on faith. Having said that, I'm not willing to dismiss the existence of any deities because I believe in supernatural phenomena, and I acknowledge that their existence could be a possibility in this regard. However, I can honestly say that I believe that spirits exist, but I don't just claim to believe without providing what I consider to be sufficient evidence to substantiate my personal beliefs in supernatural phenomena.

Interaction is not quite like what's considered interaction on these boards or in a conversation among humans. But you do interact with spirits who claim they interact with the dead? Maybe I have it wrong about you -- maybe I don't remember correctly. You don't have to clarify if you don't want to, but as I said, these boards have proved very, very interesting and informative for me.

 

[YoursTrue]

P.S. @Sgt. Pepper I am sure there are some here who will understand -- but the Bible speaks of a woman who is a whore -- that is in Revelation -- and it is referring in part to false religion. I'm sorry you got hurt and dismayed through your experiences about God. While I have questions and wonderment, I have found God and I am very happy about that. I did not always believe in God and did what the Bible says God says not to do. (Just a brief introduction...) But as the song "Amazing Grace" goes -- (one of my all time favorites) - I once was blind but now I see! I will thank the God I pray to for that --

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

It was not because God abandoned you, it was because you had a false expectations owing to the false teachings of Christianity.

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response, my friend. I truly appreciate it.

I further explained what I experienced and went through in the following post.

Do you believe the Bible is God's word?

Well that’s like discussing the best team in the NFL with someone who doesn’t watch football. As long as you mean imaginary teams, maybe playing Martian stickball, yes.

www.religiousforums.com

 

[Trailblazer]

Your messenger imo has deluded himself and you. Sad but I think it's true.

What you think is true does not matter. All that matters is what is actually true.

 

[Trailblazer]

Interaction is not quite like what's considered interaction on these boards or in a conversation among humans. But you do interact with spirits who claim they interact with the dead? Maybe I have it wrong about you -- maybe I don't remember correctly. You don't have to clarify if you don't want to, but as I said, these boards have proved very, very interesting and informative for me.

If a person is a psychic medium it is possible for them to interact with spirits who reside in the spirit world, but it is impossible for anyone to interact with God.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

If a person is a psychic medium it is possible for them to interact with spirits who reside in the spirit world,

Yes, I believe this is true, as I have stated many times on this forum and shared many of my own personal experiences as one.

For example:

Post 1: What is Evidence?

Post 2: What's after death?

Post 3: Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?

but it is impossible for anyone to interact with God.

After not experiencing a genuine relationship with God, I began to suspect that other Christians were also faking it. I suspected that I was not the only Christian who was faking it until I made it, and that others, too, were only playing church until they experienced something they could honestly say was a true interaction with God. And, to validate my suspicion, my husband, a lifelong Christian, admitted that his emotions were manipulated during church services, but he misconstrued it as God's presence. He told me that church services are designed to generate strong emotions from the congregation and that this is accomplished through uplifting praise music, preaching, and prayer. Now I understand how my emotions were manipulated while in church.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

My point is that the Hebrew of the original, rûaḥ, according to a crib I consulted, can mean ─

wind, breath, mind, spirit
─ breath
─ ─ wind
─ ─ ─ of heaven
─ ─ ─ quarter (of wind), side
─ ─ ─ breath of air
─ ─ ─ air, gas
─ ─ ─ vain, empty thing
─ ─ spirit (as that which breathes quickly in animation or agitation)
─ ─ ─ spirit, animation, vivacity, vigour
─ ─ ─ courage
─ ─ ─ temper, anger
─ ─ ─ impatience, patience
─ ─ ─ spirit, disposition (as troubled, bitter, discontented)
─ ─ ─ disposition (of various kinds), unaccountable or uncontrollable impulse
─ ─ ─ prophetic spirit
─ ─ spirit (of the living, breathing being in man and animals)
─ ─ ─ as gift, preserved by God, God's spirit, departing at death, disembodied being
─ ─ spirit (as seat of emotion)
─ ─ ─ desire
─ ─ ─ sorrow, trouble
─ ─ spirit
─ ─ ─ as seat or organ of mental acts
─ ─ ─ rarely of the will
─ ─ ─ as seat especially of moral character
─ ─ Spirit of God, the third person of the triune God, the Holy Spirit, coequal, coeternal with the Father and the Son
─ ─ ─ as inspiring ecstatic state of prophecy
─ ─ ─ as impelling prophet to utter instruction or warning
─ ─ ─ imparting warlike energy and executive and administrative power
─ ─ ─ as endowing men with various gifts
─ ─ ─ as energy of life
─ ─ ─ as manifest in the Shekinah glory
─ ─ ─ (never referred to as a depersonalised force)

It's not difficult to understand that the ancients had a concept of an immaterial motive (animating) force underlying motion and emotion. It's simple subtraction: live person minus nonliving person = soul/spirit. It enters a body before the first breath (first inSPIRation) and leaves when we exSPIRE (die). The same thinking and language can be applied to the beasts, but usually not in these religions, where man is considered special and who alone possesses a soul or spirit.

By extension, god, angels and demons are disembodied spirits, and matters pertaining to such presumed entities are called spiritual.

The Hellenic Muses were also spirits that inspired poets, dancers, etc., moving them with creative urges I don't know if these two traditions were independent or if one "inspired" the other.

It is various aspects of our orbit around the Sun that changes. The average distance really cannot change.

Agreed. Time to drag out some old celestial mechanics that I looked at previously, since I have nothing to add to the theology being discussed apart from the above, which isn't actually theology either.

Two things in earth's orbit cycle over time.

One is the eccentricity of earth's orbit around the sun, which refers to how far from a circle its orbital path is. You probably recall that an ellipse has two foci. The line connecting them is the major axis of the ellipse. The eccentricity of earth's orbit, which is small making the elliptical orbit relatively circular such that the distance of the earth to the sun varies due to the gravitational effect of the other planets. The eccentricity of its orbit, which varies from a minimum of .0034 to a maximum of 0.0580 (mean eccentricity is 0.0280) and back again over a period of 413,000 years.

The mean distance of the earth from the sun during one orbit is about 93 million miles (150 million kilometers), but this varies between a minimum of 91. 4 million miles (147.1 million km) at perihelion, which it encounters every January 4th, to a maximum of 94.5 million (152.1 million km) at aphelion around July 4th. Currently the difference between closest approach to the Sun (perihelion) and furthest distance (aphelion) is only 3.4% (3.0 million km = 5.1 million km), which translates to about a 6.8% change in incoming solar radiation (insolation), but as you know, this is not the cause of the seasons. Earth's axial tilt is.

The other is the direction in space the major axis points (the way that the north pole points toward Polaris now), which precesses, a motion called anomalistic precession, primarily as a result of interactions with Jupiter and Saturn. It takes about 112,000 years for the ellipse to revolve once relative to the fixed stars.

There's a little more on earth's orbit. The plane of the earth's orbit around the sun is tilted from the mean plane (also called the invariable plane) by an amount that also varies. The angle of inclination of Earth's orbit drifts up and down relative to its present orbit. Earth’s orbit is presently tilted about 1 degree from the invariable plane. The inclination of the Earth's orbit has a 100,000-year cycle relative to the invariable plane.

None of these cause ice ages, nor change earth's mean distance from the sun as you indicated.

For completeness' sake, I'll add the numbers on earth's axial obliquity and its precession (the precession of the equinoxes). The axial tilt, which DOES cause the seasons, is presently 23.44 degrees, also cycles between minima and maxima over 41,000-year cycles. It is presently about halfway between the extremes, moving toward the more upright direction. It will reach its minimum value around the year 10,000 AD.

And, that axis changes its direction sweeping out a circle over about 25, 800 years. It's northern projection presently points toward Polaris.

I suspected that I was not the only Christian who was faking it

I'm sure you're aware of speaking in tongues and miracle healings:

I read the Bible at face value.
What is conveyed as history I read as history.
What is conveyed as parable I take as parable.
What is conveyed as poetry I regard as poetry.
I take prophecy as prophecy, wise sayings as wise sayings, etc.

Good to read. So do I.

I just explained to somebody that a biblical myth is a myth - not a metaphor or allegory - and that these are distinct and different literary forms. By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian... (comment to amateurscholar mid-post). Myths are wrong guesses by prescientific cultures trying to explain how the world came to be and why it appears as it does,

Sorry that you didn't see fit to comment on the song I posted for you. I take that at face value as well.

Did you not see it, or did you just think it didn't deserve a reply despite being a friendly and constructive post that attempted to reach out to you and establish common ground?

Assuming that you just blew me off, the nonresponse was off-putting. I feel less inclined to do that again with another believer that I don't already know well and who I have found something human and redeeming about them. Being friendly to random Abrahamists generally leaves me feeling empty and regretting it.

random changes are not going to bring about evolution.

When combined with natural selection, they do. It's not necessary for you to believe or even understand that. As @Trailblazer noted, "What you think is true does not matter. All that matters is what is actually true." If you are interested in such things, you'll need to forsake faith for critical thought and empiricism - the only known path to knowledge about how the world works and affects us.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Two things in earth's orbit cycle over time.

There is another, and perhaps a fourth. I do not fully remember my Milankovitch cycles. . . . Oh crap! There are five of them now. But Milankovitch started with only three. He had eccentricity, or how circular or elliptical our orbit is. Axial tilt, how much the Earth tilts towards or away from the Sun. And precession, or at which time of the year is the Earth closest to the Sun.

Milankovitch cycles - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As to causing or not causing ice ages you appear to be right. What these affect is glaciations during ice ages. We are still technically in an ice age. When there are large ice sheets on the Earth that is technically an ice age. We may have ended that with AGW. That is not likely to be a good thing. What causes ice ages is still uncertain as far as I know.

 

[YoursTrue]

What you think is true does not matter. All that matters is what is actually true.

What I believe is true is that you and your messenger are deluded. Along with those you and some others may think you can speak with the "dead." Obviously you don't think, believe, or think you know the same way. and -- have a good one!

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, I believe this is true, as I have stated many times on this forum and shared many of my own personal experiences as one.

For example:

Post 1: What is Evidence?

Post 2: What's after death?

Post 3: Demons, is there any evidence they even exist?



After not experiencing a genuine relationship with God, I began to suspect that other Christians were also faking it. I suspected that I was not the only Christian who was faking it until I made it, and that others, too, were only playing church until they experienced something they could honestly say was a true interaction with God. And, to validate my suspicion, my husband, a lifelong Christian, admitted that his emotions were manipulated during church services, but he misconstrued it as God's presence. He told me that church services are designed to generate strong emotions from the congregation and that this is accomplished through uplifting praise music, preaching, and prayer. Now I understand how my emotions were manipulated while in church.

amazing you have not experienced a relationship with God (I believe you have not, btw) but you do believe these dead persons can relate whatever to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

What I believe is true is that you and your messenger are deluded.

What I believe is true is that most Christians, especially the JWs, are deluded.

 

[Subduction Zone]

amazing you have not experienced a relationship with God (I believe you have not, btw) but you do believe these dead persons can relate whatever to you.

Why would a God have to be a personal God? A personal God is only your version of one and all that you have for support is a book that is factually wrong quite often. Neither one appears to be superior to the other.

 

[YoursTrue]

Thank you for your kind and thoughtful response, my friend. I truly appreciate it.

I further explained what I experienced and went through in the following post.

Do you believe the Bible is God's word?

Well that’s like discussing the best team in the NFL with someone who doesn’t watch football. As long as you mean imaginary teams, maybe playing Martian stickball, yes.

www.religiousforums.com

perhaps you will become a Bahai. Why not? After all, TB believes what her messenger said. anyway, goodbye. Maybe in that religion the dead can talk to people like TB. Just to help though, if I thought that any and all groups or sects of Christendom were led by God, I'd feel feel to join any of them. But you may have guessed it == I do not. Just to clarify. Like I said, I went to church, never found anything that helped me. But yes, I enjoyed the music very much. And got paid as a musician there. When I began studying with Jehovah's Witnesses I realize I was home with them. I never went back to the church I sang at, never would attend a worship service at any other church. Just to aay so I clarify. Also I commiserate with your experience of not finding God in church. Neither did I...

 

[YoursTrue]

What I believe is true is that most Christians, especially the JWs, are deluded.

I look forward to the FINAL DECISION BY GOD. Not yours. Take care. **mod edit**

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

What I believe is true is that most Christians, especially the JWs, are deluded.

As a former Christian evangelist and street preacher, I understand what you mean. I think that they are misled by their doctrinal beliefs and interpretations of the Bible, which has resulted in the vast schism among them. I find the Bible gravely inaccurate and misleading, especially in regards to the afterlife.

 

[walt]

Many people in the Bible talk to God in prayer, the Bible encourages people to talk to him in prayer, the bible strongly discourages people to talk with the Dead. Such actions are forbidden and against God's will.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Why would a God have to be a personal God? A personal God is only your version of one and all that you have for support is a book that is factually wrong quite often. Neither one appears to be superior to the other.

I diligently sought God for forty years through daily prayer, worship, Bible studies, evangelism, and various ministries, only to end up disillusioned and heartbroken. I never felt inner peace until after I renounced my belief in God and disavowed my Christian faith. It took some time for me to finally feel it. Prior to this, I had never experienced personal tranquility or freedom from emotional bondage, despite years of sincere prayer, daily reading and studying the Bible, genuine dedication to serving God in church ministries, as well as being a devoted street preacher and evangelism team leader. I merely went through the motions and played church in the dire hope that I would start to feel something—anything that indicated to me that God is real and that he cares about me. I was desperate to know the truth. I appeared to be a joyous Christian, but I was deeply bereft of hope and inner peace. I was constantly hurting and suffering emotionally, and no one else knew about my misery and struggle other than my husband. I'm not exaggerating when I say that being a Christian was an absolute nightmare for me. I'm truly relieved to be free of Christianity, and I have no desire whatsoever to ever return to it. I'm free now.

As I found out, it takes a lot of courage.

I know many other former Christians who had the same or similar experience to mine. I'd like to conclude by saying that I'm not only relieved to be free from Christianity, but I'm also very proud that I've been able to support other people break free from the bondage of their Christian indoctrination.

 

[Trailblazer]

I look forward to the FINAL DECISION BY GOD.

You already missed the boat on that one, at least for this age in history.

 

[Trailblazer]

Many people in the Bible talk to God in prayer, the Bible encourages people to talk to him in prayer,

That's true and there is nothing wrong with talking to God in prayer, it's when people think God is talking back to them that it becomes problematic.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's true and there is nothing wrong with talking to God in prayer, it's when people think God is talking back to them that it becomes problematic.

The post you responded to mentioned the Bible forbidding people speaking to the dead, which reminded me of what I posted earlier in this thread.

I'd like to re-post what I wrote because I think the content of this post has become relevant again.

If the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), then why is it forbidden in the Bible to consult the dead (Deuteronomy 18:10–12)?

According to the Bible, Jesus mentioned the appearance of a ghost because his disciples thought he was a ghost (Luke 24:37–39). Why would he have mentioned the appearance of a human ghost when the dead are forgotten (Ecclesiastes 9:5) or if he and his disciples didn't believe that they existed and were actually demons in disguise? And in an account of his alleged resurrection, Matthew 27:51–53 states, "At that moment, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split, and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection, went into the holy city, and appeared to many people." This sounds paranormal to me.

Furthermore, 1 Samuel 28:7–20 mentions the ghost of Samuel communicating with King Saul and warning him that God would deliver both him and Israel into the hands of the Philistines because of his disobedience. There is no mention in these verses that the spirit he spoke to was anything else but the spirit of Samuel. However, according to Ecclesiastes 9:5, the dead know nothing. Wouldn't it have been more of an accurate account of this alleged interaction if it were specified that the spirit King Saul spoke to was a demon in disguise? Well, I can read these verses and see that there is no mention that the spirit he spoke to was a demon. What an ironic story it is to find in the Bible about King Saul using a psychic medium to communicate directly with the spirit of the prophet Samuel, especially given its claim that the dead know nothing and their names are forgotten. Again, why is it forbidden to consult the dead?

If the dead know nothing, then how would they know if they are either in heaven or hell? For example, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19–31), the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades ("because I am in agony in this fire"). It is a parable of a dead rich man who was obviously conscious that he was being tormented in Hades, was able to recognize Lazarus and Abraham from afar, and also pleaded with Abraham to help him.

Furthermore, Ecclesiastes 9:5 states that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten. However, it conflicts with other scriptures that suggest there are final rewards given in heaven (such as these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). It seems like a conflicting message.

After extensive reading, study, and examination of the Bible, I've found that Ecclesiastes 3:21 specifies that human spirits and the spirit of the animal rise upward from the earth. Revelation 20:13 states that spirits rise up from the sea and Hades. Also, Hebrews 9:27 states that people are destined to die once and, after that, face judgment, and 2 Corinthians 5:8 suggests that believers are in the presence of Jesus after death. According to 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17 and Revelation 20:11–15, both believers and unbelievers' spirits are sleeping in their graves and awaiting God's judgment in the end times. Furthermore, there are other scriptures that describe "soul sleep" (Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, John 11:11–15) as well. Given these conflicting verses, it's not surprising to me that Christians disagree about what happens to people after death.