• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Cardinal Pell and Evolution

Audie

Veteran Member
There are more knowledgeable people than I who say the same thing. (see post 309)
Ah. So solly.

I thought you were talking about historians.
Your citations are just more of the same
dreary business of Christians disagreeing
and/ or denouncing eachother.


Its worse than meaningless when you are addressing
those who see no factual basis for believing
there is anything extraordinary in the entire "jesus"
story.

Meanwhile what I said about the intellectual
dishonesty mandate placed on theists goes unchallengeable.

And trying to shift that issue to skeptics is also dishonest.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
I was replying to @Subduction Zone about the use of 74AD as the first empire wide census in the Roman Empire. It seems he accepts only historians who don't believe in Jesus so they will have no impact on him. Christian historians are liars it seems.


Liars? No more and no less than those earnest young men who show up at the door to tell you about LDS
are liars.
The worn out black and white extremes such as "so you think Jesus was a lunatic or a liar" ox dishonest, or dumb.

Christian " historians" are not likely to be liars as a group.

But there is a major problem with all of their work.

Have you come to understand yet what it is?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Knowledge, or at least what people perceive as knowledge, is acquired through faith also.
You and I have different definitions of truth and knowledge. What you are calling knowledge here is what I call guessing that an intuition is correct without adequate evidentiary support for that belief, which describes religious metaphysical beliefs as with belief in gods and the supernatural. Such things can only be believed by faith and motivated by an intuition or desire. I need more to call an idea true or correct and to call it knowledge. I need empirical confirmation.

Intuition is your brain making a claim to the mind without showing its work. We don't know what "evidence" it is reacting to or how it's arriving at its conclusion. Interestingly, sometimes, we can confirm these intuitions, so they're more useful than random meme generators, but not as reliable as explicit reasoning connecting known evidence to sound conclusions about it, which is the test an idea must pass to rise to be called knowledge for me.
I read of prophecies being rejected for being too specific at times.
I don't believe that's possible. The more specific the prophecy, the more convincing it is when confirmed. Einstein "prophesied" that gravity could bend light and specified how much, which confirmation established one of his theories. Higgs prophesized the existence of a particle at a specific energy with specific attributes, which was found right there confirming his theory of the Higgs field and particle.
I would say that first many historians say to themselves, even if they don't write it down "the gospel must have been written after 70AD". Then they look around for other reasons for this conclusion, while at the same time discarding, for some reason, all the reasons that the gospel should be dated early.
Of course you would say that, but you can't support that belief empirically, so you believe it by faith meaning that the belief doesn't rise to the level of truth or knowledge for me - just what a magical worldview requires you to believe.
He claims to have ended up post 70AD using various approaches but the way he interpreted comments by the church fathers and his lack of knowledge of Apostolic Fathers use of the gospels in their writings, and what I see as his lack of knowledge of Roman history discredited what he said imo.
So imo he was not able to get to post 70AD without the presumption of the prophecy being written post 70AD.
So your entire objection is about what one guy said? Assuming that he's guilty of believing as you say that the prophecies were written after the fact by faith rather than by evidence, then yes, he's wrong to do that. So what? Why is this interesting or important to you?
This one guy did say that this was the common way that the supernatural is treated in documents.
All empiricists and academics treat the supernatural as an unevidenced claim that answers no questions not answerable with more parsimonious naturalistic hypotheses that DO have some or much support.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member


Please use valid sources, not Liars for Jesus.

Of course you can't. Only apologist sources make these false claims.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Who me......... biased against historians........... history of negative views?
Don't you think that the prophecy of the destruction of the temple is evidence for historians who ignore prophecies by saying they were written after the fact.
Don't you think that they use such reasoning in other documents with prophecies and it would be special pleading to not use it for dating the gospels.
Have you never read reasons for the early dating of the gospels? Your bias is showing. There are reasons.
See post 309 and you will find plenty of sites that show historians use the prophecy to say the dating is late.
If you read enough you also will find reason for early dating.
Your bias is incredibly high. You keep making accusations that you cannot support. And when only professional L for J support the claims that you make it should make you think again. Why don't any historians support you.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Liars? No more and no less than those earnest young men who show up at the door to tell you about LDS
are liars.
The worn out black and white extremes such as "so you think Jesus was a lunatic or a liar" ox dishonest, or dumb.

Christian " historians" are not likely to be liars as a group.

But there is a major problem with all of their work.

Have you come to understand yet what it is?
He is conflating Christian apologists with Christian historians. A person can be a Christian and know that the conflicting nativity myths never happened.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Please use valid sources, not Liars for Jesus.

Of course you can't. Only apologist sources make these false claims.
Kind of.
I don't think one has to be a liar, as such.
A liar. Imo, being one who deliberately speaks falsehood.

I,don't think your friend there qualifies. Nor your
apologists, for the most part.

Their collective error ( intellectual dishonesty)
Is as in Kalam cosmo., that of assuming the conclusion.

Once it's established that there's a god and jesus is his son etc., well, one can look at sketchy sources, write a paper for a masters in threality. Get cited.

All tightly reasoned, footnotes, everywhere, and
withal not have one point of contact with reality.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Kind of.
I don't think one has to be a liar, as such.
A liar. Imo, being one who deliberately speaks falsehood.

I,don't think your friend there qualifies. Nor your
apologists, for the most part.

Their collective error ( intellectual dishonesty)
Is as in Kalam cosmo., that of assuming the conclusion.

Once it's established that there's a god and jesus is his son etc., well, one can look at sketchy sources, write a paper for a masters in threality. Get cited.

All tightly reasoned, footnotes, everywhere, and
withal not have one point of contact with reality.
I am not talking about him. I am talking about the sources that he uses. I have not met an apologist that is not willing to lie for Jesus. If they did any historical research into their claims about Quirinius they would know why they were false, and yet they spread their nonsense to the hundreds of thousands or millions. Creationists are not the only people that have to be ignorant or dishonest.

And yes, the assume that the Bible is true and then try to bend the facts to match it. The problem with the nativity myth in Luke is that they have to make Paul's story that you hate so much look as if it pass peer review with no objections even after publishing in comparison. It fails from almost all aspects when one looks at it critically. Especially if one tries to make it concurrent with Matthew's nativity myth.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I was replying to @Subduction Zone about the use of 74AD as the first empire wide census in the Roman Empire. It seems he accepts only historians who don't believe in Jesus so they will have no impact on him. Christian historians are liars it seems.
I would call them liars. I need more explanation. Yes, there are disagreements over when the (1st?)_census occurred. I will check the references and respond.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I would call them liars. I need more explanation. Yes, there are disagreements over when the (1st?)_census occurred. I will check the references and respond.
The problem was that he was referring to apologists. Apologists are not historians, they are not archaeologists, they are not scientists. And I do agree with you. They all appear to be Liars for Jesus. There are Christian historians and they are still Christians even if they know that the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke are myths. The conflict in dating is pretty much unanimous among the historians that I have seen That is because they look so ignorant if they try to defend the idea of a same date.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The problem was that he was referring to apologists. Apologists are not historians, they are not archaeologists, they are not scientists. And I do agree with you. They all appear to be Liars for Jesus. There are Christian historians and they are still Christians even if they know that the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke are myths. The conflict in dating is pretty much unanimous among the historians that I have seen That is because they look so ignorant if they try to defend the idea of a same date.
I would consider those who try to rewrite history to place the census where the Gospel of Luke states liars to justify the inerrancy of the gospels. The problem is also evidence that the gospels were compiled, edited, and redacted after 74 AD by those not familiar with the time of Jesus most likely by Hellenist believers in Asia Minor. There is other evidence as previously described that supports the authorship as later Hellenist believers.

Here is where first-person Roman records of the times trump the later third-person compilations of the gospels as not historically accurate, By far the overwhelming number of academics including Christian scholars agree with the documented Roman history.


The Census of Quirinius was a census of the Roman province of Judaea taken in 6 CE, upon its formation, by the governor of Roman Syria, Publius Sulpicius Quirinius. The census triggered a revolt of Jewish extremists (called Zealots) led by Judas of Galilee.

The Gospel of Luke uses the census to date the birth of Jesus, which the Gospel of Matthew places in the time of Herod the Great (who died between 5 BCE and 1 CE). Most critical scholars acknowledge that Luke is in error, while religious academics have attempted to explain the confusion with historically unverified claims.

Contrary to the Gospel of Matthew, which places Jesus's birth in the time of Herod I,[6] the Gospel of Luke (2:1–5) correlates it with the census:

In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from [David]. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child.
Most biblical scholars have acknowledged that the Gospel of Luke is erroneous.[7] Its author seems to have invoked the census as Joseph and Mary's motivation for departing "their own city"[8] of Nazareth, Galilee, for Bethlehem.[9] Additionally, the author may have wished to contrast Joseph and Mary's obedience to the Roman edict with the rebelliousness of the Zealots, and also to find a prophetic fulfilment of Psalm 87:6: "In the census of the peoples, [princes] will be born there."[9][a]Census of Quirinius - Wikipedia (Luke and Matthew also give different accounts of the family's departure from Bethlehem.)[12][c]

Scholars point out that there was no single census of the entire Roman Empire under Augustus and the Romans did not directly tax client kingdoms; further, no Roman census required that people travel from their own homes to those of their ancestors. A census of Judaea would not have affected Joseph and his family, who lived in Galilee under a different ruler; the revolt of Judas of Galilee suggests that Rome's direct taxation of Judaea was new at the time.[15] Catholic priest and biblical scholar Raymond E. Brown postulates that Judas's place of origin may have led the author of Luke to think that Galilee was subject to the census, although the region is clearly distinguished from Judaea elsewhere in the gospel.[16][17] Brown also points out that in the Acts of the Apostles, Luke the Evangelist (the traditional author of both books) dates Judas's census-incited revolt as following Theudas's rebellion of four decades later.
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
Please res[pnd to post #224 and explain how limestone hundreds of feet thick can form under world flood conditions...
One way could be for example:
Before the flood, dry land, or the original continent was covered with dust, as the Bible tells. There was also layer of material that would be formed into limestone. When the flood came, it carried that material to certain place,w here it because thick layer of limestone.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
No, actually. That would make no sense at all. To purposefully design like that would be incredibly ineficient and wasteful. There is zero reason to do so.
Why would the "designer" for example give the same broken GULO gene to all great apes?
If all apes has same broken thing, it does not necessary mean it was created in to them. It is possible that same error happened and caused the broken thing.

Also, in this case, I think it is possible that in the ark there was only one kind of apes and all modern apes are offspring of those that were in the ark. So, it may be that they inherited that from the common ancestor.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
I can only repeat myself: there is no universal bottleneck in species dated to the same period.
That revokes the whole evolution theory that says basically that genetic variation is increasing.
... 8 people, of which most are even closely related? Doomed to extinction. 0 chance of long-term survival. 0. Zero. Zilch. Nada.
Sorry, I have no intelligent reason to believe you.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
No, sorry, that does not take care of the heat problem. The heat that would be released by attempted creationist models would have melted the crust.
Sorry, I have no reason to think it would have been a problem. But, I agree that there was heating and without all the water, it would have had a different result.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes, we can measure and see erosion is relatively fast.

It can be "relatively fast". The rate is not uniform. It varies immensely. Erosion does not help you.
That is not true.
It is. Give me a testable model and I will tell you how it is wrong. For example you cannot see even all of the stars in the Milky Way if the universe was only a few thousand years old. You could only see a about a tenth of just our galaxy. All of the sciences tell us that your beliefs are wrong. You just do not know how.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sorry, I have no reason to think it would have been a problem. But, I agree that there was heating and without all the water, it would have had a different result.
That is because you are scientifically illiterate. You want all of these rocks to form by magic and to move by magic. You have to keep appealing to magic for your beliefs to be true. You actually denigrate God by turning him into a Step and Fetchit caricature of an incompetent God that had to keep trying to fix his earlier mistakes. You make God look incompetent and evil. You might want to think about what your beliefs do to your God.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, the point is, if you call evolution that your kids are not identical with you, then it could be accepted idea. If evolution means for example that a whale was originally a land animal, but evolved to the current form by the mechanisms of evolution, then it is pseudo scientific belief.

I don't think there is really massive number of species, if they would be defined reasonably.
The study of the phenomenon of evolution is science. The theory of evolution is an explanation of the evidence by scientists using science. Evolution is not a pseudoscientific belief like intelligent design or creation science for instance.

Based on your knowledge and experience in taxonomy and systematics, what would be the reasonable definition of a species that would suit you?
 
Top