Can God create a rock he cannot lift? YES.

[Link]

Salam

The hardened heart and arrogant soul, is like this. God can't reform such souls often, its rock falling and God cannot lift it, and the ball is in their court. Of course, if they reach out to God and do their part of believing in Him and humbling to him, God will respond if they respond.

But prayer is like a bow, and the action is like an arrow. Without action, the bow has no effect. You need the bow (prayer) to shoot and aim properly and for direction, push, and power, but if you don't do action, and don't embrace the help of God, it's impossible.

Thus even the great Surah Fatiha with Quran and it's place, often, does not save a soul from hell.

So many recite it, yet don't perceive it and envy those who God's Name/Favor/Straight path is upon and channeled to others including Jinn and who God completed his favor upon humanity and Jinn through.

They imagine their own explanation of what the favor and those bestowed are, despite Quran giving an explanation to all 7 of those verses and elaborating them.

Its a sad world.

Mohammad (s) is told if he can connect people of his time with a ladder to heaven or underground path from earth to heaven, to do so, but we see such souls will only become more rebellious, lost, and further away if he connects them to the heaven/sky and say they are a enchanted people and that Mohammad (s) is doing sorcery upon them.

@Bird123 and I are having a discussion about hell. I believe he believes reform of any soul is possible by God given enough time. To what I understand, things become impossible at a point. When the hardened soul to God's proof will be forced the proof, it will humble to it on the day of judgment, but never be more astray in hate of God and farness from God.

Its a component of why this world is what is. Why suffering exists. Why diseases exist. Why natural disasters happen. It is too frighten us and life is short so we take life seriously.

The laughing nature towards the sacredness of God's Names and Religion, is a symptom of dark magic. There is no rational reason for it.

Drink enough of intoxication from dark magic of Iblis, and reform of the heart becomes impossible. God created life and death with hell and heaven as the end result to push us fast towards him and make the journey fast and short towards him. So that we don't delay repentance and realize short life is not worth disobeying God and risking hell.

But alas, the irrational way people bet, and trade the path of ascension for temporary pleasures that are not that worthwhile and even if were are temporary....

It becomes in time, impossible to reform.

God cannot do the impossible.

 

[Fool]

Salam

The hardened heart and arrogant soul, is like this. God can't reform such souls often, its rock falling and God cannot lift it, and the ball is in their court. Of course, if they reach out to God and do their part of believing in Him and humbling to him, God will respond if they respond.

But prayer is like a bow, and the action is like an arrow. Without action, the bow has no effect. You need the bow (prayer) to shoot and aim properly and for direction, push, and power, but if you don't do action, and don't embrace the help of God, it's impossible.

Thus even the great Surah Fatiha with Quran and it's place, often, does not save a soul from hell.

So many recite it, yet don't perceive it and envy those who God's Name/Favor/Straight path is upon and channeled to others including Jinn and who God completed his favor upon humanity and Jinn through.

They imagine their own explanation of what the favor and those bestowed are, despite Quran giving an explanation to all 7 of those verses and elaborating them.

Its a sad world.

Mohammad (s) is told if he can connect people of his time with a ladder to heaven or underground path from earth to heaven, to do so, but we see such souls will only become more rebellious, lost, and further away if he connects them to the heaven/sky and say they are a enchanted people and that Mohammad (s) is doing sorcery upon them.

@Bird123 and I are having a discussion about hell. I believe he believes reform of any soul is possible by God given enough time. To what I understand, things become impossible at a point. When the hardened soul to God's proof will be forced the proof, it will humble to it on the day of judgment, but never be more astray in hate of God and farness from God.

Its a component of why this world is what is. Why suffering exists. Why diseases exist. Why natural disasters happen. It is too frighten us and life is short so we take life seriously.

The laughing nature towards the sacredness of God's Names and Religion, is a symptom of dark magic. There is no rational reason for it.

Drink enough of intoxication from dark magic of Iblis, and reform of the heart becomes impossible. God created life and death with hell and heaven as the end result to push us fast towards him and make the journey fast and short towards him. So that we don't delay repentance and realize short life is not worth disobeying God and risking hell.

But alas, the irrational way people bet, and trade the path of ascension for temporary pleasures that are not that worthwhile and even if were are temporary....

It becomes in time, impossible to reform.

God cannot do the impossible.

so you refer to the hardened heart and soul like a rock. this is free will that doesn't align with god, doesn't align with love/compassion/light. doesn't align with being merciful. it is a service to self, or selfishness. only the heart can change itself and love does no harm. so the will, or free will, is the actuator.

so the self will meet self because of the mirroring, reflection. love allows free will. it also allows the spirit to choose the opposite; which is service to self and not service, annihilation of self in service to all as self.

it is the law of reciprocity. casting, projecting oneself and in return an opposite action

 

[Link]

so you refer to the hardened heart and soul like a rock. this is free will that doesn't align with god. it is a service to self, or selfishness. only the heart can change itself and love does no harm. so the will, or free will, is the actuator.

so the self will meet self because of the mirroring, reflection. love allows free will. it also allows the spirit to choose the opposite; which is service to self and not service, annihilation of self in service to all as self

I agree. The hardened heart cannot break itself though either, but God and his intercessors can't do it unless it calls out to them and permits them to enter their heart and let God and his guiding Masters for humans and Jinn on the journey do their magic and work. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango (usually used if two fight each other or argue, but I'm using here differently).

The hadiths say if a person cries for Hussain (a) that person will enter paradise. Soft hearts put all words in Quran in proper place over time while hard hearts start to place them out of their position overtime and given in to the falsehood and dark sorcery.

 

[Fool]

I agree. The hardened heart cannot break itself though either, but God and his intercessors can't do it unless it calls out to them and permits them to enter their heart and let God and his guiding Masters for humans and Jinn on the journey do their magic and work. As the saying goes, it takes two to tango (usually used if two fight each other or argue, but I'm using here differently).

The hadiths say if a person cries for Hussain (a) that person will enter paradise. Soft hearts put all words in Quran in proper place over time while hard hearts start to place them out of their position overtime and given in to the falsehood and dark sorcery.

god isn't something apart from anything. when the form manifests aspects of god, then god is present. these actions belong to god. the created things didn't create them. they always existed with god and before creation and created things.

god isn't separate, or limited. that is a delusion of the believers.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Salam

The hardened heart and arrogant soul, is like this. God can't reform such souls often, its rock falling and God cannot lift it, and the ball is in their court. Of course, if they reach out to God and do their part of believing in Him and humbling to him, God will respond if they respond.

But prayer is like a bow, and the action is like an arrow. Without action, the bow has no effect. You need the bow (prayer) to shoot and aim properly and for direction, push, and power, but if you don't do action, and don't embrace the help of God, it's impossible.

Thus even the great Surah Fatiha with Quran and it's place, often, does not save a soul from hell.

So many recite it, yet don't perceive it and envy those who God's Name/Favor/Straight path is upon and channeled to others including Jinn and who God completed his favor upon humanity and Jinn through.

They imagine their own explanation of what the favor and those bestowed are, despite Quran giving an explanation to all 7 of those verses and elaborating them.

Its a sad world.

Mohammad (s) is told if he can connect people of his time with a ladder to heaven or underground path from earth to heaven, to do so, but we see such souls will only become more rebellious, lost, and further away if he connects them to the heaven/sky and say they are a enchanted people and that Mohammad (s) is doing sorcery upon them.

@Bird123 and I are having a discussion about hell. I believe he believes reform of any soul is possible by God given enough time. To what I understand, things become impossible at a point. When the hardened soul to God's proof will be forced the proof, it will humble to it on the day of judgment, but never be more astray in hate of God and farness from God.

Its a component of why this world is what is. Why suffering exists. Why diseases exist. Why natural disasters happen. It is too frighten us and life is short so we take life seriously.

The laughing nature towards the sacredness of God's Names and Religion, is a symptom of dark magic. There is no rational reason for it.

Drink enough of intoxication from dark magic of Iblis, and reform of the heart becomes impossible. God created life and death with hell and heaven as the end result to push us fast towards him and make the journey fast and short towards him. So that we don't delay repentance and realize short life is not worth disobeying God and risking hell.

But alas, the irrational way people bet, and trade the path of ascension for temporary pleasures that are not that worthwhile and even if were are temporary....

It becomes in time, impossible to reform.

God cannot do the impossible.

God cannot do the impossible? Maybe so -- I would agree that God should not be able to do that which is logically inconsistent.

And if God is at all interested in me knowing about Him, it is not logically inconsistent that He could take the simplest of all possible steps given His presumed power -- make Himself known.

But maybe that's the problem -- maybe this "God" is like the Wizard of Oz: "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!" See, Oz says that when he realizes he's been found out.

 

[paradox]

God cannot do the impossible.

Sorry but this is not correct answer to the question of "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?"
It is certainly possible for God to create such stone since God is omnipotent.

Correct answer is, God is not willing to do it, do you know why?
Definitions of God - PHILOSOPHY DUNGEON (weebly.com)

God is omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient, omnipresent and it's existence is necessary.

God is superior, which means all other beings are inferior to him.
If God create stone so heave it can't lift it, this would make God inferior and no longer omnipotent.
However since God is omnibenevolent he not willing to harm it's omnipotence.
Thus God is not willing to do it.

 

[Link]

And if God is at all interested in me knowing about Him, it is not logically inconsistent that He could take the simplest of all possible steps given His presumed power -- make Himself known.

God can show you the signs you want, but if the Mahdi (a) comes to you while your soul is averse and hostile to God and submission to Him and shows you miracles, the likely scenario is that you will move goal posts and say prove it's not magic. Proving it's not magic is more complicated logically, so if it's not accepted, things get complicated in the mind fast. The proofs for it being not magic as a rational explanation is more complicated then proving God by arguments in themselves. Of course, it's obvious miracles prove God and his Guide but not when shown, when shown goal posts move quickly and the soul wants to say, prove it's not sorcery. When soul is averse to signs, and hastens them, they become more hostile towards the light.

Of course, to a people who are certain, signs are shown to them. To people who turn to God often, signs and the Guide become a thing in their lives.

The highest signs we can experience in the journey is the type that is unseen light and telepathic connection from God in form of lights of the holy guides. Unfortunately, if a soul is not ready, they will become more hostile to that reality and will accuse the holy sacred lights as trying to possess them or are sorcerers or evil forces enchanting them. This is despite this being the signs that Angels witness at the highest level and there is no more proof beyond that except on the day of judgment, when all signs will be explained, all 8 type, with people subdued as well, and no room to dispute God and his signs.

This is the dilemma God and his Guide find themselves in. They want to awaken individual souls by signs, but they want them to be done in a way that soul doesn't become more hostile.

 

[Link]

Sorry but this is not correct answer to the question of "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?"

Meh, that is philosophical masturbation. I'm talking about a more important rock.

 

[Aštra’el]

Within a universe that He created Himself, the Creator could theoretically program any abilities and any limits it wishes, into anything existing within that created universe- including its own manifestations here.

So yes. I would say- within its own created universe- the Creator could create a rock He can not lift, but I imagine he could also easily alter the code to grant himself the ability to lift it. However… in whatever base reality the Creator originates from, I could not say, as it might not have absolute control over His original universe’s programming.

 

[Link]

god isn't something apart from anything. when the form manifests aspects of god, then god is present. these actions belong to god. the created things didn't create them. they always existed with god and before creation and created things.

god isn't separate, or limited. that is a delusion of the believers.

All good is more worthy of being attributed to God as the source, while evil more worthy that we humans take responsibility. So who is good is by God's help and grace, while who is evil, is evil despite God's grace and help.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

God can show you the signs you want, but if the Mahdi (a) comes to you while your soul is averse and hostile to God and submission to Him and shows you miracles, the likely scenario is that you will move goal posts and say prove it's not magic. Proving it's not magic is more complicated logically, so if it's not accepted, things get complicated in the mind fast. The proofs for it being not magic as a rational explanation is more complicated then proving God by arguments in themselves. Of course, it's obvious miracles prove God and his Guide but not when shown, when shown goal posts move quickly and the soul wants to say, prove it's not sorcery. When soul is averse to signs, and hastens them, they become more hostile towards the light.

Of course, to a people who are certain, signs are shown to them. To people who turn to God often, signs and the Guide become a thing in their lives.

The highest signs we can experience in the journey is the type that is unseen light and telepathic connection from God in form of lights of the holy guides. Unfortunately, if a soul is not ready, they will become more hostile to that reality and will accuse the holy sacred lights as trying to possess them or are sorcerers or evil forces enchanting them. This is despite this being the signs that Angels witness at the highest level and there is no more proof beyond that except on the day of judgment, when all signs will be explained, all 8 type, with people subdued as well, and no room to dispute God and his signs.

This is the dilemma God and his Guide find themselves in. They want to awaken individual souls by signs, but they want them to be done in a way that soul doesn't become more hostile.

You are dodging and weaving without even starting to have something to dodge and weave about. This is always true with religious people -- find ever-more obscure arguments for why God won't do the obvious, or state (before it ever happens) that we evil atheists "won't believe it anyway."

See, here's the problem -- you have no idea whatever I might believe it is is presented to me. I'm not talking about "mahdi's" doing their tricks -- I'm pretty good at magic myself and I know what absolutely cannot be done.

Yet, you just spent a lot of words telling me what I wouldn't believe, and why.

The whole thing is just so trivially simple -- want me to believe something? Show me. In a way that cannot be mistaken. If your god can't manage that simple thing, well, that's his problem, not mine.

 

[Link]

You are dodging and weaving without even starting to have something to dodge and weave about. This is always true with religious people -- find ever-more obscure arguments for why God won't do the obvious, or state (before it ever happens) that we evil atheists "won't believe it anyway."

See, here's the problem -- you have no idea whatever I might believe it is is presented to me. I'm not talking about "mahdi's" doing their tricks -- I'm pretty good at magic myself and I know what absolutely cannot be done.

Yet, you just spent a lot of words telling me what I wouldn't believe, and why.

The whole thing is just so trivially simple -- want me to believe something? Show me. In a way that cannot be mistaken. If your god can't manage that simple thing, well, that's his problem, not mine.

You can ask God to show you signs. I am not one to decide if you will be shown or not. I do believe even if you mock ask him, he will show you signs at some point. This is my personal belief. I can't guarantee you will be guided by them nor that you will be shown. I believe there exists a Guide in every era hidden or manifest, who can show miracles, if you sincerely want to know the truth about God.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You can ask God to show you signs. I am not one to decide if you will be shown or not. I do believe even if you mock ask him, he will show you signs at some point. This is my personal belief. I can't guarantee you will be guided by them nor that you will be shown. I believe there exists a Guide in every era hidden or manifest, who can show miracles, if you sincerely want to know the truth about God.

And you are permitted to believe anything at all that you like.

However, you start thread after thread after thread in these fruitless efforts to try to get other people to believe what you do -- so much so that I can only guess it's important to you. And yet, you fail at every attempt, and again, for the very simplest of reasons. There's nothing to show, no evidence you can find to support what you believe.

So you go on believing it anyway, but really, aren't you content that the rest of us should do that, too?

 

[Link]

And you are permitted to believe anything at all that you like.

However, you start thread after thread after thread in these fruitless efforts to try to get other people to believe what you do -- so much so that I can only guess it's important to you. And yet, you fail at every attempt, and again, for the very simplest of reasons. There's nothing to show, no evidence you can find to support what you believe.

So you go on believing it anyway, but really, aren't you content that the rest of us should do that, too?

No one is trying to get anyone to a view. We are discussing ideas.

I've seen on this forum people say "God should not create hell because given enough time he can reform people and that's more intelligent" to paraphrase as best I can.

Everyone can conjecture and oversimplify issues, we are discussing things in more details, for my own understanding and it's also for the benefit of everyone to understand these things beyond the summary/simplified version, and see the details.

Hell is a difficult concept, but it maybe as Fatima (a) said, God created hell and paradise as a means to pressure his servants to be good and worship and drive them to his pleasure.

That life and death is set up with it, because reform over time (forever) is not possible, and that when proof and reality is shown to full degree, it's too late to reform and love and be good.

As Quran touches all these topics in details, it also helps me and can help others appreciate its arguments in that respect, better.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

No one is trying to get anyone to a view. We are discussing ideas.

I've seen on this forum people say "God should not create hell because given enough time he can reform people and that's more intelligent" to paraphrase as best I can.

Everyone can conjecture and oversimplify issues, we are discussing things in more details, for my own understanding and it's also for the benefit of everyone to understand these things beyond the summary/simplified version, and see the details.

Hell is a difficult concept, but it maybe as Fatima (a) said, God created hell and paradise as a means to pressure his servants to be good and worship and drive them to his pleasure.

That life and death is set up with it, because reform over time (forever) is not possible, and that when proof and reality is shown to full degree, it's too late to reform and love and be good.

As Quran touches all these topics in details, it also helps me and can help others appreciate its arguments in that respect, better.

I suppose that from my point of view, if you really want to discuss how life can be made better, for the most people, at the least cost to minorities, well...

...religion is really not the way to go. Philosophy is.

See, religion always depends on first believing something that somebody else said, then trying to make sense of the world from there. Philosophy asks us to try to find the basic things that we can agree on, and then use our reason to make sense of the world.

Philosophy can help us find ways to make things better for everybody. Religion, all too often, helps find ways to anathemetize people who hold incorrect beliefs. Philosophy would never find a way to advocate for the death of an author of an unpopular book. Religion managed that with no trouble at all.

 

[Link]

I suppose that from my point of view, if you really want to discuss how life can be made better, for the most people, at the least cost to minorities, well...

...religion is really not the way to go. Philosophy is.

See, religion always depends on first believing something that somebody else said, then trying to make sense of the world from there. Philosophy asks us to try to find the basic things that we can agree on, and then use our reason to make sense of the world.

Philosophy can help us find ways to make things better for everybody. Religion, all too often, helps find ways to anathemetize people who hold incorrect beliefs. Philosophy would never find a way to advocate for the death of an author of an unpopular book. Religion managed that with no trouble at all.

You stop your government from their evil ways as its supposedly a secular government, then tell others they don't need religion. Supposedly while any vigilant eye knows its sorcerers and kahens that rule your countries.

The evil coming out of secular governments is a lot more then religious governments today. Fact.

Past is past, the real life situation, is that your secular governments that are high ground in military and power, exploit weaker nations.

And they pathetically try to force every government and country to their world order and debauched ways.

Religion both Christianity and Islam is all that stands in the way of the debauched western secular governments.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

You stop your government from their evil ways as its supposedly a secular government, then tell others they don't need religion.

The evil coming out of secular governments is a lot more then religious governments today. Fact.

Past is past, the real life situation, is that your secular governments that are high ground in military and power, exploit weaker nations.

And they pathetically try to force every government and country to their world order and debauched ways.

Are you talking about my government, Canada? Please provide evidence of what you say, if so.

Religion both Christianity and Islam is all that stands in the way of the debauched western secular governments.

From my point of view, my "western secular government" was all that stood in the way of the horrors of states run by their religions. This was called the "enlightenment." Religious people too often, for reasons I can't understand, prefer not to be enlightened. They prefer to wrap themselves in hair shirts, spend too much of their lives on their knees, and way too much energy trying to make everybody just like them ----

---- rather than trying to simply celebrate what's good about all of us.

 

[Link]

Are you talking about my government, Canada?

Yes, and it's allies (US and Europe). They are oppressors and exploit weaker nations. I will be creating threads about this for evidence. Since you asked for it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Yes, and it's allies (US and Europe). They are oppressors and exploit weaker nations. I will be creating threads about this for evidence. Since you asked for it.

Fine, but to be fair, tell me what your nation is, so that I can research why it is above reproach.

 

[Link]

Fine, but to be fair, tell me what your nation is, so that I can research why it is above reproach.

I live in Canada and been here since I was 9 months old. And what they did and continue to do the Natives is a whole tale itself showing how debauched my government is.