can christians answer some questions

[No*s]

are you speaking about prophets and the scriptures or something else?
sorry but i have difficulties understanding thie question, i hope you don't mind explaining it to me a bit more.

Not at all. We are dealing with something difficult.

By "Word" I have in mind a two-fold concept: first we can think of "Wisdom", the Wisdom of God. However, I also have in mind the Word in the sense of what came to the holy prophets. To us, the Orthodox Christians, these two are one and the same.

There's a lot of thought to unpack in that, but I don't know what Islam thinks about it. It would be wise not to unpack it too far just yet.

in islam it says this: when ever Allah wants something (wants to create something) he just says BECOME and (the thing he desires) becomes.
again sorry but i do not undestand that breath thing, i ussualy get confused easily, i hope that doesn't bother you

Don't worry about it. We all do when it comes to God. Some time in the future, I should tell you a story about that relating to St. Augustine when he was thinking about God. It hurts all our heads.

I don't know how to explain this except by analogy with our bodies and to reference the Holy Scripture. Forgive me; it's not an easy thing to explain.

As a man, you have several things in your self. You have a body, and you know that it lives because it breathes. If you see another person, you know they live, because they breathe. When you fall down and get your breath knocked out of you, it is as if you had the life knocked out of you.

In the Hebrew Scriptures God's Breath makes the world go round. When He creates the world, His breath hovers over the waters. He breaths on the Red Sea, and it splits. He breaths into a lump of dirt (or clay) and it becomes Adam. The entire world moves in His breath. It is like His hand that upholds the world, creates things, and makes us all alive.

I know this is a difficult thing to explain, and I do not know the Islamic parallel. I had thought the best analogy would be the creation of Adam, because I heard that Islam also teaches that God created Adam out of the earth and brought him to life by breathing on him.

understanding what?
islam consideres christianity and judaism to be close to it, but just some beliefs aren't exact (example they do not accept Muhammed (saws) as being the last prophet).
i personally prety much understand a lot of things but not all

I read your opening post about the Trinity, and I hoped to explain how Christians came to understand it. I saw that you got a lot of answers, and they seemed to be rather confusing and difficult to read. This isn't a good thing. If someone is going to explain the Trinity, he needs to be very careful and go very slowly. There have been many errors on this doctrine over the centuries, and it is not easy to convey.

I thought I might be able to help, but I would have to go slowly to do this. I also have to make sure we understand our ideas and terms the same. So, I have to ask you how Islam defines something at each step. I apologize for having to do it this way, but weighty matters deserve weighty approaches.

I also apologize for not saying this. I had quoted the post where you asked about it, and I thought that would be a good enough context to indicate what I was doing.

 

[Gharib]

By "Word" I have in mind a two-fold concept: first we can think of "Wisdom", the Wisdom of God. However, I also have in mind the Word in the sense of what came to the holy prophets. To us, the Orthodox Christians, these two are one and the same.

when you say the word that came to the prophets, are you talking about the revelations?

There's a lot of thought to unpack in that, but I don't know what Islam thinks about it. It would be wise not to unpack it too far just yet.

yeah probably. do you wish to know something about islam or is that a missinterpretation by me?

Don't worry about it. We all do when it comes to God. Some time in the future, I should tell you a story about that relating to St. Augustine when he was thinking about God. It hurts all our heads.

if you wish, whats it about anyway?

I don't know how to explain this except by analogy with our bodies and to reference the Holy Scripture. Forgive me; it's not an easy thing to explain.

no problem

As a man, you have several things in your self. You have a body, and you know that it lives because it breathes. If you see another person, you know they live, because they breathe. When you fall down and get your breath knocked out of you, it is as if you had the life knocked out of you.

that sort of sounds true.

In the Hebrew Scriptures God's Breath makes the world go round. When He creates the world, His breath hovers over the waters. He breaths on the Red Sea, and it splits. He breaths into a lump of dirt (or clay) and it becomes Adam. The entire world moves in His breath. It is like His hand that upholds the world, creates things, and makes us all alive.

why would god hold the earth in place with his hand when hes got powers. in islam god has limmitles powers, so theres no need for that. and the world spins because of the will of god, god wishes it to and thats why it does.

I know this is a difficult thing to explain, and I do not know the Islamic parallel. I had thought the best analogy would be the creation of Adam, because I heard that Islam also teaches that God created Adam out of the earth and brought him to life by breathing on him.

does your religion also say that Adams (as) wife was created by one of his ribs (i don't know if left or right). now if you guys believe that too,do you also believe in evolution?

I read your opening post about the Trinity, and I hoped to explain how Christians came to understand it. I saw that you got a lot of answers, and they seemed to be rather confusing and difficult to read. This isn't a good thing. If someone is going to explain the Trinity, he needs to be very careful and go very slowly. There have been many errors on this doctrine over the centuries, and it is not easy to convey.

those answers were alright i understand them

I thought I might be able to help, but I would have to go slowly to do this. I also have to make sure we understand our ideas and terms the same. So, I have to ask you how Islam defines something at each step. I apologize for having to do it this way, but weighty matters deserve weighty approaches.

so would you like to make a start on anything?

I also apologize for not saying this. I had quoted the post where you asked about it, and I thought that would be a good enough context to indicate what I was doing.

no worries

 

[No*s]

when you say the word that came to the prophets, are you talking about the revelations?

Yes, I would mean revelation by that.

yeah probably. do you wish to know something about islam or is that a missinterpretation by me?

I can't talk about this subject intelligently with you unless I learn what you mean by these terms. It is in the comparative religion section .

why would god hold the earth in place with his hand when hes got powers. in islam god has limmitles powers, so theres no need for that. and the world spins because of the will of god, god wishes it to and thats why it does.

They are analogies. God is not human, so He certainly did not shape the world with His hands. Following what I have received, we use images from humanity to draw our minds up to God. His limitless power is far beyond our keen, and these things help...so long as we remember what they are (It's the same thing when we say God is angry or God is pleased or some other such thing).

does your religion also say that Adams (as) wife was created by one of his ribs (i don't know if left or right). now if you guys believe that too,do you also believe in evolution?

Yes. Evolution is not a part of the Deposit of Faith. Some people understand the stories in accord with it. Some people don't. What about you?

so would you like to make a start on anything?

Yes, I'll venture forth to put my foot in my mouth.

The All-holy Trinity is a belief the Church learned from her experience with Christ. God, we believe, is one. There are not three gods, or two, or whatever. He is not bound by any constraint. He is present everywhere and upholds all things. Nothing is hidden from Him and He exists outside of time. He is indivisible, a profound and simple unity.

Before I stick my foot any further in my mouth, is this also the Islamic conception? If it isn't, then I would be interested in hearing what it is.

 

[Gharib]

I can't talk about this subject intelligently with you unless I learn what you mean by these terms. It is in the comparative religion section .

oh, i'm saying that you probably want to make a point from your religion and then ask for the islamic perspective, or am i wrong. is that what you have meant by your previous post?

They are analogies. God is not human, so He certainly did not shape the world with His hands. Following what I have received, we use images from humanity to draw our minds up to God. His limitless power is far beyond our keen, and these things help...so long as we remember what they are (It's the same thing when we say God is angry or God is pleased or some other such thing).

yes i understand.

Yes. Evolution is not a part of the Deposit of Faith. Some people understand the stories in accord with it. Some people don't. What about you?

not me nor any other muslim believes in that evolution theory, we have arguments against it in the Kur'an.

Yes, I'll venture forth to put my foot in my mouth.

ok no worries

The All-holy Trinity is a belief the Church learned from her experience with Christ. God, we believe, is one. There are not three gods, or two, or whatever. He is not bound by any constraint. He is present everywhere and upholds all things. Nothing is hidden from Him and He exists outside of time. He is indivisible, a profound and simple unity.

very similar to the islamic perspecive

Before I stick my foot any further in my mouth, is this also the Islamic conception? If it isn't, then I would be interested in hearing what it is.

no that sounds about right from the islamic perspective too

 

[No*s]

oh, i'm saying that you probably want to make a point from your religion and then ask for the islamic perspective, or am i wrong. is that what you have meant by your previous post?

Yes, that is pretty much what I'm doing. It's the only way to speak intellegibly on the subject. We come from very different backgrounds, and the All-Holy Trinity is difficult to speak about when two people don't have the same terms.

I might as well tell that story about St. Augustine (I forgot it in the last post): Once Augustine was walking on the sea shore, contemplating the nature of God. As he walked, he saw a little girl. She had dug a little hole and had a little bucket. She would go to the sea, and get a bucket-full and bring it back and dump it into the hole. The water quickly filled up the hole so that it overflowed. This sparked St. Augustine's curiosity, so he asked the girl, "My child, what are you doing?"

She responded, "I'm putting the ocean into my little hole."

Augustine thought it was a little amusing, so he asked, "Don't you know that you cannot fit the whole ocean into that little hole?"

The girl answered and said, "And neither can you fit the boundless mystery of the Trinity into your mind" and disappeared. The girl had been an angel sent by God.

I related the story from memory, so don't count on me getting all the details right, but that's the thrust of it. I am asking what you believe along the way, because God is such a lofty subject that if I do not approach it carefully, then I will not correctly explain it (and even what I know is always going to be insufficient). We have to be understanding our words in the same way (that, and I'll learn something along the way).

very similar to the islamic perspecive



no that sounds about right from the islamic perspective too

All right, now I can try and explain it a little better. The Trinity is a way to make sense of what we have received in the revelation from God, and we must use the image of a person. Now is the hard part: putting all that I have asked together.

The Word of God is like our word. Our word exists in our mind, housed in our bodies. We think with it. When want to understand something, I do so with words. When I plan something, I do so with words. We speak this word to others, and they know us by our word. You have never seen me, but you know me to a point, because you have heard my word. That word is an extension of me; by reading my words, you meet me directly.

The Word of God is how we talk about this revelation of God. Just like our word, God's Word is an extension of Him. He is eternal like God, and just like the word we have in us, the Word of God is really not something different from God: He is God.

The other way you can know me is by my actions. I breathe, and my breath makes my body move. My body moves, and I do things. Since I do these things, you can know me. If I run, you can see me run. How do I spend my time? What makes me laugh? (well, you can't do that over the internet, but you can one of your friends). The Breath of God moves in the world. When God functions in the world, it is His activity, and this comes about by His breath. When God slays Pharaoh and his army, it is the Breath of God that does so (the Holy Scripture says so). I learn about the judgment of God from this. When He creates Adam, He breaths on him, and Adam comes to life. I learn about God's creativity by that action. Though the world rebels against Him, He works to uphold it, and we only move and walk in His power, granting us time for repentance. There I learn of His mercy.

Both the breath and the word are seated in our body. The body is the centerpiece of what it is to be human and the center of the resurrection. We birth the word out of it, and the breath proceeds from our mouth. Yet, I have never been without my word. It is me. I have never been without my breath, indeed I cry as soon as I am born.

So we see God being unified with the Word and the Breath both arising from the same simple unity. The Word is what we call "God the Son". The Breath is what we call the "Holy Spirit" ("Spirit" is just a Latin word for breath). The Word is always birthed from the Father, but the Word has always been a part of God, just as my word has been a part of me since I was born. My breath has always proceeded from me, so also the Breath of God has always come from God. There is no division in me between the one and the other, but yet we know them distinctly. So it is with the mystery of the Holy Trinity: these Three are unified in the most simple way. Indeed, since God is simple and unbound, His unity vastly exceeds ours on every level.

How different is that from the Islamic conception (when put as I have put it)? I should stop the post there so you can tell me how different our conceptions are now.

 

[Linda777]

eselam;1317863]the questions that i want to ask are many so i'll take it one at a time.
christians beleive that there is only one god right.
you also beleive that prophet Isa (as) or Jesus (as) was and is the son of god Subhanallah true, right, and then there also is the holy spirit.

so can someone answer this question for me:
if you believe that there is only one god, then the son of god , Subhanallah, who you guys claim is prophet Isa (as)/ Jesus (as), is also a god and so is the holy spirit right.
doesn't that somehow equal 3 gods or am i confused?

God is a spirit. This spirit of God, the Holy Ghost overshadowed and impregnated a virgin, she had a baby boy Jesus. God said in Psalm 132:11 that he himself would sit on David's throne. God did this in Christ.
He was Emmanuel which means God with us.
He was the branch which means `nezer` in Hebrew and this means a Nazarene. He was raised in Nazareth.
How did God come to sit on David's throne?
Abraham had Isaac and Isaac had Jacob and Jacob had Judah (the tribe Jesus came from) then Judah had Perez and this family kept having sons in a straight line (64 in all) until Mary a descendant of Nathan the son of king David gave birth to the last king which is Jesus Christ.
If you follow the descendants of Abraham through the Bible you will find an unbroken line of sons all the way to Jesus.
All through the Bible is the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Then you find it recorded in Luke and Matthew.
We have his genealogy so we can know who Jesus is.
Oh and if you trace Abraham backwards he came from Seth and Seth came from Adam and Adam came from God.
So Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. This is also recorded in 1 Timothy 3:16.
Titus called Jesus the great God and Savior.
Thomas called him Lord and God.
Saul on the Appian Way when apprehended by Yahweh asked the Lord who he was since he was confused thinking he was doing God a favor by killing Christians and the Lord Yahweh answered him that he was Jesus.

I could go on and on giving scriptures that proves that Jesus is God himself, but just one will suffice.
I don't believe in a trinity but in one God as it says in Deuteronomy 6:4.
The trinity was invented by the RCC in the 4th century. It was never a teaching of the early heralds of the cross.
This is why there is so much confusion today because some have tried to fit the First and the Last who is Jesus Christ into a second place of a trinity. The Alpha and Omega as Jesus called himself in Revelation 1:8 is not a third person.

 

[Gharib]

Yes, that is pretty much what I'm doing. It's the only way to speak intellegibly on the subject. We come from very different backgrounds, and the All-Holy Trinity is difficult to speak about when two people don't have the same terms.

I might as well tell that story about St. Augustine (I forgot it in the last post): Once Augustine was walking on the sea shore, contemplating the nature of God. As he walked, he saw a little girl. She had dug a little hole and had a little bucket. She would go to the sea, and get a bucket-full and bring it back and dump it into the hole. The water quickly filled up the hole so that it overflowed. This sparked St. Augustine's curiosity, so he asked the girl, "My child, what are you doing?"

She responded, "I'm putting the ocean into my little hole."

Augustine thought it was a little amusing, so he asked, "Don't you know that you cannot fit the whole ocean into that little hole?"

The girl answered and said, "And neither can you fit the boundless mystery of the Trinity into your mind" and disappeared. The girl had been an angel sent by God.

I related the story from memory, so don't count on me getting all the details right, but that's the thrust of it. I am asking what you believe along the way, because God is such a lofty subject that if I do not approach it carefully, then I will not correctly explain it (and even what I know is always going to be insufficient). We have to be understanding our words in the same way (that, and I'll learn something along the way).



All right, now I can try and explain it a little better. The Trinity is a way to make sense of what we have received in the revelation from God, and we must use the image of a person. Now is the hard part: putting all that I have asked together.

The Word of God is like our word. Our word exists in our mind, housed in our bodies. We think with it. When want to understand something, I do so with words. When I plan something, I do so with words. We speak this word to others, and they know us by our word. You have never seen me, but you know me to a point, because you have heard my word. That word is an extension of me; by reading my words, you meet me directly.

The Word of God is how we talk about this revelation of God. Just like our word, God's Word is an extension of Him. He is eternal like God, and just like the word we have in us, the Word of God is really not something different from God: He is God.

The other way you can know me is by my actions. I breathe, and my breath makes my body move. My body moves, and I do things. Since I do these things, you can know me. If I run, you can see me run. How do I spend my time? What makes me laugh? (well, you can't do that over the internet, but you can one of your friends). The Breath of God moves in the world. When God functions in the world, it is His activity, and this comes about by His breath. When God slays Pharaoh and his army, it is the Breath of God that does so (the Holy Scripture says so). I learn about the judgment of God from this. When He creates Adam, He breaths on him, and Adam comes to life. I learn about God's creativity by that action. Though the world rebels against Him, He works to uphold it, and we only move and walk in His power, granting us time for repentance. There I learn of His mercy.

Both the breath and the word are seated in our body. The body is the centerpiece of what it is to be human and the center of the resurrection. We birth the word out of it, and the breath proceeds from our mouth. Yet, I have never been without my word. It is me. I have never been without my breath, indeed I cry as soon as I am born.

So we see God being unified with the Word and the Breath both arising from the same simple unity. The Word is what we call "God the Son". The Breath is what we call the "Holy Spirit" ("Spirit" is just a Latin word for breath). The Word is always birthed from the Father, but the Word has always been a part of God, just as my word has been a part of me since I was born. My breath has always proceeded from me, so also the Breath of God has always come from God. There is no division in me between the one and the other, but yet we know them distinctly. So it is with the mystery of the Holy Trinity: these Three are unified in the most simple way. Indeed, since God is simple and unbound, His unity vastly exceeds ours on every level.

How different is that from the Islamic conception (when put as I have put it)? I should stop the post there so you can tell me how different our conceptions are now.

well the only thing that i can think of at the moment is about the holy spirit. in Islam or in the Kur'an should i say Allah reffers to Jebraeel (as) or Gabriel (as) as the holy spirit because all the revelations were made through Jebraeel (as).
the rest though is pretty much the same

 

[Linda777]

Never mind

 

[Linda777]

Forget it

 

[Kathryn]

God in three Persons - Blessed Trinity- as the old hymn goes...

Here's how I see it - H2O is the same organically, even when it takes different forms - liquid water, steam, or ice. That's a simplistic way of looking at the Trinity.

 

[Luminous]

God in three Persons - Blessed Trinity- as the old hymn goes...

Here's how I see it - H2O is the same organically, even when it takes different forms - liquid water, steam, or ice. That's a simplistic way of looking at the Trinity.

That's hinduism to the letter.
look at these

 

[Gharib]

God in three Persons - Blessed Trinity- as the old hymn goes...

Here's how I see it - H2O is the same organically, even when it takes different forms - liquid water, steam, or ice. That's a simplistic way of looking at the Trinity.

well the formula might be the same but not the state. at room temp H2O is a liquid, as an ice it is a solid and as a steam it is a gas but it still has the same properties.
so this did happen with god right.
god became a human (Jesus) so then why wasn't he powerfull. why did god let his creations to kill him, he may have had a different state (in this case form), but the formula (the power of god) was the same. if god had no power when he was a human then how did everything run perfectly. i mean it is god who controlles everything, so if he had no powers while as a human then who took care of the universe, the heavens, the earth, the hell, the other creatures, etc....

 

[Katzpur]

God in three Persons - Blessed Trinity- as the old hymn goes...

Here's how I see it - H2O is the same organically, even when it takes different forms - liquid water, steam, or ice. That's a simplistic way of looking at the Trinity.

Hi, Kathryn! (Wow! Another "Kathryn"! And spelled the same way I spell my name, too!) Welcome to RF!

The problem I have with this analogy is the fact that the same gallon of water cannot be liquid, steam or ice simultaneously. That, to me, is like saying that God can be the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Ghost, only one at a time.

 

[Kathryn]

Well, like I said - it's a simplistic example. It's not scientific. And the reason it's not is that God doesn't have to conform to our limited views of the universe, laws of nature, etc.

Personally I think the idea of limiting God to our own limits of understanding is the height of arrogance. God, being all powerful, all knowing, all comprehensive, doesn't actually owe us any explanations. Like I said in another post - this is sort of like the way my dog feels about me taking him to the vet. He doesn't get it, doesn't understand why I would take him somewhere where people stick him with needles, cut his testicles off, hose him down, put him in a pen, etc. Does he know I do all this because I love him? I think that's beyond his comprehension. But it doesn't change the truth -that I DO do all these things because I love him.

Got sort of off topic there - sorry.

 

[Katzpur]

Well, like I said - it's a simplistic example. It's not scientific. And the reason it's not is that God doesn't have to conform to our limited views of the universe, laws of nature, etc.

Yes, it's a simplistic example, and I recognize that it's as good a way as any to explain the Trinity. I guess that's why I'm inclined to disbelieve the doctrine in the first place. God, as described in the Bible, isn't anywhere near as complicated as the Creeds of men have made Him. Of course we can't even begin to fully understand God, but I think He does want us to know Him. I don't believe He wants to be as "imcomprehensible" as we've decided He is -- at least in terms of His divine nature is concerned.

Personally I think the idea of limiting God to our own limits of understanding is the height of arrogance. God, being all powerful, all knowing, all comprehensive, doesn't actually owe us any explanations. Like I said in another post - this is sort of like the way my dog feels about me taking him to the vet. He doesn't get it, doesn't understand why I would take him somewhere where people stick him with needles, cut his testicles off, hose him down, put him in a pen, etc. Does he know I do all this because I love him? I think that's beyond his comprehension. But it doesn't change the truth -that I DO do all these things because I love him.

I can't imagine anyone even attempting to try to limit God. I agree with your example of how our pets must feel when we take them to the vet. They cannot possibly understand why we would be so cruel, when all they've ever shown us is unconditional love. I see that as an entirely different topic entirely, though. God could behave towards us regardless of whether He is a Trinity of three persons in a single substance or a Godhead of three physically distinct persons.

 

[Mister Emu]

The problem I have with this analogy is the fact that the same gallon of water cannot be liquid, steam or ice simultaneously. That, to me, is like saying that God can be the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Ghost, only one at a time.

Hmm...

Actually, as I understand it, there is a point of pressure and temperature, appropriately called the triple point, where a substance can exist in three phases at the same time... that is, under the proper circumstances H2O can exist as water, ice, and steam at the same time...

 

[Gharib]

Hmm...

Actually, as I understand it, there is a point of pressure and temperature, appropriately called the triple point, where a substance can exist in three phases at the same time... that is, under the proper circumstances H2O can exist as water, ice, and steam at the same time...

no it can't. when water freezes it expands therefore it requires a bigger area or volume unlike liquid water. and as a gas or steam it requires a smaller volume utill it will start to react with each other to form liquid water again and it gains equilibrium

 

[Mister Emu]

no it can't. when water freezes it expands therefore it requires a bigger area or volume unlike liquid water. and as a gas or steam it requires a smaller volume utill it will start to react with each other to form liquid water again and it gains equilibrium

I don't claim to be an expert... I just read a small thing about it in my high school chem book, and on Wikipedia...

Triple point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Could you inform me as to what is flawed about that article, or my understanding of it?

 

[Gharib]

I don't claim to be an expert... I just read a small thing about it in my high school chem book, and on Wikipedia...

Triple point - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

where did i say that you are an expert. did you?

Could you inform me as to what is flawed about that article, or my understanding of it?

well to tell you the truth asking me to explain that to you is like asking for eyes from a blind person. i have no idea what it means (i too am not an expert), sorry i couldn't help i hope someone else can help us both though

 

[faithofabraham]

to your original question opening this post.
not all christians are the same in there belief.
I believe that the bible tells that Jesus was the son of God.
I believe that Jesus was a man and prophet of God.
I do not believe that Jesus is God. For there is only one Lord, our Father, God.
The holy spirit is the power of God, which resided in Jesus and resides in us all.
I know it is unfortunate and sad that we call ourselves christians when there are so many divisions, but it is one of the many things that were given to man from God, freedom of will.
Many people believe in the 3in1 but really none understand or can explain it, and so they explain it away that it is a part of God that is not for man to know or understand. An easy way out.

FOA