Can Europe be Saved?

[Kathryn]

Make sure to look me up for a coffee when you're coming to Ireland

The US and the EU annoy the hell out of me in about equal measure. In general when I meet people I expect to like them. I also expect to disagree with their politics

Yay! I agree totally - and by the way, a trip to Ireland would simply not be complete without a cup of coffee with you!

 

[lunakilo]

That sounds like me when I was 14 years old.

I changed my mind about it though

I urge you to reclaim your youth

Why on earth did you change your mind?

I guess I started to see myself more as a european and less as a dane.

When I was younger I had the feeling that some old guys in far away Brussels where trying to tell me what to do.

I don't anymore. I vote for the guys in Brussels to

And I like the EU for its attemps to try and make some kind of community between 500.000.000 people who to some extend all hate eachother (or their parents did)

Besides the current leadres of Denmark are evil, more than once in the last couple of years they have tried to pass laws that where against basic human rights and the laws where only removed after the EU stepped in.

 

[sandandfoam]

I vote for the guys in Brussels to

I don't accept this. I believe the opposite to be true.
What Commissioner have you voted for?
Olli Rehn and Jean-Claude Trichet are calling the shots for my country at the minute. And turning it into a wasteland.
No one voted for them.
The EU is a strident expansionist vehicle for the central powers. What they couldn't do with guns they have done with the EU.
These faceless bureaucrats are the exact opposite of democracy. I loathe the EU and what it stands for.

And I like the EU for its attemps to try and make some kind of community between 500.000.000 people who to some extend all hate eachother (or their parents did)

Community my hat. How many Polish people were allowed work in France after they joined?
It's about money and power.

 

[lunakilo]

I don't accept this. I believe the opposite to be true.
What Commissioner have you voted for?

Have you heard of the European Parliament? I voted for one of those guys.

The Commissioners are not directly elected (kind of like ministers are not directly elected), so I didn't vote for any of them.
They have a Commissioner from each country as far as I remember, though I have no idea who the danish Commissioner is...

Community my hat. How many Polish people were allowed work in France after they joined?

Well maybe they all came to Denmark, there are plenty of polish people here.

 

[sandandfoam]

Have you heard of the European Parliament? I voted for one of those guys.

The Commissioners are not directly elected (kind of like ministers are not directly elected), so I didn't vote for any of them.
They have a Commissioner from each country as far as I remember, though I have no idea who the danish Commissioner is...


Well maybe they all came to Denmark, there are plenty of polaks here.

I voted in the Parliament Elections. It's a complete irrelevance. The power lies with the commission.

As I've previously suggested look at who is ruining/running Ireland. Rehn and Trichet.
Democracy was demonstrated to be a lie in the re-running of the Lisbon referendum here until we gave them the answer they told us to give.

The EU is an anti-democratic nightmare. Voting for some person to disappear into the European Parliament demonstrates nothing.

 

[lunakilo]

They have a Commissioner from each country as far as I remember, though I have no idea who the danish Commissioner is...

Ah I knew that : Connie Hedegaard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[lunakilo]

I voted in the Parliament Elections. It's a complete irrelevance. The power lies with the commission.

This is just a symptom of the fact that the EU something inbetween a cooporation between 27 independent states and a country of 500.000.000 people.
The commision represents the 27 nations.

I am not saying that the EU is a perfect thing, it has many flaws. But I like the basic idea.

As I've previously suggested look at who is ruining/running Ireland. Rehn and Trichet.

I am not Irish, so my knowledge of what goes on in Ireland is not very large.
( Trichet = Jean-Claude Trichet, current president of the European Central Bank? )

Aren't we back to the problems of the Euro from the original article of this thread now?

Democracy was demonstrated to be a lie in the re-running of the Lisbon referendum here until we gave them the answer they told us to give.

Yep, they did that in Denmark too, just with the Marstricht treaty.
But isn't that s problem with the local politicians?

 

[sandandfoam]

This is just a symptom of the fact that the EU something inbetween a cooporation between 27 independent states and a country of 500.000.000 people.
The commision represents the 27 nations.

I disagree strongly. Since it's inception the EU has had a federalist goal. 27 independent nations we are not. In Lisbon and the prior treaties national sovereignty has been hugely eroded. I don't believe it exists any more.

I am not saying that the EU is a perfect thing, it has many flaws. But I like the basic idea.

I don't. I think it's an awful idea. If I wanted to live in Germany I'd move there.

I am not Irish, so my knowledge of what goes on in Ireland is not very large.
( Trichet = Jean-Claude Trichet, current president of the European Central Bank? )

Yes he is. Irelands Gauleiter.

Aren't we back to the problems of the Euro from the original article of this thread now?

The problems of the euro are a symptom of a deep malaise in Europe.
If we had the punt still we wouldn't be ruled from Frankfurt.

Yep, they did that in Denmark too, just with the Marstricht treaty.
But isn't that s problem with the local politicians?

Local politicians were dancing to their masters tune. It's a problem with the EU.

 

[lunakilo]

I disagree strongly. Since it's inception the EU has had a federalist goal. 27 independent nations we are not. In Lisbon and the prior treaties national sovereignty has been hugely eroded. I don't believe it exists any more.

What I was trying to say is that the EU is not a community of independent, sovereign states, nor is it a federation. It is something in between.
The pert you complain about, the commision, 'represent' the part of the EU that consists of 27 independent states, and the parlament 'represents' the federation.

I don't. I think it's an awful idea. If I wanted to live in Germany I'd move there.

But if it wasn't for the EU, you couldn't
At least not so easily.

Can you give me a hint here, why do you dislike the idea so much?

Local politicians were dancing to their masters tune. It's a problem with the EU.

I clearly disagree with you there.
You elect your local politicians, many of whom are EU-freindly. They dance to their own tune and are their own masters.

If you don't want EU-friendly politicians elect some that hate the EU. There are plenty of those around.

When people do elect EU-friendly politicians, it must be either because they themselves are EU-friendly, or because they are stupid and have no idea what they are doing (possible both )

I am assuming that most elections in the EU are more or less fair, so if the people who are elected are for the most part EU-friendly, then it must be because the people for the most part are EU-friendly (or just plain stupid)

 

[Bismillah]

I am just frustrated by the implication by some forum members that Americans visiting Europe will be shunned or thought of negatively by most people. My experiences in Europe don't support that view, and I am looking forward to our visit in a few months. I am not at all worried about how we will be "received," and I am looking forward to spending some time with our European friends.

Hah your friends were just being nice to you so that they could get to know Mr. Franklin a little bit better

Or maybe not, I'm not entirely sure how Europeans view Americans.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Or maybe not, I'm not entirely sure how Europeans view Americans.

On the whole?...with great suspicion.

 

[Bismillah]

On the whole?...with great suspicion.

That's the way everyone ought to be generally treated

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Primordial - that's great. And I think all your pithy comments are really cute.

Excellent we aim to please. xxx

It's obvious that your hatred of the United States (which leans heavily to the extreme end) creates a viewpoint that is more virulent than average. I don't doubt that your circle of friends may share your viewpoint. It's kind of like when you own a Volkswagen Beetle - suddenly it seems like they're everywhere and that they're the most popular vehicle out there.

To be fair I hate the United Kingdom too...but not quite as much.
In fact I dislike the idea of nation states entirely...but anyway.
My friends either don't really give a crap about the US or simply wish we could stop getting involved in their insanity.

I only say this to illustrate that I share my heritage with many Europeans. Though I don't agree with some EU policy, I really don't give a rat's *** about that when it comes to vacation, and I'm sure that the people I interact with while there don't really give a rat's *** about US policy either when it comes to renting us a car, or a hotel room, or selling us dinner or souvenirs.

Well all white americans have european ancestry...that is pretty clear yes...it's not some racial thing Kat...I don't like the way you lot bully and bomb your way around the world...kicking your kind all over the place...
We don't like it...it makes us angry...especially when we get dragged in and our soldiers are dying for what?

YOU?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

That's the way everyone ought to be generally treated

Especially americans.

 

[Kathryn]

Primordial, to be frank, your prejudices keep you from even being able to grasp the point I've made over and over again, which is this:

Though I don't agree with some EU policy, I really don't give a rat's *** about that when it comes to vacation, and I'm sure that the people I interact with while there don't really give a rat's *** about US policy either when it comes to renting us a car, or a hotel room, or selling us dinner or souvenirs.

 

[sandandfoam]

Primordial, to be frank, your prejudices keep you from even being able to grasp the point I've made over and over again, which is this:

Your point is clear Kathryn.

I agree with it btw. When I meet someone I don't assume they represent their government since governments so rarely represent those that they claim to.

I can't imagine any one in Europe will associate you with either the decisions of Obama or GWB. Nor Reagan for that matter.

As you correctly point out - no one will give a rats ***

On the other hand should BWB roll up at a bar and ask for a pint he might find himself on the receiving end of a strong opinion or two

 

[Kathryn]

Hey, if GWB walked into a bar here in Texas, he might have to tolerate a strong opinion or two!

But thanks, Stephen. And by the way, I really liked reading 15 things about you. We could hang out if we didn't have a big pond between us!

You know what - come to think of it, that's what I love about travel and getting to know people from other parts of the world. I love exploring, not only the differences, but the commonalities.

I think it's so cool to be someplace foreign and/or exotic and then watch the people around me expressing the same emotions and idiosyncracies I'd see from, say, my own grandmother. It brings out a lot of affection and appreciation.

 

[sandandfoam]

What I was trying to say is that the EU is not a community of independent, sovereign states, nor is it a federation. It is something in between.
The pert you complain about, the commision, 'represent' the part of the EU that consists of 27 independent states, and the parlament 'represents' the federation.

The EU was born of transnational scheming by a Christian Democratic elite. From the very beginning the future of the EU has been hatched by an expensively suited elite in smoky rooms behind heavy doors and well away from prying eyes.

It's well documented in textbooks and academic articles,

But if it wasn't for the EU, you couldn't
At least not so easily.

I'd get over it

Can you give me a hint here, why do you dislike the idea so much?

Because I'm an egalitarian and I despise those who are well down the path of stealing my freedom.
.

You elect your local politicians, many of whom are EU-freindly. They dance to their own tune and are their own masters.

And I see no reason why I or my representative should have ANY master. People died for our Republic in the recent past and yet our sovereignty is ceded to Europe with scarcely a whimper.

If you don't want EU-friendly politicians elect some that hate the EU. There are plenty of those around.

If only it were so simple. I have about as much chance as someone who wanted to vote for a socialist in Franco's Spain.

When people do elect EU-friendly politicians, it must be either because they themselves are EU-friendly, or because they are stupid and have no idea what they are doing (possible both )

Or that they have no choice. Almost the entire elite and the press are in favour of Europe. Don't underestimate the power of Propoganda. Even with that they made us vote twice to get the answer they required. Making people vote until they say yes is not democracy in my book.

I am assuming that most elections in the EU are more or less fair

They only had a referendum on Lisbon in Ireland because they had to. They wouldn't have it in Britain because they knew it would fail. Other countries too. This 'European Project' is driven by an elite who couldn't give a rats *** about what ordinary people think or want.

 

[kai]

Originally Posted by Bismillah
Or maybe not, I'm not entirely sure how Europeans view Americans.

On the whole?...with great suspicion.

which is exactly how Europeans view each other Lol

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Primordial, to be frank, your prejudices keep you from even being able to grasp the point I've made over and over again, which is this:

Your personal apathy is not an important point Kathryn, regarding your holidaying arrangements...nor one that makes any difference to me..no offence.

If you choose to reply to my posts...obviously in some measure you do care...regardless.