Can we have different beliefs and still have peace.

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes I agree and understand what you are saying. We don't say that Jesus is the only true savior but that the other Teachers are His equal are equal so we are not considered Christians by Christians.

Exactly. That's why it's confusing when you say you are Christian when your brothers and sisters in Christ don't accept you as Christian. Even more so, I assume you haven't taken the sacraments and if you have, do you practice the Christian faith literally? Do you repent, go to Christ so that your sins would be forgiven? Go to the Bible only for truth?

Finding inspiration and believing in Christ is one thing. Being Christian and having a full 100 percent relationship with him and him only is another. Finding inspiration in scripture is one thing. Using scripture as your source and only source of truth is another.

Beliefs are beliefs but when compared to what each religion teaches, to cross them is illogical and strips each religion of their right to practice and have their own space and faith.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Denial, don't accept, haven't found the truth yet, words and phrases bother me. It's saying that they haven't found the truth you found, type of thing.

Sun glasses...

Muslims, Christians, Jews do not believe they are wearing sunglasses and seeing different colors of the same reality. That's all Bahai and UU. They say that they do not need sun glasses. What they believe, they say is reality and other people are seeing false images.

They are not misguided. They are not in denial. They just see reality differently.

Who has the knowledge to claim there is one reality without depending on a specific religion Bahai, Christian, etc? How did they get that knowledge?

That's what I'm saying is that they see reality differently.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's what I'm saying is that they see reality differently.

No. You're saying there is one reality. I am saying they are disagreeing with you. We know this but the problem is that you're seeing that as denial. I am saying it is not.

Christ is a one reality to Christians. It's not their reality. They feel it is the reality for all of us-Bahai, UU, Pagan, all people. Same as Muslim. Same as Jews.

To them, reality doesn't come in colors. There are no sun glass analogies in Christianity. Christ is The reality and there is no room for anyone else at the same level as Christ.

So, if you are to be Christian, you are not seeing through sun glasses. You see Christ as the reality regardless of what other religions believe. If you see Christ as the reality, Bahaullauh can give you insight but he cannot be in the same place as Christ and still say you are Christian.

But my point is: that's like going into my home, being friends with my family, actually love my family, sit at our dinner table....

and then you claim that you are a family member

even though my family does not accept you as one.

I hear what you are saying. I understand it. It's illogical only because in the analogy above, the very fact my family doesn't accept you, you are not part of my family.

The very fact a Christian, Bible, and Body doesn't accept you, you are not Christian. It's from their view because it's their faith. Unless you become Christian fully and disregard Bahai teachings, this point will always confuse me. It could be used in any topic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No. You're saying there is one reality. I am saying they are disagreeing with you. We know this but the problem is that you're seeing that as denial. I am saying it is not.

Christ is a one reality to Christians. It's not their reality. They feel it is the reality for all of us-Bahai, UU, Pagan, all people. Same as Muslim. Same as Jews.

To them, reality doesn't come in colors. There are no sun glass analogies in Christianity. Christ is The reality and there is no room for anyone else at the same level as Christ.

So, if you are to be Christian, you are not seeing through sun glasses. You see Christ as the reality regardless of what other religions believe. If you see Christ as the reality, Bahaullauh can give you insight but he cannot be in the same place as Christ and still say you are Christian.

But my point is: that's like going into my home, being friends with my family, actually love my family, sit at our dinner table....

and then you claim that you are a family member

even though my family does not accept you as one.

I hear what you are saying. I understand it. It's illogical only because in the analogy above, the very fact my family doesn't accept you, you are not part of my family.

The very fact a Christian, Bible, and Body doesn't accept you, you are not Christian. It's from their view because it's their faith. Unless you become Christian fully and disregard Bahai teachings, this point will always confuse me. It could be used in any topic.

However people view us, we consider them all as our brothers and sisters.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

However people view us, we consider them all as our brothers and sisters.

In christian, muslim, and jew you have to regonize how the community relates to you not just how you relate to the community. I can go to confession, take the eucharist, and go back to prayer at the Church but as long as I dont believe jesus is god, regardless of what i think, im a thorn in the church.

These religions are built on community. If you are not accepted by the community, in my opinion, it would be inappriopriate to call you christian, muslim, and jew. Just by believing all three at the same time creates a barrier between you and who you call brothers and sisters.

Its not about words in a book. jesus taught to be with like minded people. he didng teach his father favored people who dont believe in his son.

Believing in his son involves

1. being a christian: having a relationship with jesus and the father only not bahaullauh, mummad, or moses

2. body of christ means community of brothers and sisters. if you are nit insync with the beliefs because you believe in ither people to, you are not part of the body of christ.

3. believing in his life, death, and resurrection. Put the bible and bahaullahs writings aside. How do you live as a christian? how do you live jesus live, die like him, and hope for resurrection like him?

Ending rebirth is not resurrection
Nibanna is not heaven

These are not other names for the same thingm They have their own space, their own truth, NOT one truth. To say that to people who know more than you is inappropriate. Unless you have been baptised in christ, in sddition to above and others how do you say youre a christian.

Thats like going to my home, eating wih my family, saying you love my family, then claiming my family is yours all because you invited yourself to our house. It doesnt work that way.

We have to acept you for you to be family not the other way arou d

 

[Unveiled Artist]

However people view us, we consider them all as our brothers and sisters.

I wanted to single this out since this my overall point:

That's like going to my home, eating with my family, saying you love my family, then claiming my family is yours all because you invited yourself to our house. It doesn't work that way.

We have to accept you for you to be family not the other way around



Another example. I can go to Deaf Community events, interact with Deaf people, work with the Deaf, and even participate in different arts with the Deaf.

But the fact that I am not Deaf and hard of hearing (as in culture not ability to hear), the Deaf community has to accept me not the other way around.



You can go to Mass, pray, do the postures, and even get blessings from god but the very fact that you have not taken the sacraments of Christ (assuming) in the Church, they do not accept you as part of the body of Christ-his Church-regardless of how you feel.

It is not about just how you relate to people. It's about how people relate to you. That is what it means to be part of a religion or spiritual faith. It's about community.​

So saying that there is one truth when each individual religion says their truth is the only truth is a contradiction in terms. It's not by another name. That's not respecting their space.

Respecting their space is not seeing life having one truth but many. Accepting that people are different and they do not have to be part of the one truth that you are describing.

And that is not bad. And that does not cause wars and discord. If we accept this instead of killing people to make them like us, that is where we find peace.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wanted to single this out since this my overall point:

That's like going to my home, eating with my family, saying you love my family, then claiming my family is yours all because you invited yourself to our house. It doesn't work that way.

We have to accept you for you to be family not the other way around



Another example. I can go to Deaf Community events, interact with Deaf people, work with the Deaf, and even participate in different arts with the Deaf.

But the fact that I am not Deaf and hard of hearing (as in culture not ability to hear), the Deaf community has to accept me not the other way around.



You can go to Mass, pray, do the postures, and even get blessings from god but the very fact that you have not taken the sacraments of Christ (assuming) in the Church, they do not accept you as part of the body of Christ-his Church-regardless of how you feel.

It is not about just how you relate to people. It's about how people relate to you. That is what it means to be part of a religion or spiritual faith. It's about community.​

So saying that there is one truth when each individual religion says their truth is the only truth is a contradiction in terms. It's not by another name. That's not respecting their space.

Respecting their space is not seeing life having one truth but many. Accepting that people are different and they do not have to be part of the one truth that you are describing.

And that is not bad. And that does not cause wars and discord. If we accept this instead of killing people to make them like us, that is where we find peace.

It does cause wars. Look at history. Millions of people have fought wars over one side claiming to have truth and the other being false.

That's what terrorism is based upon.

We have a terrible world by people each claiming other religions are false and they are the only way.

Calling Muhamnad a pedophile and terrorist instead of appreciating His truth has led to terrorist attacks.

There is only one truth and everyone wants to say that they exclusively own it. No one has any exclusive truth. That is the myth that is so destructive to humanity.

Why do Muslims say we are infidels? Because they don't understand their own Holy Books. And Christians calling Muhammad Satan when in the Bible Muhammad is foretold so if they only knew that they wouldn't say these malicious things.

This 'Holier than thou' attitude has led to nothing but destruction and this is what Baha'u'llah came to fix by saying we are all one.

We live in one world. We cannot just go around blowing up World Trade Centres because we believe we are superior and others are infidels. And only the Teachings of Baha'u'llah can bring a new attitude of mutual acceptance of each over by seeing the truth in all religions.

Religious prejudice and hatred are destroying our world and you say leave it alone and let it be?

No. any person who wants peace knows that the attitude that we believe we have the only truth and all others are false is harmful and destructive.

We don't support that kind of religious prejudice and hatred. And there's no space for it in our world. Religion doesn't teach this hatred but people latch onto one or two verses and make a big deal of it and then you have your fully blown terrorist. And then a war.

Only proper spiritual education taught by a Buddha or Baha'u'llah can possibly fix this.

Likewise with the racial hatred in America spilling out onto open bloodshed in the streets. We must teach people the oneness of the races not say it's ok to believe in their superiority because that is what is destroying American society.

People believe their belief is superior because they misunderstand their Holy Books and need to be educated that it's wrong because it leads to hatred, violence and prejudice.

How can we have peace if the Christian is constantly publishing that Muhammad is Satan and a pedophile and urns Quran in public? and a terrorist and the Muslim is always saying America is Satan and westerners are infidels and burning the American flag?

And then we see world trade centres and businesses blown up and Muslim cities bombed and innocent civilians killed by drones dropping bombs on hospitals etc

You want that? You really agree with that? I don't. Humanity needs to be educated about its oneness and the common foundation of all religions so they can see each other as a family on BOTH sides and live in peace. If I see you as an equal human and you see me as inferior then it's you with the problem not me.

You're saying that if they don't want to see each other as a family then let it be. Let the world destroy itself. No. we need to encourage and foster good relations and clear up misunderstanding and misinterpretations which have led to these hatreds and prejudices which are not founded on any truth whatsoever.

And thats what Baha'u'llah came for and we are fixing through spiritual education. So we return love for hate until one day love will dawn.

People will develop unity and peace if their Proohet is not constantly openly, publicly called a pedophile and terrorist. Christians should know better as Muhammad was even prophesied in the Bible but you are saying that's ok. No it's not. It's causing hatred so it's not ok and Christ taught love.go to sites like Jihad Watch and the Religion of Peace and just see the hatred. You support that freedom to promote it? I challenge such things because if they are not challenged we will definitely have world war 3.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Everyone is free to believe what they want.

So I do get to keep my belief that engaging in homosexual sexual relations is a capital offence (that should be carried out, and I will do everything to make that happen)? Or that it is God's Law that all disbelievers be forced to convert to my way of seeing the world, or be killed? etc.

Or, from the other side, are you really saying that, as a polysexual man, I should just happily accept (and not fight against, to the extent that I am able) those who would have me executed for my identity/beliefs/'practice'?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

There is a link spiritually between all the Faiths just like there is genetically between human beings. We are one and also we have outward diversity but genetically we are the same.

One DNA spiritually so to speak and one DNA physically. There are no martians amongst us.

When you say 'Faiths' here, do you mean just the 'major religions' you recognise as such (i.e. those who are associated with a Manifestation of God)?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So I do get to keep my belief that engaging in homosexual sexual relations is a capital offence (that should be carried out, and I will do everything to make that happen)? Or that it is God's Law that all disbelievers be forced to convert to my way of seeing the world, or be killed? etc.

Or, from the other side, are you really saying that, as a polysexual man, I should just happily accept (and not fight against, to the extent that I am able) those who would have me executed for my identity/beliefs/'practice'?

You can believe whatever you want. Who can tell you what to believe? No one not even God tells people what to believe. But there is a small matter of the law. If we break the law and kill or hurt we will face the consequences.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When you say 'Faiths' here, do you mean just the 'major religions' you recognise as such (i.e. those who are associated with a Manifestation of God)?

Yes. But many of the other religions are inspired by the Major Faiths such as Mormonism who believe in Jesus and the Bible but also Joseph Smith who was not a Manifestation of God like Jesus.

There are many such religions branched from the main Manifestations of all Faiths like Sufism from Islam and so on and most of them teach the truth and we can accept a lot of their teachings but they are not termed as a major religion by Baha'is because they don't have their own Manifestation of God like Christ or Moses but are more inspired by them. They are not independent religions but more offshoots.

Baha'u'llah often quoted from Sufism and there is many beautiful truths in it so we find truth everywhere not just in the major religions but they are called major because they are the roots or origin of the main beliefs on our planet.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

You can believe whatever you want. Who can tell you what to believe? No one not even God tells people what to believe. But there is a small matter of the law. If we break the law and kill or hurt we will face the consequences.

So you are saying, you can keep your beliefs, as long as you don't act on them in ways that are contrary to the law (or you will face the consequences)...But if I have a fundamental problem with the law in the country in which I live (because, for e.g., the law there says it is a big crime to have sexual relations with another man, one punishable by death, and this means I cannot be true to who I am), I should just happily accept that, and not fight against it? I should be at peace with the law and the people who believe it is sacrosanct? The law should be obeyed no matter what the law is?

 

[loverofhumanity]

I wanted to single this out since this my overall point:

That's like going to my home, eating with my family, saying you love my family, then claiming my family is yours all because you invited yourself to our house. It doesn't work that way.

We have to accept you for you to be family not the other way around



Another example. I can go to Deaf Community events, interact with Deaf people, work with the Deaf, and even participate in different arts with the Deaf.

But the fact that I am not Deaf and hard of hearing (as in culture not ability to hear), the Deaf community has to accept me not the other way around.



You can go to Mass, pray, do the postures, and even get blessings from god but the very fact that you have not taken the sacraments of Christ (assuming) in the Church, they do not accept you as part of the body of Christ-his Church-regardless of how you feel.

It is not about just how you relate to people. It's about how people relate to you. That is what it means to be part of a religion or spiritual faith. It's about community.​

So saying that there is one truth when each individual religion says their truth is the only truth is a contradiction in terms. It's not by another name. That's not respecting their space.

Respecting their space is not seeing life having one truth but many. Accepting that people are different and they do not have to be part of the one truth that you are describing.

And that is not bad. And that does not cause wars and discord. If we accept this instead of killing people to make them like us, that is where we find peace.

So it's ok for Muslims to see the west as infidels and blow up cities and world trade centres? its not ok. They need to be taught a more moderate version of Islam. There is a way of understanding the verses of the Quran in a peaceful manner. You're saying let them hate, let them kill because that's what they believe in? No I can't agree.

That's why Baha'u'llah came to teach us unity. You're saying we don't need unity? It's ok to have these hatreds and prejudices resulting in bloodshed and wars? Baha'u'llah came to teach us all about oneness and we need that knowledge because doing what you're saying is not working. Leaving people to just believe in hatred is not an option. We must encourage and foster love and understanding between faiths.

Terrorists must be brought to justice but Islam needs to be confronted with the violent interpretations being taught by extremists. We don't just lie down and accept it. To do so is welcoming with open arms WW3.

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you are saying, you can keep your beliefs, as long as you don't act on them in ways that are contrary to the law (or you will face the consequences)...But if I have a fundamental problem with the law in the country in which I live (because, for e.g., the law there says it is a big crime to have sexual relations with another man, one punishable by death, and this means I cannot be true to who I am), I should just happily accept that, and not fight against it? I should be at peace with the law and the people who believe it is sacrosanct? The law should be obeyed no matter what the law is?

It's up to you how you deal with it.

The Bahais of Iran are told to give up their Faith or all their freedoms will be taken away and they will be imprisoned so they prefer imprisonment but will not relinquish their Faith.

The choice is yours.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Yes. But many of the other religions are inspired by the Major Faiths such as Mormonism who believe in Jesus and the Bible but also Joseph Smith who was not a Manifestation of God like Jesus.

There are many such religions branched from the main Manifestations of all Faiths like Sufism from Islam and so on and most of them teach the truth and we can accept a lot of their teachings but they are not termed as a major religion by Baha'is because they don't have their own Manifestation of God like Christ or Moses but are more inspired by them. They are not independent religions but more offshoots.

Baha'u'llah often quoted from Sufism and there is many beautiful truths in it so we find truth everywhere not just in the major religions but they are called major because they are the roots or origin of the main beliefs on our planet.

This will enable you to bring a few more religions into the fold, sure. But still only really a small subset of all the religions out there (if we consider all the religions that predate your 'major religions', and all indigenous religions). Not to mention the various forms of Satanism (which you have already said you do not consider to be a religion at all, despite many (all?) card-carrying Satanists feeling otherwise). Are you saying that all religions (including those beyond your 'major' 'Faiths') are spiritually connected, and none of those who identify with these other religions are (spiritually) Martians?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

It's up to you how you deal with it.

The Bahais of Iran are told to give up their Faith or all their freedoms will be taken away and they will be imprisoned so they prefer imprisonment but will not relinquish their Faith.

The choice is yours.

Okay, so I can challenge some people's beliefs, and fight against them (potentially by taking up arms against them)? i.e. refuse to accept certain beliefs held by other people? This would seem to go against your 'you still get to keep your beliefs' statement in your OP. What you seem to be saying is, 'you get to keep your beliefs only if they meet certain standards (as agreed by people other than those holding those beliefs)'. Not everyone gets to keep their beliefs, not really, since they are deemed to be beliefs which should be directly challenged, in order that certain believers can be 'reformed' (be those 'extremist' Muslims or people who believe that homosexuality is absolutely fine and should not be considered a crime).

 

[loverofhumanity]

This will enable you to bring a few more religions into the fold, sure. But still only really a small subset of all the religions out there (if we consider all the religions that predate your 'major religions', and all indigenous religions). Not to mention the various forms of Satanism (which you have already said you do not consider to be a religion at all, despite many (all?) card-carrying Satanists feeling otherwise). Are you saying that all religions (including those beyond your 'major' 'Faiths') are spiritually connected, and none of those who identify with these other religions are (spiritually) Martians?

Just about all the Faiths are connected to the same spiritual source just like we all get our light from the same sun.

Here is what Baha'u'llah says about it that mostly we are all connected so there's not really any outcasts. We are really all one.

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose."
Baha'u'llah

 

[loverofhumanity]

Okay, so I can challenge some people's beliefs, and fight against them (potentially by taking up arms against them)? i.e. refuse to accept certain beliefs held by other people? This would seem to go against your 'you still get to keep your beliefs' statement in your OP. What you seem to be saying is, 'you get to keep your beliefs only if they meet certain standards (as agreed by people other than those holding those beliefs)'. Not everyone gets to keep their beliefs, not really, since they are deemed to be beliefs which should be directly challenged, in order that certain believers can be 'reformed' (be those 'extremist' Muslims or people who believe that homosexuality is absolutely fine and should not be considered a crime).

You always get to keep your beliefs. Your beliefs are conditioned by no one but yourself. But if you fight against others and take up arms against them then obviously you don't want peace. But it is how we act on our beliefs that is important. For instance I can believe homosexuality is improper but still be very kind and loving to those who practice it without harming or hurting anyone.

It is up to each of us to have an attitude that is conducive to peace, that is if we want peace. You have to plant a tree, water it and cultivate it to get fruit so too with peace. It won't just happen unless we are more tolerant and forgiving and willing to overlook humanity's weaknesses and shortcomings.

To have peace we all need to make an effort not just governments.

So if we can stop judging each other and just accept each person as a fellow human being without preconditions then we could have peace but with all sorts of preconditions peace is impossible.

So if we all believe that humanity is one we can have peace if that is our major belief. We can not agree on many matters but if we all believe we are fellow humans we can still have peace.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It does cause wars. Look at history. Millions of people have fought wars over one side claiming to have truth and the other being false.

That's what terrorism is based upon.

We have a terrible world by people each claiming other religions are false and they are the only way.

Calling Muhamnad a pedophile and terrorist instead of appreciating His truth has led to terrorist attacks.

There is only one truth and everyone wants to say that they exclusively own it. No one has any exclusive truth. That is the myth that is so destructive to humanity.

Why do Muslims say we are infidels? Because they don't understand their own Holy Books. And Christians calling Muhammad Satan when in the Bible Muhammad is foretold so if they only knew that they wouldn't say these malicious things.

This 'Holier than thou' attitude has led to nothing but destruction and this is what Baha'u'llah came to fix by saying we are all one.

We live in one world. We cannot just go around blowing up World Trade Centres because we believe we are superior and others are infidels. And only the Teachings of Baha'u'llah can bring a new attitude of mutual acceptance of each over by seeing the truth in all religions.

Religious prejudice and hatred are destroying our world and you say leave it alone and let it be?

No. any person who wants peace knows that the attitude that we believe we have the only truth and all others are false is harmful and destructive.

We don't support that kind of religious prejudice and hatred. And there's no space for it in our world. Religion doesn't teach this hatred but people latch onto one or two verses and make a big deal of it and then you have your fully blown terrorist. And then a war.

Only proper spiritual education taught by a Buddha or Baha'u'llah can possibly fix this.

Likewise with the racial hatred in America spilling out onto open bloodshed in the streets. We must teach people the oneness of the races not say it's ok to believe in their superiority because that is what is destroying American society.

People believe their belief is superior because they misunderstand their Holy Books and need to be educated that it's wrong because it leads to hatred, violence and prejudice.

How can we have peace if the Christian is constantly publishing that Muhammad is Satan and a pedophile and urns Quran in public? and a terrorist and the Muslim is always saying America is Satan and westerners are infidels and burning the American flag?

And then we see world trade centres and businesses blown up and Muslim cities bombed and innocent civilians killed by drones dropping bombs on hospitals etc

You want that? You really agree with that? I don't. Humanity needs to be educated about its oneness and the common foundation of all religions so they can see each other as a family on BOTH sides and live in peace. If I see you as an equal human and you see me as inferior then it's you with the problem not me.

You're saying that if they don't want to see each other as a family then let it be. Let the world destroy itself. No. we need to encourage and foster good relations and clear up misunderstanding and misinterpretations which have led to these hatreds and prejudices which are not founded on any truth whatsoever.

And thats what Baha'u'llah came for and we are fixing through spiritual education. So we return love for hate until one day love will dawn.

People will develop unity and peace if their Proohet is not constantly openly, publicly called a pedophile and terrorist. Christians should know better as Muhammad was even prophesied in the Bible but you are saying that's ok. No it's not. It's causing hatred so it's not ok and Christ taught love.go to sites like Jihad Watch and the Religion of Peace and just see the hatred. You support that freedom to promote it? I challenge such things because if they are not challenged we will definitely have world war 3.

I don't want any religion to say there is one truth because in during so they are taking my culture, my practice, and my religion and making it into everyone else's.

Trying to make one truth of all religions is making other religions conform to how you see truth. That is what causes wars.

Differences do not cause wars. Fighting because of our differences does. IF we respect and give each other their "space" then wars would not happen. But because people feel they have the one truth and they act on it they will cause wars.

Having different beliefs and still have peace means we respect people for their difference to the point of not making them conform to one truth. There is not one truth. Every religion "gets" that but UU, Bahai, and others I cannot think of at the moment. I don't know why since they don't speak for other religions and their beliefs.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Just about all the Faiths are connected to the same spiritual source just like we all get our light from the same sun.

Here is what Baha'u'llah says about it that mostly we are all connected so there's not really any outcasts. We are really all one.

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose."
Baha'u'llah

Okay! I suspect Baha'u'llah might have viewed my religion as one of those which are the outcome of human perversity! So perhaps I'm one of your outcasts! (it's okay, it's not that I mind!)