By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...

[YoursTrue]

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, YoursTrue. It makes absolutely no difference to me.

That's fine. But nothing you have said moves me to believe that you have solid basis for some of your comments and beliefs and so you can say whatever you like. Hey have a nice day. While there's life, there's hope.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That's fine. But nothing you have said moves me to believe that you have solid basis for some of your comments and beliefs and so you can say whatever you like. Hey have a nice day. While there's life, there's hope.

FYI, I'm not interested in convincing you otherwise. To be honest, I don't care what you believe, as long as you don't try to impose your beliefs on me.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Then you have a lot of people who don't believe in God. Or who believe there is hellfire waiting for the "unsaved..."

Yes there are those who say they don’t believe in God.
The Bible says this:
”And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20‬:‭13‬-‭15‬ ‭ESV‬‬
”And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”“
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14‬:‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭ESV‬‬
Jesús Christ talked quite a bit about hell so yes I believe it’s a literal place prepared for the devil and the angels that rebelled as well as unsaved people who reject Jesus Christ.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One murder is bad enough.

True but you said "rampant" that implies that things are worse, meanwhile we have had a huge drop in the murder rate in the last year. The pandemic screwed all sorts of things up. And on the long term crime is lower than it was in the past.

Here is the problem, we have instant news these days. New reports bad events mostly so it often seems like things are worse when there is one more reporting of bad things. That are not more bad things happening.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Meantime there's nothing you can do to avoid the natural course of things.

What is that supposed to mean and how is it supposed to help you?

 

[ElishaElijah]

True but you said "rampant" that implies that things are worse, meanwhile we have had a huge drop in the murder rate in the last year. The pandemic screwed all sorts of things up. And on the long term crime is lower than it was in the past.

Here is the problem, we have instant news these days. New reports bad events mostly so it often seems like things are worse when there is one more reporting of bad things. That are not more bad things happening.

This is an area of concern…

Human trafficking victims globally 2022 | Statista

Human trafficking is a crime affecting tens of thousands of people worldwide each year.

www.statista.com

 

[Subduction Zone]

This is an area of concern…

Human trafficking victims globally 2022 | Statista

Human trafficking is a crime affecting tens of thousands of people worldwide each year.

www.statista.com

Yes, there will always be new problems, but it is the total number of crimes one needs to be looking at.

You used an argument that is refuted by a mere "So what?"

 

[ElishaElijah]

Yes, there will always be new problems, but it is the total number of crimes one needs to be looking at.

You used an argument that is refuted by a mere "So what?"

Rampant crime… some areas yes and some things that were considered crime in the past aren’t prosecuted today.
We used to go unsupervised as kids in the past, wouldn’t think of that today.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Rampant crime… some areas yes and some things that were considered crime in the past aren’t prosecuted today.
We used to go unsupervised as kids in the past, wouldn’t think of that today.

Once again, "rampant crime" is not a problem if the total number of crimes has gone down.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Once again, "rampant crime" is not a problem if the total number of crimes has gone down.

Well, whether crime goes up or down I would say it’s always been rampant at least since the 1990’s and. the streets are not “safer”.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Well, whether crime goes up or down I would say it’s always been rampant at least since the 1990’s and. the streets are not “safer”.

Properly crimes since the 1990's are down quite a bit. Unfortunately homicide is up. It peaked apparently due to the pandemic and it is dropping again.

Crime in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Polymath257]

Well that’s what I’m finding with how “science” works. You have believers like creation research and you have another group of scientists who try figure out and reproduce events from thousands of years ago. We have a hard time proving things from 500 years ago or even last week, was that photo shopped or real? Consider this:

Geology and the Flood

In the early days of geology, especially during the 17th and 18th centuries, the dominant explanation for the sedimentary rocks and their fossilized contents was that they had been laid down in the great Flood of the days of Noah. This was the view of Steno, the "father of stratigraphy", whose...

www.icr.org

Wow. That site is full of misinformation and distortion. It gets the history and the motivations *completely* wrong. For example, the discovery that evolution occurred has NOTHING to do with ancient paganism!

The original investigators were primarily Christian and *expected* to find evidence of a flood. They *expected* to find species to be static. But that is NOT what they found.

At first, they shifted and proposed 'catastrophism', suggesting the biblical flood as only one of a series of global catastrophes. But this also failed to be supported by the actual evidence. Eventually, it was realized both that the Earth is far older than they expected and that species change over time (evolution). This understanding happened decades before Charles Darwin, by the way. Darwin simply proposed a *mechanism* to explain the observed changes.

So, we have a site that misleads and distorts. It also requires a philosophical position *prior* to investigation. And it clearly has no ptrouble lying to make its political and religious points.

Why should we trust it at all?

 

[Polymath257]

There are things that are true but yet to be proved. Meaning they are prophecies. I believe faith is one of the gifts of the spirit from God. Faith is that which is not seen.

And I believe that faith is a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Wow. That site is full of misinformation and distortion. It gets the history and the motivations *completely* wrong. For example, the discovery that evolution occurred has NOTHING to do with ancient paganism!

The original investigators were primarily Christian and *expected* to find evidence of a flood. They *expected* to find species to be static. But that is NOT what they found.

At first, they shifted and proposed 'catastrophism', suggesting the biblical flood as only one of a series of global catastrophes. But this also failed to be supported by the actual evidence. Eventually, it was realized both that the Earth is far older than they expected and that species change over time (evolution). This understanding happened decades before Charles Darwin, by the way. Darwin simply proposed a *mechanism* to explain the observed changes.

So, we have a site that misleads and distorts. It also requires a philosophical position *prior* to investigation. And it clearly has no ptrouble lying to make its political and religious points.

Why should we trust it at all?

I don't think we can expect a lot of misinformation and distortion from a creationist propaganda site like The Institute for Creation Research.

 

[YoursTrue]

And I believe that faith is a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.

Of course some people would think that. If I thought every faith was the truth as I see it, I'd feel free to do or possibly take on whatever. But I don't. I think about the possibility of evolution as if it came from -- um -- (can't say nothing, right? although some do figure like our dear Dr. Hawking that the universe might have come from nothing...) and I say at this point -- oh well.
Listening to some beautiful, beautiful music by Chopin now and cannot figure that any ANIMAL could write music. I do not consider humans as animals, although obviously some do. So -- with all that in mind -- and not saying I believe as others do about creation or evolution or natural selection, etc. -- have a nice day.
P.S. and I do thank you for your consideration in your responses.

 

[YoursTrue]

And I believe that faith is a dereliction of our duty to think for ourselves.

Looking at this again -- I do think for myself. I have thought deeply about the theory of evolution. I have thought deeply about what the Bible says. And again -- I have come to certain conclusions about creation. And evolution. I cannot explain it all. Neither can you or scientists or even those who believe in God. At least that's what I think.

 

[Polymath257]

Most people think they are thinking when they are simply rearranging biases.

 

[Polymath257]

Looking at this again -- I do think for myself. I have thought deeply about the theory of evolution.

No you have not. How do I know? Because you don’t know the basics. Because when I tell you some of the basics, you complain it is too much or too complicated.

That means that you at most thought about evolution at a very shallow level.

I have thought deeply about what the Bible says.

I do not have the expertise to say one way or the other on this.

And again -- I have come to certain conclusions about creation. And evolution. I cannot explain it all. Neither can you or scientists or even those who believe in God. At least that's what I think.

It isn’t necessary to explain it all. But knowledge of the basics is required for an informed opinion.

 

[YoursTrue]

No you have not. How do I know? Because you don’t know the basics. Because when I tell you some of the basics, you complain it is too much or too complicated.

That means that you at most thought about evolution at a very shallow level.

I do not have the expertise to say one way or the other on this.

It isn’t necessary to explain it all. But knowledge of the basics is required for an informed opinion.

There are no basics to explain abiogenesis...yet. to say that tiktaalik proves (yes,I know many don't like the word prove in this type of context, but that's how it's really used) the theory that fish eventually became landdwellers and possibly mammals and humans is not truly substantiated as far as I am concerned. As far as you are concerned, that's obviously your option to believe it.

 

[YoursTrue]

No you have not. How do I know? Because you don’t know the basics. Because when I tell you some of the basics, you complain it is too much or too complicated.

That means that you at most thought about evolution at a very shallow level.

I do not have the expertise to say one way or the other on this.

It isn’t necessary to explain it all. But knowledge of the basics is required for an informed opinion.

It IS too complicated for simple folk like me to understand. I read how thrilled the scientists were who discovered the fish type (was it tiktaalik, I forget) they say was the stepping stone to air breathers.