Can a rich Church or man get into heaven?

[Greatest I am]

Isn't it bigotry to say that all or most rich people are immoral? or more immoral than the rest of us?

Scripturally speaking, we are allowed and compelled to discriminate against evil and sin even as it says that all must sin to repent and we must repent to gain heaven. Catch 22.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

That's not the point of what Jesus is saying. He's saying that riches beguile us and distract us from true riches: loving our neighbour. He's NOT saying that rich people are more immoral than poor people. Poverty is not a virtue as such. If the poor people were suddenly to have great riches, Jesus would issue the same warning to them.

Like any good economy, we are to keep the money changing from hand to hand.
It is the flow of wealth and not the amount of it, in a sense that keeps an economy sound.

Note that in the present crisis, borrowing and lending is the key to prosperity.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I hope your reading skills improve.

Chastisement without correction is just mean. We are both a little bit mean.

Regards
DL

 

[keithnurse]

Ezekiel 16:49 says "This was the sin of your sister Sodom, that they lived in prosperous ease and did not take care of the poor". Of course we should do what we can to help the poor through safe homeless shelters, soup kitchens, the Salvation Army, etc, etc. But remember all of this takes money. If you want the money to do these things you go to those who HAVE money. Demonizing rich people doesn't help anyone, it just wastes energy. If a person came up with an idea that is legal and ethical and makes a lot of money from it he/she deserves to enjoy what that money can buy and what that person gives to help the less fortunate is his decision alone, not anyone elses.

 

[Dunemeister]

Scripturally speaking, we are allowed and compelled to discriminate against evil and sin even as it says that all must sin to repent and we must repent to gain heaven. Catch 22.

Regards
DL

Are you really saying that scripture says we must sin, ultimately, to get to heaven???

 

[Dunemeister]

Chastisement without correction is just mean. We are both a little bit mean.

Regards
DL

Okay, here's the correction. READ what Father Heathen said. Then compare it with what you said. You'll find that your response did not speak to what FH actually said.

 

[Dunemeister]

Note that in the present crisis, borrowing and lending is the key to prosperity.

Yes, our dependence on usury is a serious problem.

 

[DadBurnett]

Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to get to heaven, he did not say they could not get into heaven. Money and possessions are not the issue, the issue is the heart of man and about where the man's focus is centered, on the riches of this earth or the riches of heaven, on possessions on on his or her relationship with Christ,

 

[logician]

What are exactly are the qualifications to get into heaven, and where is it?

Is it an exclusive club?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Chastisement without correction is just mean. We are both a little bit mean.

Regards
DL

Why won't you be intellectually honest for just a moment and admit that you believe anyone who subscribes to any belief system while disagreeing with you is some how "stupid".

What an ignorant straw man, insisting if I cannot feed the world, that somehow discredits my beliefs. By the way, I do feed many folks in my community. I help operate a food bank. I built a battered women's shelter as well.

If you want to talk about simple minds, how crazy is it to try and convince people of faith that their beliefs are just plain wrong by quoting snip-its here and there while perverting the context of the text to somehow arrive at a different conclusion?

Now comes the complex part, why? You constantly attack religion, being rude and condescending. What is your goal? To proselytise anti- religion?

 

[Truth_Faith13]

Can a rich Church or man get into heaven?
Matthew 19:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Genesis 13:2
And Abram was very rich in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

Matthew 19:24
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

There seems to be a theme throughout scripture that says that wealth is not a good thing yet the Church amasses wealth for it’s own sake and glorification.
Can a Church that does not practice what it preaches lead us to heaven or is wealth actually a good thing.
What comes to mind is Indiana Jones and the Holy Grail.
In selecting the cup of Christ, the proper cup was the poor man’s cup. In contrast, if asked to select the cup of the Church, he would have selected the riches cup.
One has to wonder if the Church is right or if Jesus was.
Many say they have faith in Jesus but few follow His line of thought when their wealth is in question.
Would God reject our rich Church?
Is our Church imperfect because of it’s wealth?
Will God reject the rich man?
Your thoughts?
Regards
DL

The answer is actually in your indiana jones analogy....the reason that was the right cup wasnt because it was the poor cup, but because it showed that he had a good heart and was not greedy or selfish etc.

The importance lies in the heart of the person with the money, not the money itself.

You can have a wealthy person who uses his good fortune to help others...
You can have a wealthy person who ues high good fortune to help himself..

Its the same scenario as the knife being in the hands of a surgeon or a murderer. It is not the object, it is the person which decides the outcome...

 

[Greatest I am]

Ezekiel 16:49 says "This was the sin of your sister Sodom, that they lived in prosperous ease and did not take care of the poor". Of course we should do what we can to help the poor through safe homeless shelters, soup kitchens, the Salvation Army, etc, etc. But remember all of this takes money. If you want the money to do these things you go to those who HAVE money. Demonizing rich people doesn't help anyone, it just wastes energy. If a person came up with an idea that is legal and ethical and makes a lot of money from it he/she deserves to enjoy what that money can buy and what that person gives to help the less fortunate is his decision alone, not anyone elses.

It is to someone else if they are a believer.


Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

As to churches walking their talk------

http://www.chick.com/reading/books/153/153_10.asp

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=54617

http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2007/07/16/660-million-settlement-in-catholic-priest-abuse-case/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2357980.ece
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22334911-26040,00.html

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Are you really saying that scripture says we must sin, ultimately, to get to heaven???

Yes. Why else would God give us all a sinning nature?

Follow the logic and try to refute it.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's will is that none be lost.
God's will is that all repent.
For all to repent then all must sin.
If God's will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, then all must sin so that all can repent and not be lost.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Okay, here's the correction. READ what Father Heathen said. Then compare it with what you said. You'll find that your response did not speak to what FH actually said.

Who, what , where.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Yes, our dependence on usury is a serious problem.

Usery is over 10% no?

My bank charges less.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to get to heaven, he did not say they could not get into heaven. Money and possessions are not the issue, the issue is the heart of man and about where the man's focus is centered, on the riches of this earth or the riches of heaven, on possessions on on his or her relationship with Christ,

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

What are exactly are the qualifications to get into heaven, and where is it?

Is it an exclusive club?

No. read above where I show that all are saved. #33.

Most Christians do not see it my way but my way is right.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Now comes the complex part, why? You constantly attack religion, being rude and condescending. What is your goal? To proselytise anti- religion?[/quote]

Not at all. I am anti what religion has done to God. Made him into a wish list.

They have also taken a bible that is good for religious and philosophical discussion and turned it into a book of fairy tales by believing in talking snakes and seven headed monsters and all kinds of impossible miracle coming out of God's ***.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The answer is actually in your indiana jones analogy....the reason that was the right cup wasnt because it was the poor cup, but because it showed that he had a good heart and was not greedy or selfish etc.

The importance lies in the heart of the person with the money, not the money itself.

You can have a wealthy person who uses his good fortune to help others...
You can have a wealthy person who ues high good fortune to help himself..

Its the same scenario as the knife being in the hands of a surgeon or a murderer. It is not the object, it is the person which decides the outcome...

You are right to a point.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Regards
DL

 

[Smoke]

This indicates that there is a moral way to get rich.

I cannot think of it. Can you?

My old priest used to say that every rich man is either a thief or the son of a thief.