Can a rich Church or man get into heaven?

[Dunemeister]

Yes. Why else would God give us all a sinning nature?

Follow the logic and try to refute it.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God's will is that none be lost.
God's will is that all repent.
For all to repent then all must sin.
If God's will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, then all must sin so that all can repent and not be lost.

Regards
DL

The scope of your intellect inspires me with awe.

 

[keithnurse]

My old priest used to say that every rich man is either a thief or the son of a thief.

I had an uncle who is now deceased who started a manufacturing company with his brother. They became quite wealthy from that business. They hired employees, paid them wages, and people bought from the business a legally manufactured product. Exactly where in that did stealing occur?

 

[autonomous1one1]

.....As to the question of the OP generally, I think the way to understand the text in question is that riches make the here and now one's primary focus. But Jesus calls people to gather riches in heaven, which is to say to be concerned about the things God is concerned about. The problem is not with riches per se. Rather, the problem is that administering and caring for great riches (actually, probably even modest ones) can cause us to ignore what God considers essential: care for one's neighbour.

Jesus said it was harder for a rich man to get to heaven, he did not say they could not get into heaven. Money and possessions are not the issue, the issue is the heart of man and about where the man's focus is centered, on the riches of this earth or the riches of heaven, on possessions on on his or her relationship with Christ,

....
The importance lies in the heart of the person with the money, not the money itself.

You can have a wealthy person who uses his good fortune to help others...
You can have a wealthy person who ues high good fortune to help himself..

Its the same scenario as the knife being in the hands of a surgeon or a murderer. It is not the object, it is the person which decides the outcome...

That's not the point of what Jesus is saying. He's saying that riches beguile us and distract us from true riches: loving our neighbour. ....

Greetings. One must acknowledge the wisdom of Dunemeister, Dream Angel and Dad. :bow: If one couples in the teachings of Buddha as well, it is seen that it is not the riches but one's attachment to them that is the problem which must be overcome through development of Being with generosity, kindness, love, thoughtfulness, compassion, fulfillment of others, etc. as focus. The Kingdom of Heaven is within, is for the living, and is to be found through awakening to one's True Self.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

My old priest used to say that every rich man is either a thief or the son of a thief.

It makes sense that a priest would say this - seeing as he's merely projecting his own experience of how wealth is obtained.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Eat the rich.

Christianity will be lucky if even a small percentage of our clergy make it (into heaven).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The scope of your intellect inspires me with awe.

Aim small miss small.

 

[keithnurse]

Eat the rich.

Christianity will be lucky if even a small percentage of our clergy make it (into heaven).

Only a tiny percentage of Christian clergy are what could be honestly called wealthy

 

[Perfect Circle]

I had an uncle who is now deceased who started a manufacturing company with his brother. They became quite wealthy from that business. They hired employees, paid them wages, and people bought from the business a legally manufactured product. Exactly where in that did stealing occur?

I don't think Smoke believes that necessarily... I think he's just making a relevant comment.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Only a tiny percentage of Christian clergy are what could be honestly called wealthy

Yep.

.....

 

[keithnurse]

How is the statement "Every rich man is a thief or the son of a thief" relevant if it's not true? I think the statement says more about the person who said than it does about "the rich". Facts, not feelings, are what interests me. Most of this "get the rich" stuff is based on pure emotionalism rather facts.

 

[Perfect Circle]

How is the statement "Every rich man is a thief or the son of a thief" relevant if it's not true?

The OP is "Can a rich Church or man get into heaven?", and Smoke commented that a priest once said "Every rich man is a thief or the son of a thief". How is that not relevant? Like I said, I don't think he believes it...

 

[autonomous1one1]

To really 'judge' the value of wealth in the church one would have to see the entire balance sheet. There is a scenario that indicates store up some quantity of wealth to allow sustainability in providing help to others. Look how many millions the Catholic church helps routinely in Italy with dividends (one of those articles gave numbers). If money is given for help as it comes in only, there certainly will be dry periods - or is this a naive, all-wet view?

 

[Perfect Circle]

To really 'judge' the value of wealth in the church one would have to see the entire balance sheet. There is a scenario that indicates store up some quantity of wealth to allow sustainability in providing help to others. Look how many millions the Catholic church helps routinely in Italy with dividends (one of those articles gave numbers). If money is given for help as it comes in only, there certainly will be dry periods - or is this a naive, all-wet view?

That's the only justifiable reason I can see for the Church amassing a good quantity of wealth.

 

[keithnurse]

To really 'judge' the value of wealth in the church one would have to see the entire balance sheet. There is a scenario that indicates store up some quantity of wealth to allow sustainability in providing help to others. Look how many millions the Catholic church helps routinely in Italy with dividends (one of those articles gave numbers). If money is given for help as it comes in only, there certainly will be dry periods - or is this a naive, all-wet view?

I think that is very smart. If you have 1 million dollars and just give it away to the poor or to charities, then it's gone, for good. Or if you invest the money and use the interest money to help the poor you'll have a steady stream of money to do that. This is one excellent reason why having wealth isn't "always" bad.

 

[Greatest I am]

My old priest used to say that every rich man is either a thief or the son of a thief.

I have had many a priest run from serious discussions. Your old one sound like one that would have given me a good debate. He sound wise. I yearn to learn but alas.
I do not mean by this that I am that bright but that those others were not and just spouted dogma and tradition instead of fruitful logic even though God can be understood in a logical way. Oh well.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

The scope of your intellect inspires me with awe.

The fact that you do not refute shows the veracity of the logic. That being the case, thanks for the compliment.

You could take defeat a bit more gracefully though.

Regards
DL

 

[Dunemeister]

The fact that you do not refute shows the veracity of the logic. That being the case, thanks for the compliment.

You could take defeat a bit more gracefully though.

Regards
DL

Wow, smart AND self-congratulatory. Will wonders ever cease?

 

[Greatest I am]

I had an uncle who is now deceased who started a manufacturing company with his brother. They became quite wealthy from that business. They hired employees, paid them wages, and people bought from the business a legally manufactured product. Exactly where in that did stealing occur?

I will let Smoke give his own account but would just like to say that I do not call it theft.
I call it exploitation of the labor force and the market.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Greetings. One must acknowledge the wisdom of Dunemeister, Dream Angel and Dad. :bow: If one couples in the teachings of Buddha as well, it is seen that it is not the riches but one's attachment to them that is the problem which must be overcome through development of Being with generosity, kindness, love, thoughtfulness, compassion, fulfillment of others, etc. as focus. The Kingdom of Heaven is within, is for the living, and is to be found through awakening to one's True Self.

I would add.


Better is a poor man who walks in his integrity
than a rich man who is perverse in his ways.
Prov 28.6

Those statements indeed have merit but are just rhetoric when compared to this.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! For ye have received your consolation.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

It makes sense that a priest would say this - seeing as he's merely projecting his own experience of how wealth is obtained.

Not just his but all men.

How can wealth be morally attained without exploitation of labor or markets?

Regards
DL