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Cardinal Pell and Evolution

joelr

Well-Known Member
It is clear in the gospels that Jesus and His disciples did not celebrate the Passover at the same time the Pharisees did.
Why do you say that at the time of Jesus everyone celebrated Passover on the same day.
The link I gave says Today, Judaism has placed the Galilean last supper meal within the Seder, not the night before. But some in Judaism still keep this traditional way of starting the Passover with a last supper meal the night before the Seder and then the fast.

Back then in Jerusalem Passover was not celebrated on different times.

Bart Ehrman:


Now the only confusing aspect of this celebration involves the
way ancient Jews told time—the same way modern Jews do. Even
today the “Sabbath” is Saturday, but it begins on Friday night, when
it gets dark. That is because in traditional Judaism the new day
begins at nightfall, with the evening. (That’s why, in the book of
Genesis, when God creates the heavens and the earth, we’re told that
“there was evening and morning, the first day”; a day consisted of
night and day, not day and night.) And so the Sabbath begins Friday
night—and in fact every day begins with nightfall.

And so, on the Day of Preparation the lamb was slaughtered and
the meal was prepared in the afternoon. The meal was eaten that
night, which was actually the beginning of the next day: Passover
day. The meal consisted of a number of symbolic foods: the lamb, to
commemorate the original slaughter of the lambs in Exodus; bitter
herbs, to remind the Jews of their bitter slavery in Egypt; unleav¬
ened bread (bread made without yeast) to remind them that the
Israelites had to flee from Egypt without much warning, so that
they could not wait for the bread to rise; and several cups of wine.
The Passover day, then, began with the evening meal and lasted ap¬
proximately twenty-four hours, through the morning and afternoon
of the next day, after which would begin the day after Passover.

Now we can return to Mark’s account of Jesus’ death. Jesus and his
disciples have made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the Passover feast.
In Mark 14:12, the disciples ask Jesus where they are to prepare the
Passover meal for that evening. In other words, this is on the Day of
Preparation for Passover. Jesus gives them instructions. They make
the preparations, and when it is evening—the beginning of Passover
day—they have the meal. It is a special meal indeed. Jesus takes
the symbolic foods of the Passover and imbues them with yet more
symbolic meaning. He takes the unleavened bread, breaks it, and
says, “This is my body.” By implication, his body must be broken for
salvation. Then after supper he takes the cup of wine and says, “This
is my blood of the covenant, that is poured out for many” (Mark
14:22—25), meaning that his own blood must be shed.

After the disciples eat the Passover meal they go out to the Garden
of Gethsemane to pray. Judas Iscariot brings the troops and performs
his act of betrayal. Jesus is taken to stand trial before the Jewish au¬
thorities. He spends the night in jail, and the next morning he is put
on trial before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, who finds him
guilty and condemns him to death by crucifixion. We are told that
he is crucified that same day, at nine o’clock in the morning (Mark
15:25). Jesus, then, dies on the day of Passover, the morning after the
Passover meal was eaten.

All this is clear and straightforward in Mark’s Gospel, but despite
some basic similarities, it is at odds with the story told in the Gospel
of John, which is also clear and straightforward. Here, too, Jesus goes
to Jerusalem in the last week of his life to celebrate the Passover feast,
and here, too, there is a last meal, a betrayal, a trial before Pilate, and
the crucifixion. But it is striking that in John, at the beginning of the
account, in contrast to Mark, the disciples do not ask Jesus where they
are “to prepare the Passover.” Consequently, he gives them no in¬
structions for preparing the meal. They do eat a final supper together,
but in John, Jesus says nothing about the bread being his body or the
cup representing his blood. Instead he washes the disciples’ feet, a
story found in none of the other Gospels (John 13:1—20).

After the meal they go out. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, appears
before the Jewish authorities, spends the night in jail, and is put on
trial before Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him
to be crucified. And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the
sentence: “It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was
about noon” (John 19:14).

Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the
lambs were slaughtered? How can that be? In Mark’s Gospel, Jesus
lived through that day, had his disciples prepare the Passover meal,
and ate it with them before being arrested, taken to jail for the
night, tried the next morning, and executed at nine o’clock a.m. on
the Passover day. But not in John. In John, Jesus dies a day earlier, on
the Day of Preparation for the Passover, sometime after noon.
I do not think this is a difference that can be reconciled. People
over the years have tried, of course. Some have pointed out that
Mark also indicates that Jesus died on a day that is called “the Day
of Preparation” (Mark 15:42). That is absolutely true—but what
these readers fail to notice is that Mark tells us what he means by
this phrase: it is the Day of Preparation “for the Sabbath” (not the
Day of Preparation for the Passover). In other words, in Mark, this
is not the day before the Passover meal was eaten but the day before
Sabbath; it is called the day of “preparation” because one had to pre¬
pare the meals for Saturday on Friday afternoon.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover
meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In
John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day
before the Passover meal was to be eaten. 4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus
is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not con¬
demned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.

Some scholars have argued that we have this difference between
the Gospels because different Jews celebrated Passover on different
days of the week. This is one of those explanations that sounds plau¬
sible until you dig a bit and think a bit more. It is true that some sec¬
tarian groups not connected with the Temple in Jerusalem thought
that the Temple authorities followed an incorrect calendar. But in
both Mark and John, Jesus is not outside Jerusalem with some sec¬
tarian group of Jews: he is in Jerusalem, where the lambs are being
slaughtered. And in Jerusalem, there was only one day of Passover
a year. The Jerusalem priests did not accommodate the calendrical
oddities of a few sectarian fringe groups.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
After the meal they go out. Jesus is betrayed by Judas, appears
before the Jewish authorities, spends the night in jail, and is put on
trial before Pontius Pilate, who finds him guilty and condemns him
to be crucified. And we are told exactly when Pilate pronounces the
sentence: “It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was
about noon” (John 19:14).

Some scholars think that John was using the Roman way of dividing the day, with the day starting at midnight. That would make sense for when (end 1st century) and where and to whom (Gentiles) John would be writing.
So the 6th hour would be 6am which would probably be the same time as in Mark's gospel.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover
meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In
John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day
before the Passover meal was to be eaten. 4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus
is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not con¬
demned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.

That John does not call it a passover meal, does not mean that it is not.

Some scholars have argued that we have this difference between
the Gospels because different Jews celebrated Passover on different
days of the week. This is one of those explanations that sounds plau¬
sible until you dig a bit and think a bit more. It is true that some sec¬
tarian groups not connected with the Temple in Jerusalem thought
that the Temple authorities followed an incorrect calendar. But in
both Mark and John, Jesus is not outside Jerusalem with some sec¬
tarian group of Jews: he is in Jerusalem, where the lambs are being
slaughtered. And in Jerusalem, there was only one day of Passover
a year. The Jerusalem priests did not accommodate the calendrical
oddities of a few sectarian fringe groups.

Maybe Bart Ehrman is correct in his opinion about Galileans not having kept the Passover a day early,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe not.
There are a number of ways that scholars have tried to explain the difference between the Synoptic and Johanine accounts of what happened.
Here is one that does a good job of reconciling the accounts.

In your attempts to discredit the gospels you do miss the significance of them of course.
Here is another site with some ideas, including the one they approve of.
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
But why would God supposedly commit massive genocide and then tell us that it's morally wrong?
People don't have right to decide how long someone is allowed to live, because they have not given the life. I think everyone should know it automatically, because it is just logically so. I believe God gave the commandment for that people could not say they didn't know they don't have the right.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
That is pi, it wasn't called pi by those people yet, but they knew what it was used for because it's describing exactly what pi is used for.
In Bible the two dimensions are not about same circle, other is outside and another is inside dimension, therefore pi can't and should not be counted from the dimensions.
Mark 14:12, the disciples ask Jesus where they are to prepare the
Passover meal for that evening. In other words, this is on the Day of
Preparation for Passover.
But Mark doesn't say it was the Day of Preparation for Passover. Mark says:
And on the first day of the Unleavened Bread , when they killed the passover, His disciples said to Him, Where do You desire that going we may prepare that You may eat the passover?
Mark 14:12

And Passover was meant to be eaten at 14 th day evening/night:

In the first month , on the fourteenth day of the month, at evening you shall eat unleavened bread , until the twenty first day of the month, at evening.
Ex. 12:18
And they shall eat the flesh in this night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Do not eat it raw, or at all boiled in water, but roasted with fire; its head with its legs and with its inward parts. And you shall not leave any of it until morning. And you shall burn with fire that left from it until morning. And you shall eat it this way: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Passover to Jehovah.
Ex. 12:8-11

By what the Bible tells, Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover, as told in Exodus, at 14 th day, when the 13 th day had ended about 21:00. Then they went to the garden, Jesus was captured and later judged in the morning.

Noon? On the Day of Preparation for the Passover? The day the
lambs were slaughtered?
The say started at 21:00, between 13th and 14th day. They had time to eat it about 21:00-24:00, before Jesus was captured.
 

Altfish

Veteran Member
Have you some good reason, why should God allow evil to continue eternally?
But to kill everyone apart from his chosen clan. Think about that, innocent babies and children, killed. Just because your god had a hissy fit.
If your god really was omnipresent and compassionate he'd have known the guilty ones and given then cancer or something.
Instead he chose genocide ... is it any wonder the number of atheists are increasing?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
But to kill everyone apart from his chosen clan. Think about that, innocent babies and children, killed. Just because your god had a hissy fit.
If your god really was omnipresent and compassionate he'd have known the guilty ones and given then cancer or something.
Instead he chose genocide ... is it any wonder the number of atheists are increasing?
Increasing, yes.

And the number who are alamed by
religious fundamentalists can hardly rise
fast enough.
There's no daylight between the capacity to
do evili in a derangrd sense of faith,
between moslems and christians.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So, if you would give life, you would not have the right to decide how long life you give?
No, you wouldn't. That is why you cannot kill your own children that you gave life. Yes, it is very tempting at times. But guess what? It is still wrong.

In fact in general, when you give a gift it is not yours to take back at any time that you want to.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
In Bible the two dimensions are not about same circle, other is outside and another is inside dimension, therefore pi can't and should not be counted from the dimensions.

But Mark doesn't say it was the Day of Preparation for Passover. Mark says:
And on the first day of the Unleavened Bread , when they killed the passover, His disciples said to Him, Where do You desire that going we may prepare that You may eat the passover?
Mark 14:12

And Passover was meant to be eaten at 14 th day evening/night:

In the first month , on the fourteenth day of the month, at evening you shall eat unleavened bread , until the twenty first day of the month, at evening.
Ex. 12:18
And they shall eat the flesh in this night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Do not eat it raw, or at all boiled in water, but roasted with fire; its head with its legs and with its inward parts. And you shall not leave any of it until morning. And you shall burn with fire that left from it until morning. And you shall eat it this way: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Passover to Jehovah.
Ex. 12:8-11

By what the Bible tells, Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover, as told in Exodus, at 14 th day, when the 13 th day had ended about 21:00. Then they went to the garden, Jesus was captured and later judged in the morning.


The say started at 21:00, between 13th and 14th day. They had time to eat it about 21:00-24:00, before Jesus was captured.
Oh right. Nobody even knows what year
this ( supposedly) happened.
But you have a timetable.

As if.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Some scholars think that John was using the Roman way of dividing the day, with the day starting at midnight. That would make sense for when (end 1st century) and where and to whom (Gentiles) John would be writing.
So the 6th hour would be 6am which would probably be the same time as in Mark's gospel.



That John does not call it a passover meal, does not mean that it is not.



Maybe Bart Ehrman is correct in his opinion about Galileans not having kept the Passover a day early,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe not.
There are a number of ways that scholars have tried to explain the difference between the Synoptic and Johanine accounts of what happened.
Here is one that does a good job of reconciling the accounts.

In your attempts to discredit the gospels you do miss the significance of them of course.
Here is another site with some ideas, including the one they approve of.
They discredit themselves
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Some scholars think that John was using the Roman way of dividing the day, with the day starting at midnight. That would make sense for when (end 1st century) and where and to whom (Gentiles) John would be writing.
So the 6th hour would be 6am which would probably be the same time as in Mark's gospel.



That John does not call it a passover meal, does not mean that it is not.



Maybe Bart Ehrman is correct in his opinion about Galileans not having kept the Passover a day early,,,,,,,,,,,,, maybe not.
There are a number of ways that scholars have tried to explain the difference between the Synoptic and Johanine accounts of what happened.
Here is one that does a good job of reconciling the accounts.

In your attempts to discredit the gospels you do miss the significance of them of course.
Here is another site with some ideas, including the one they approve of.
The link mostly admits scholars have accepted there are different accounts. One solution, admittedly speculation, is a bribe took place?

The writings in John are around 60 years after the fact, which supports Ehrman's theory perfectly. None are attempting to tell history, they are telling a story.
John changed the theology of the story, making Jesus the sacrificial lamb, which is why he moved the time of the crucifixion. So Jesus can be the sacrificial lamb and remove sins. This fits the idea that this is not a historical event but a story, being told by different writers.



"I do not think this is a difference that can be reconciled. People
over the years have tried, of course. Some have pointed out that
Mark also indicates that Jesus died on a day that is called “the Day
of Preparation” (Mark 15:42). That is absolutely true—but what
these readers fail to notice is that Mark tells us what he means by
this phrase: it is the Day of Preparation “for the Sabbath” (not the
Day of Preparation for the Passover). In other words, in Mark, this
is not the day before the Passover meal was eaten but the day before
Sabbath; it is called the day of “preparation” because one had to pre¬
pare the meals for Saturday on Friday afternoon.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover
meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In
John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day
before the Passover meal was to be eaten. 4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus
is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not con¬
demned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.

Some scholars have argued that we have this difference between
the Gospels because different Jews celebrated Passover on different
days of the week. This is one of those explanations that sounds plau¬
sible until you dig a bit and think a bit more. It is true that some sec¬
tarian groups not connected with the Temple in Jerusalem thought
that the Temple authorities followed an incorrect calendar. But in
both Mark and John, Jesus is not outside Jerusalem with some sec¬
tarian group of Jews: he is in Jerusalem, where the lambs are being
slaughtered. And in Jerusalem, there was only one day of Passover
a year. The Jerusalem priests did not accommodate the calendrical
oddities of a few sectarian fringe groups.

What is one to make of this contradiction? Again, on one level it
seems like a rather minor point. I mean, who really cares if it was
one day or the next? The point is that Jesus got crucified, right?

Well, that is both right and wrong. Another question to ask is not
“Was Jesus crucified?” but also “What does it mean that Jesus was
crucified?” And for this, little details like the day and time actu¬
ally matter. The way I explain the importance of such minutiae to
my students is this: When, today, a homicide is committed, and the
police detectives come in to the crime scene, they begin searching
for little scraps of evidence, looking for the trace of a fingerprint
or a strand of hair on the floor. Someone might reasonably look at
what they are doing and say, “What’s wrong with you? Can’t you
see that there’s a dead body on the floor? Why are you snooping
around for a fingerprint?” Yet sometimes the smallest clue can
lead to a solution of the case. Why, and by whom, was this person
killed? So, too, with the Gospels. Sometimes the smallest piece of
evidence can give important clues about what the author thought
was really going on.

I can’t give a full analysis here, but I will point out a significant
feature of John’s Gospel—the last of our Gospels to be written,
probably some twenty-five years or so after Mark’s. John is the only
Gospel that indicates that Jesus is “the lamb of God who takes away
the sins of the world.” This is declared by John the Baptist at the
very beginning of the narrative (John 1:29) and again six verses
later (John 1:35). Why, then, did John—our latest Gospel—change
the day and time when Jesus died? It may be because in John’s
Gospel, Jesus is the Passover Lamb, whose sacrifice brings salvation
from sins. Exactly like the Passover Lamb, Jesus has to die on the
day (the Day of Preparation) and the time (sometime after noon),
when the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple.

In other words, John has changed a historical datum in order to
make a theological point: Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. And to convey
this theological point, John has had to create a discrepancy between
his account and the others.”
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
In Bible the two dimensions are not about same circle, other is outside and another is inside dimension, therefore pi can't and should not be counted from the dimensions.

There is no source, even fundamentalist, that doesn't think the scripture is talking about pi. They just find ways to get aroound the fact that it's the wrong amount:
But Mark doesn't say it was the Day of Preparation for Passover. Mark says:
And on the first day of the Unleavened Bread , when they killed the passover, His disciples said to Him, Where do You desire that going we may prepare that You may eat the passover?
Mark 14:12

And Passover was meant to be eaten at 14 th day evening/night:

In the first month , on the fourteenth day of the month, at evening you shall eat unleavened bread , until the twenty first day of the month, at evening.
Ex. 12:18
And they shall eat the flesh in this night, roasted with fire, and they shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs. Do not eat it raw, or at all boiled in water, but roasted with fire; its head with its legs and with its inward parts. And you shall not leave any of it until morning. And you shall burn with fire that left from it until morning. And you shall eat it this way: with your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the Passover to Jehovah.
Ex. 12:8-11

By what the Bible tells, Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover, as told in Exodus, at 14 th day, when the 13 th day had ended about 21:00. Then they went to the garden, Jesus was captured and later judged in the morning.


The say started at 21:00, between 13th and 14th day. They had time to eat it about 21:00-24:00, before Jesus was captured.

...over the years have tried, of course. Some have pointed out that
Mark also indicates that Jesus died on a day that is called “the Day
of Preparation” (Mark 15:42). That is absolutely true—but what
these readers fail to notice is that Mark tells us what he means by
this phrase: it is the Day of Preparation “for the Sabbath” (not the
Day of Preparation for the Passover). In other words, in Mark, this
is not the day before the Passover meal was eaten but the day before
Sabbath; it is called the day of “preparation” because one had to pre¬
pare the meals for Saturday on Friday afternoon.

And so the contradiction stands: in Mark, Jesus eats the Passover
meal (Thursday night) and is crucified the following morning. In
John, Jesus does not eat the Passover meal but is crucified on the day
before the Passover meal was to be eaten. 4 Moreover, in Mark, Jesus
is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not con¬
demned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
There is no source, even fundamentalist, that doesn't think the scripture is talking about pi.
That is sad, because obviously the two dimensions are not about the same circle.
...over the years have tried, of course. Some have pointed out that
Mark also indicates that Jesus died on a day that is called “the Day
of Preparation” (Mark 15:42). That is absolutely true—but what
these readers fail to notice is that Mark tells us what he means by
this phrase: it is the Day of Preparation “for the Sabbath” (not the
Day of Preparation for the Passover). In other words, in Mark, this
is not the day before the Passover meal was eaten but the day before
Sabbath; it is called the day of “preparation” because one had to pre¬
pare the meals for Saturday on Friday afternoon.
I hope everyone understands it was not for the weekly Shabbat. There was and is Passsover Shabbat, or more accurately two Shabbat days for the feast of unleavened bread.

On the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread to Yahweh. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. In the first day you shall have a holy convocation. You shall do no regular work. But you shall offer an offering made by fire to Yahweh seven days. In the seventh day is a holy convocation: you shall do no regular work.'"
Lev. 23:6-8

So, Jesus and his disciples ate the Passover meal at the beginning of 14th day (about 21:00), Jesus was captured in the night and his trial was in the morning. And after he had died, they wanted to bury him before the 15th day Shabbat that was then most likely Thursday.
Moreover, in Mark, Jesus
is nailed to the cross at nine in the morning; in John, he is not con¬
demned until noon, and then he is taken out and crucified.
Could it be that John is speaking of the 6th moment of night and the interpretation that it means noon is wrong?
 
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