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Can a human be more compassionate and merciful than God (in your opinion)

What is the most compassionate approach?

  • burn wicked people and unbelievers in hell forever and ever

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • put them out of their misery

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Purify, heal, and transform all people (through many lifetimes if need be)

    Votes: 14 70.0%

  • Total voters
    20

james bond

Well-Known Member
The punishment for whatever supposed transgressions in the Garden of Eden have been paid by every generation of of humans. Assuming the Eden story is true, we're being punished for the actions of who are literally our earliest possible ancestors. It ceased to be punishment the moment their offspring were punished for the crimes of their parents, and instead became torture.

Oh so you're calling us slaves?

At the time, there was only God and A&E and they had it all including free will. The TOK was the only litmus test or else God did have slaves.

BTW, God answered your ignorance is bliss comment. He said ignorance is kind. That sounded like a line in a song, so I looked it up.

"Time can never mend
The careless whispers of a good friend
To the heart and mind
Ignorance is kind
There's no comfort in the truth
Pain is all you'll find."

Does it mean anything to you?
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Oh so you're calling us slaves?

At the time, there was only God and A&E and they had it all including free will. The TOK was the only litmus test or else God did have slaves.

BTW, God answered your ignorance is bliss comment. He said ignorance is kind. That sounded like a line in a song, so I looked it up.

"Time can never mend
The careless whispers of a good friend
To the heart and mind
Ignorance is kind
There's no comfort in the truth
Pain is all you'll find."

Does it mean anything to you?

No, he is not calling us slaves.
He is asking how you feel about the concept of forcing white people nowadays to pay reparations to the slaves' descendants.
Would you support its implementation ?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So, if I was omnipotent (the quality of having unlimited power) I would heal people of mental and physical illnesses. I would fill with joy and euphoria every sad, lonely, depressed, and miserable person. I would heal all infirmities and mental illness. I would give pedophiles and sexual deviants a healthy sexuality so that they don't feel inclined to commit acts that harm themselves or others. I would heal all people of drug, sexual, or other addictions

I would enlighten all people to know the truth. I would speak clear messages to people that seek me so that they could write down word-for-word my instructions (So there would be no confusion). I would elect world leaders who were the most wise and compassionate people on earth, and I would guide their every decision so that they knew what was best for the people.

Would we have a better world if that was done?

I would let no one be tortured for all eternity in hell. I find that people who do evil are often suffering a lot. No one wakes up in the morning and says "I'm feeling so good today, I want to go kill a bunch of people" :confused:. Consequently, I feel compassion for such people already and dread the idea of them suffering forever. Either heal them, transform them, or put them out of their misery.

I'm reading a book by Allan Kardec "The Spirit's book". It's a great read if you haven't read it. He interacts with spirits and they answer all his questions about spirits. They claim that the Spirit existed before it was incarnated and that this body is just one temporary outfit. They tell him that every spirit will be purified and made perfect eventually, but for some it will take many thousands of years and many lifetimes.

I have to agree that this belief is far more just, compassionate, merciful, and rational than the belief that people will be tortured forever and ever because of what they did or believed in this brief life (which is one-second compared to eternity....why punish someone eternally because of what they did with one-second, especially when you consider that they were blind, confused, unenlightened, and naturally inclined to sin).

Please answer the poll if you could. Please be honest about it. I'm asking what is the most compassionate approach. You might firmly believe that eternal torture is what is in store for unbelievers, but do you truly find that to be the most compassionate approach?
o_O

If I told you take this road, it'll lead you to an amazing and a wonderful place and
avoid the other road because it'll lead you to endless suffering.

Now if you chose the wrong road because you don't believe and trust the adviser
while he informed you of some signs which will be shown to you during your journey as
a proof of his warnings (the prophecies) then will you still blame the adviser for what
you have chose if you continued in the same road which will lead you to endless suffering.

That is the cost of the free will, you choose what you want for your end, God said clearly
don't oppress your own selves, the prophet once he knew that his life on earth will come
to an end, he asked people to gather to listen for his final sermon and that was shortly before
his death.(why he needed to do so except that it was a serious matter)

 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member

Please answer the poll if you could. Please be honest about it. I'm asking what is the most compassionate approach. You might firmly believe that eternal torture is what is in store for unbelievers, but do you truly find that to be the most compassionate approach?
o_O

If I were God the world would not be much different. People must be allowed choice and see the consequence of that choice. Influencing there lives so that everything is perfect would make them no better than Pets. I would want them to be my equal. This life would be a proving ground those that wanted more and succeed in life. They would be allowed to advance. Those the did not would be given a choice to try again or be given eternal sleep.
 

Nietzsche

The Last Prussian
Premium Member
Oh so you're calling us slaves?

At the time, there was only God and A&E and they had it all including free will. The TOK was the only litmus test or else God did have slaves.
No, no. Not slaves. That's a completely different argument. My argument is that the punishment beyond those directly responsible is just as absurd as modern day white people paying reparations to modern black people. What God did is basically that. Punishing the children for the actions of their parents.

BTW, God answered your ignorance is bliss comment. He said ignorance is kind. That sounded like a line in a song, so I looked it up.

"Time can never mend
The careless whispers of a good friend
To the heart and mind
Ignorance is kind
There's no comfort in the truth
Pain is all you'll find."

Does it mean anything to you?
Yeah, and it's not positive, rather it's downright revolting. It's a ringing endorsement for cowardice.
 
We have in our traditions that poor people when wanna go to heaven wish to be poor all the time in carnal world because they see their rewards.

So those that fail the test are labeled bad people, while those who pass are still selfish people obsessed with getting their reward, while writing off the people who didn't make the cut (no empathy).

What is the point of torture again? If a dog bites a child it is usually put down, we don't have officially appointed people torture the animal before putting it down for doing something it shouldn't have. That would be cruel and pointless, yes? So why does your god feel the need to torture people?
 
So, if I was omnipotent (the quality of having unlimited power) I would heal people of mental and physical illnesses. I would fill with joy and euphoria every sad, lonely, depressed, and miserable person. I would heal all infirmities and mental illness. I would give pedophiles and sexual deviants a healthy sexuality so that they don't feel inclined to commit acts that harm themselves or others. I would heal all people of drug, sexual, or other addictions

I would enlighten all people to know the truth. I would speak clear messages to people that seek me so that they could write down word-for-word my instructions (So there would be no confusion). I would elect world leaders who were the most wise and compassionate people on earth, and I would guide their every decision so that they knew what was best for the people.

Would we have a better world if that was done?

I would let no one be tortured for all eternity in hell. I find that people who do evil are often suffering a lot. No one wakes up in the morning and says "I'm feeling so good today, I want to go kill a bunch of people" :confused:. Consequently, I feel compassion for such people already and dread the idea of them suffering forever. Either heal them, transform them, or put them out of their misery.

I'm reading a book by Allan Kardec "The Spirit's book". It's a great read if you haven't read it. He interacts with spirits and they answer all his questions about spirits. They claim that the Spirit existed before it was incarnated and that this body is just one temporary outfit. They tell him that every spirit will be purified and made perfect eventually, but for some it will take many thousands of years and many lifetimes.

I have to agree that this belief is far more just, compassionate, merciful, and rational than the belief that people will be tortured forever and ever because of what they did or believed in this brief life (which is one-second compared to eternity....why punish someone eternally because of what they did with one-second, especially when you consider that they were blind, confused, unenlightened, and naturally inclined to sin).

Please answer the poll if you could. Please be honest about it. I'm asking what is the most compassionate approach. You might firmly believe that eternal torture is what is in store for unbelievers, but do you truly find that to be the most compassionate approach?
o_O

I think you overlooked an obvious option. Why not create the world and the people in it without flaws and wickedness to begin with? If you are all-powerful and know what you want, why would you create something to be flawed in ways you don't like to begin with? That's never made sense to me.
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
So, if I was omnipotent (the quality of having unlimited power) I would heal people of mental and physical illnesses. I would fill with joy and euphoria every sad, lonely, depressed, and miserable person. I would heal all infirmities and mental illness. I would give pedophiles and sexual deviants a healthy sexuality so that they don't feel inclined to commit acts that harm themselves or others. I would heal all people of drug, sexual, or other addictions

I would enlighten all people to know the truth. I would speak clear messages to people that seek me so that they could write down word-for-word my instructions (So there would be no confusion). I would elect world leaders who were the most wise and compassionate people on earth, and I would guide their every decision so that they knew what was best for the people.

Would we have a better world if that was done?

I would let no one be tortured for all eternity in hell. I find that people who do evil are often suffering a lot. No one wakes up in the morning and says "I'm feeling so good today, I want to go kill a bunch of people" :confused:. Consequently, I feel compassion for such people already and dread the idea of them suffering forever. Either heal them, transform them, or put them out of their misery.

I'm reading a book by Allan Kardec "The Spirit's book". It's a great read if you haven't read it. He interacts with spirits and they answer all his questions about spirits. They claim that the Spirit existed before it was incarnated and that this body is just one temporary outfit. They tell him that every spirit will be purified and made perfect eventually, but for some it will take many thousands of years and many lifetimes.

I have to agree that this belief is far more just, compassionate, merciful, and rational than the belief that people will be tortured forever and ever because of what they did or believed in this brief life (which is one-second compared to eternity....why punish someone eternally because of what they did with one-second, especially when you consider that they were blind, confused, unenlightened, and naturally inclined to sin).

Please answer the poll if you could. Please be honest about it. I'm asking what is the most compassionate approach. You might firmly believe that eternal torture is what is in store for unbelievers, but do you truly find that to be the most compassionate approach?
o_O

Well that sounds all fine and dandy,
but if doing wrong can be forgiven completely then there is no real reason not to do wrong.
Its fine. Kill and torture a bunch of people. You'll eventually be forgiven.
Thus the result is no real incentive to be as good as can be.
Only if our sins echo through eternity with us will we be properly motivated never to sin again.

Of course, the good we do also echoes through eternity with us.
So while we may go through patches of no torment for our sins,
they always eventually come back to haunt us - for eternity.

Thus we are properly motivated never to sin again.

Its a light and shadow argument. You cannot have light without shadow; nor shadow without light.
If all was perfectly perfect, then imperfection would not exist; so then all would become monotonous - not perfect at all.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
It's been some time since I read through the bible, where in the bible does it talk about angels defying god again?

Revelation 12:7-9 (KJV)

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
If I were God the world would not be much different. People must be allowed choice and see the consequence of that choice. Influencing there lives so that everything is perfect would make them no better than Pets. I would want them to be my equal. This life would be a proving ground those that wanted more and succeed in life. They would be allowed to advance. Those the did not would be given a choice to try again or be given eternal sleep.

Then this world would quite different since a whole lot of suffering on this world is not caused by our own free will.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
According to quran some unbelievers when see the hell say we didn't do anything wrong
God will ask their hands and legs and ...to bear witness against that person

Besides we are his creature
He planned for us some worlds to pass

So u can't question him why did u create me. Because u weren't there to be asked.
So we are completely in his hand.
Eventually I wanna say we are facing with a fait Accompli

I'll never grovel and say I didn't do anything wrong. I'll tell all the "hosts of heaven" exactly why I didn't believe, if they want to hear it... and admit to any "sin" they have me on record for. "Do what you have to do." Is all they'll get from me. Screw 'em.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Why do you feel God(s) should be compassionate?
They quite obviously don't need to be. Though the original post speaks to a specific narrative in which the claim is made that God is "compassionate", among other things - most all of which go neglectfully un-demonstrated in our world most of the time.

However, let's propose that God/gods exist, but are not compassionate. If you, as a human being, do hold compassion for your race as an admirable quality, then why would you throw your lot in with ANY god who didn't "live up" to your own standards of the virtue? Is this like an election in which we choose the "candidate" (god) who best represents us - the lesser of those we consider "evil" on some level? Why make a choice at all? I, personally, have never seen the point to it.
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Then this world would quite different since a whole lot of suffering on this world is not caused by our own free will.

No one has free will. They have choice it is different. Suffering is a choice. Nothing on this world causes suffering.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Sorry, you act like Adam and Eve didn't do nothing. They had it all and perfection and we've would've had it all, but it didn't happen that way. The only way it would not have happened is if they obeyed God or God made them without free will. I suppose one could ask why God gave free will to the angels? They didn't have a Tree of Knowledge as temptation, but some rose to defy God.

It's my sincere belief that Adam and Eve did not exist. Neither did the garden, and neither did the tree or serpent. That story was fabricated to explain why "survival is hard" - and because people like to have a place to stick the blame. It then evolved in the story as a convenient way to state that we're imperfect, sad, sorry sacks of "good for nothing" - which all points to why we "need" God to help us get "fixed". It's a giant mess of complaints, blame-shifting and pity-party nonsense. And people buy it because... hey... survival IS hard, and they ARE sad... and someone should clean up this mess, 'cause they are too feeble to do it on their own.

People like simple explanations - it's soothing. And the fact that so many people take their personal suffering personally has plenty of them casting around for explanations... and usually the simple ones are all they can handle.
 

Tabu

Active Member
You might firmly believe that eternal torture is what is in store for unbelievers, but do you truly find that to be the most compassionate approach?
I agree with you , Purification is the most compassionate approach , and it is not a magical wand but also requires efforts from individuals. Knowledge is that magical flute which we Brahmakumaris believe God plays in the final days which when imbibed by souls , purifies , rectifies and returns them to their initial stage of happiness and bliss.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
No one has free will. They have choice it is different. Suffering is a choice. Nothing on this world causes suffering.

Are you serious? I was just outside... all I did was walk my dog, and the absence of heat was causing me some relatively mild discomfort... which started becoming actual pain after only about 5 minutes. Made me start to think about all the people who have gotten stuck in sub-zero conditions, and either made it out with fewer fingers/toes/appendages or didn't make it out at all. Not all of them had a choice in the matter. When heat is absent, it's absent. Try an ice age on for size. Suffering would happen, and you wouldn't have a choice. Do you seriously think that Earth will always be in this "sweet spot" in the solar system? That we'll always have the "choice" to just "move to Florida"?

A Tsunami hits, carries you through your city's streets, bashing you into anything and everything in your path. Are you saying you don't suffer there, just before the end? Knowing you'll never see your loved ones again - that if they survive they may never find you, etc? No? Oh... I see... you made the choice to be near the ocean - so it's your fault - the suffering doesn't count.

How about a tornado suddenly touching down, with winds blowing so hard it can drive a pencil through your chest. Shouldn't have moved to tornado-alley I guess, right?

An airborne illness evolves at some point that wipes out 90+% of the human race. What's the choice being made there? There have already been examples like this, that handily thinned the populations of certain localities - like the black death. Who chose that, I wonder?
 

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
Pain is a warning and not suffering, you can have pain and deal with it. Death is a release not a penalty. You can have Tsunami's and deal and live with them. People adapt to all types of things all over the world and thrive. People who suffer have chosen to suffer. What you consider suffering some people may consider Joy.
 

Koldo

Outstanding Member
Pain is a warning and not suffering, you can have pain and deal with it. Death is a release not a penalty. You can have Tsunami's and deal and live with them. People adapt to all types of things all over the world and thrive. People who suffer have chosen to suffer. What you consider suffering some people may consider Joy.

A warning that causes varying degrees of distress. In other words, suffering.
Why would you want this for anyone and everyone ?
 
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