Cardinal Pell and Evolution

[Subduction Zone]

I think it would work, but not necessary the way you would like it to work.

History shows you to be wrong.

 

[metis]

I think Christians society, disciples of Jesus, relied on voluntary contributions.

At first, they had no choice but to do it that was as nothing formal was set up, however that eventually was abandoned as it became expected one contribute on the basis of tithing. In Jesus' "Parable of the Widow's Mite", Jesus didn't denounce the tithe, and it is a form of taxation.

 

[metis]

Things are possible as long as it can't be shown to be not possible.

That's not even remotely logical, plus the experience in every single country is that your idea doesn't work-- period.

 

[1213]

At first, they had no choice but to do it that was as nothing formal was set up, however that eventually was abandoned as it became expected one contribute on the basis of tithing. In Jesus' "Parable of the Widow's Mite", Jesus didn't denounce the tithe, and it is a form of taxation.

By what Paul says, people were free to use their own money as they wish.

But a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a property, and kept back from the price, his wife also aware of it , and bringing a certain part, he put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to secretly keep back from the price of the land? Remaining, did it not remain yours? And being sold, was it not in your authority? Why is it that this action was put into your heart? You did not lie to men, but to God!
Acts 5:1-4

 

[metis]

By what Paul says, people were free to use their own money as they wish.

But a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a property, and kept back from the price, his wife also aware of it , and bringing a certain part, he put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to secretly keep back from the price of the land? Remaining, did it not remain yours? And being sold, was it not in your authority? Why is it that this action was put into your heart? You did not lie to men, but to God!
Acts 5:1-4

The verses you post say nothing of the sorts as it has nothing to do with tithing and taxation.

I hope I haven't interrupted you counting your money as that's where you heart really is even to the point of ignoring what Jesus said.

 

[Subduction Zone]

By what Paul says, people were free to use their own money as they wish.

But a certain man named Ananias, with his wife Sapphira, sold a property, and kept back from the price, his wife also aware of it , and bringing a certain part, he put it at the feet of the apostles. But Peter said, Ananias, why did Satan fill your heart for you to lie to the Holy Spirit and to secretly keep back from the price of the land? Remaining, did it not remain yours? And being sold, was it not in your authority? Why is it that this action was put into your heart? You did not lie to men, but to God!
Acts 5:1-4

Two things: You should have read the whole passage and you should have used a more modern translation. They are easier to understand.

Oh wait, and a third thing. It probably never happened. This was a story to extort more tithes from church goers:

5 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wife’s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostles’ feet.

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.”

5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.

7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, “Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?”

“Yes,” she said, “that is the price.”

9 Peter said to her, “How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.”

10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events

 

[Subduction Zone]

The verses you post say nothing of the sorts as it has nothing to do with tithing and taxation.

I hope I haven't interrupted you counting your money as that's where you heart really is even to the point of ignoring what Jesus said.

It actually says that lying about money that you are giving to the church is a major sin and God will get you for that. I quoted the entire passage from a more modern translation. NIV to be precise.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Essentially the situation is the same. If person must work for someone else, he is owned.

Bollocks.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Murder is always wrong. But, because it means unlawful killing, there can be killing that is lawful, as in death penalty, which is not the same as murder. And I think death penalty is not necessary wrong, because I don't think it would be good to allow evil to continue eternally. However, I think that decision should be left for God, not for people.

Doesn't address my point.

Where is that said in the Bible?

John 3:16.

By what I know, eternal life is promised only for righteous:


And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.
Matt. 25:46

And I think it is good, if unrighteous and evil people don't get that, because, if they would live eternally, they would make life eternal suffering for all.

Sending people to heaven based solely on their propensity to worship and adore you rather than on say, good works and helping one's fellow man?
Gross and immoral, imo.

 

[1213]

Two things: You should have read the whole passage and you should have used a more modern translation. They are easier to understand.

They are usually less accurate and help to make wrong conclusions.

This was a story to extort more tithes from church goers:

Why do you think so?

 

[1213]

John 3:16.

Says: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Not: "He supposedly promised eternal life for those who believe and worship and praise him endlessly".

Sending people to heaven based solely on their propensity to worship and adore you rather than on say, good works and helping one's fellow man?
Gross and immoral, imo.

Bible promises eternal life only for righteous (Matt. 25:46). I recommend to think what righteousness means.

 

[metis]

They are usually less accurate and help to make wrong conclusions.

That's actually not true as most modern translations also have made adjustments with the DSS that was not available centuries previous.

 

[metis]

Says: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Not: "He supposedly promised eternal life for those who believe and worship and praise him endlessly".


Bible promises eternal life only for riteous (Matt. 25:46). I recommend to think what righteousness means.

So, what about all the people born before 2000 years ago? Didn't God care about them? And how can one be righteous if they are unwilling to help others in need, which was one main reason for the tithe requirement?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Says: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Not: "He supposedly promised eternal life for those who believe and worship and praise him endlessly".

Sure thing. It says right there you just have to believe in him. We had this drilled into our heads as kids.
What are the first four commandments, by the way?
Annnnd, what is the ultimate sin?

Bible promises eternal life only for righteous (Matt. 25:46). I recommend to think what righteousness means.

And what does that entail?
Oh yeah, doing what God tells you to do. Whatever god says is right because he says it. Then he tells us that slavery is hunky dory. Then he tells us to go and kill our enemies and dash their babies heads against the rocks.
Sorry, this is immoral. However you want to slice it.

 

[Audie]

Sure thing. It says right there you just have to believe in him. We had this drilled into our heads as kids.
What are the first four commandments, by the way?
Annnnd, what is the ultimate sin?


And what does that entail?
Oh yeah, doing what God tells you to do. Whatever god says is right because he says it. Then he tells us that slavery is hunky dory. Then he tells us to go and kill our enemies and dash their babies heads against the rocks.
Sorry, this is immoral. However you want to slice it.

Win frub

 

[Audie]

Sure thing. It says right there you just have to believe in him. We had this drilled into our heads as kids.
What are the first four commandments, by the way?
Annnnd, what is the ultimate sin?


And what does that entail?
Oh yeah, doing what God tells you to do. Whatever god says is right because he says it. Then he tells us that slavery is hunky dory. Then he tells us to go and kill our enemies and dash their babies heads against the rocks.
Sorry, this is immoral. However you want to slice it.

And many a time it's factored into
horrendous atrocities

 

[1213]

So, what about all the people born before 2000 years ago? Didn't God care about them?

I think God cares about them also. And same principle is for everyone, righteous into the eternal life.

And there are two ways for people before Jesus:

1. those who had died before Jesus, heard the message in death.
Truly, truly, I say to you that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and the ones hearing will live.
John 5:25
And, behold, the veil of the Holy Place was torn into two from top to bottom. And the earth quaked, and the rocks were sheared! And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
Mat 27:51-52

2. Person can be counted righteous by this, even if he has not heard of Jesus:
For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as sinned within Law will be judged through Law. For not the hearers of the Law are just with God, but the doers of the Law shall be justified. For when nations not having Law do by nature the things of the Law, they not having Law are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience witnessing with them , and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing, in a day when God judges the hidden things of men, according to my gospel, through Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16

And how can one be righteous if they are unwilling to help others in need, which was one main reason for the tithe requirement?

My pro tip for everyone who wants to understand what righteousness means in the Bible is today these:

Pro. 20:7, Pro. 13:5, Pro. 10:31-32, Pro. 29:7, Pro.. 21:26, Pro. 12:10,Pro. 12:26.

And I recommend everyone to read also all the rest that Bible tells about righteousness.

 

[blü 2]

commentators argue that to ignore a literal Adam would mean that the death and resurrection of Jesus would be pointless and thus Christianity is rendered pointless too.

I disagree with that. In particular I deny that any theology of the Fall can be found in the NT outside of one (two?) line in Paul, and zilch elsewhere. One reason that makes sense is that the Fall is not part of Jewish belief, and Jesus, and the authors of the gospels, are taken to be Jewish, although we don't know the actual identity of any of them.

And one reason why it's not part of Jewish theology is that you can read the Garden story in Genesis as many times as you like, and not once will you find the word 'sin', or 'Fall' or death entering the world, or any of the usual Christian shtick. Instead, God states [his] only reason for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden in Genesis 3:

22 "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden ...​

As I said, the sole reason. And certainly nowhere in the bible does Jesus mention it.

As I understand it, the "Fall of Man" thing arose in the midrash tradition among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE, which would account for Paul's mention. It didn't become stock in trade for Christianity till Augustine of Hippo fell in love with the notion around 400 CE and made it popular.

It may occur to you that the way you sell snakeoil is to tell your audience that although they don't know it, they're in deadly peril of [insert peril here]; you let that sink in, and then you go, BUT fortunately there's one and only one remedy for this, and as luck would have it I have some of it with me, and I can let you have it at a very reasonable price. If your snake is that humans are all fallen and already bound for hell, but belief in Jesus will save them, you'll have grasped the idea.

 

[Audie]

I disagree with that. In particular I deny that any theology of the Fall can be found in the NT outside of one (two?) line in Paul, and zilch elsewhere. One reason that makes sense is that the Fall is not part of Jewish belief, and Jesus, and the authors of the gospels, are taken to be Jewish, although we don't know the actual identity of any of them.

And one reason why it's not part of Jewish theology is that you can read the Garden story in Genesis as many times as you like, and not once will you find the word 'sin', or 'Fall' or death entering the world, or any of the usual Christian shtick. Instead, God states [his] only reason for expelling Adam and Eve from the Garden in Genesis 3:

22 "Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever" ─ 23 therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the Garden of Eden ...​

As I said, the sole reason. And certainly nowhere in the bible does Jesus mention it.

As I understand it, the "Fall of Man" thing arose in the midrash tradition among the Jews of Alexandria late in the 2nd century BCE, which would account for Paul's mention. It didn't become stock in trade for Christianity till Augustine of Hippo fell in love with the notion around 400 CE and made it popular.

It may occur to you that the way you sell snakeoil is to tell your audience that although they don't know it, they're in deadly peril of [insert peril here]; you let that sink in, and then you go, BUT fortunately there's one and only one remedy for this, and as luck would have it I have some of it with me, and I can let you have it at a very reasonable price. If your snake is that humans are all fallen and already bound for hell, but belief in Jesus will save them, you'll have grasped the idea.

The story is even less believable than
gold books of Mormon in an upstate NY cave.

 

[metis]

My pro tip for everyone who wants to understand what righteousness means in the Bible is today these:

Pro. 20:7, Pro. 13:5, Pro. 10:31-32, Pro. 29:7, Pro.. 21:26, Pro. 12:10,Pro. 12:26.

And I recommend everyone to read also all the rest that Bible tells about righteousness.

You conveniently omitted answering my question, and true righteousness involves not only having love for others but also to help those in need, which did and does include tithing and/or paying taxes. You approach is the antithesis of that and is self-centered as it elevates your money over Jesus and God.